I gave Myles and Monkeyvomit the benefit of the doubt, and took them at face value, but I gotta admit the thought crossed my mind that a couple of LECies were playing "stump the band." Monkeyvomit just vanished. Myles began by saying he might not have done the Forum if he'd known more, then proceeded to discount everything which was said. You'd think these ~enlightened~ folks would have better things to do with their time. I don't see how being ~inauthentic~ makes the world a better place.

estie

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midonov123

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Myles
[I want to get an idea of how your opinion was formed and is it tested.

For example: I can read about sex and I can watch a movie about sex. That would be knowledge. It is absolutely possible to form an opinion for myself from having studied those resources. However, once I had experienced sex; I had a much deeper foundation from which to form my own opinion. When you add knowledge together with experience, the opinion has been tested.

Is your opinion is based on knowledge, on experience, or based on both?

I can read about cults and I can watch movies (documentaries) about cults and talk with expert about cults. That is knowledge. If I experience a cult, I become a victim of deception and without knowledge. Your mind sucking trick is not working here. It is clear that you are a Landmark zealot who wants to "share your new possibilities" with us, but we are not dupe. And if you want to insist that I am running a racket, I couldn't care less. This means you are being cultish, which confirms my knowledge. Do you get it? I've been through all of this with my ex who was a Landmark advanced graduate, introduction leader and seminar leader.

So in a sense, I am talking with knowledge and experience resisting a subtle enrolling racket from a personal coach that was using all the tricks she had learned (reciprocity, consistency, liking, authority, but most of all deception and lying).

sorry to hear that you weren't able to keep your marriage together. you might want to consider that you could be blaming landmark education for your failed marriage. there's probably a lot associated with that.

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skinnie
sorry to hear that you weren't able to keep your marriage together. you might want to consider that you could be blaming landmark education for your failed marriage. there's probably a lot associated with that.

I can't believe this crap. :roll: You all sound the same. How many of you are there anyway? I know all about this type of argument. Of course we could'nt have a relationship BECAUSE of Landmark. It's IMPOSSIBLE to be in a relationship with someone in Landmark if you stick to your gun and realise what's really going on. And we were only arguing ABOUT Landmark.

You see Skinnie, the point that you're missing is that Landmark doesn't want to take responsibility for their own act when they cause people to react. It's much easier to blame the participant than to blame Landmark's mind twisting nonsense for causing problems in relationships. Another paradox!

And I never said anything about my marriage. That's a complete different story and it's nobody's business. I will not tolerate any comments about that.

Landmark, Like [b:6fbb813016] est [/b:6fbb813016] before it, doesn't have the perceptual or intellectual flexibility to "see themselves in the round" ... their processes affect people in a wide range of ways... some report benefits and some report destructive outcomes, and there's a lot of ambivalent stuff in the middle. At the root of it they are [b:6fbb813016] rigidly systematic [/b:6fbb813016] ... the trainers have no idea what to do if they go off book, when they have to express themselves ex-tempore ... I've had such peculiar experiences with them when I was trying to explain and express useful concepts to them in non-est, non-Landmark standardized expressions, and they appeared to be unable to process what I was saying, as if they could not hear any other descriptions of consciousness expansion other that theirs. What was up with that ? I found only when I "translated" into Werner-speak could they, or would they be capable of hearing what I was saying.... it was like exploring some isolated, xenophobic people who knew that the navel of the universe was in the center of their village that could only discourse in an obscure dialect.... they have this wacked out way of thinking that language itself has mysterious creative powers, and one must "speak to possibility" (cast spells ? what ?) just so... so a lot of it is this odd belief in
the vitality of their language, or their languaging, is somehow potent, and [b:6fbb813016] common speech is somehow impotent [/b:6fbb813016] ... so it is therefore essential for you to get into [b:6fbb813016] their conversation [/b:6fbb813016] and equally essential for them not to get into your conversation.... from a [b:6fbb813016] Frame Theory [/b:6fbb813016] perspective, they feel that it is imperative to maintain frame control or frame dominance at all times, or in social settings maybe hang out for a while in a [b:6fbb813016] slack frame [/b:6fbb813016] then switch on frame dominance when the enrollment conversation comes up.... The feeling around this is immature, adolescent demanding.... a rigid, self satisfied truthiness... no different in my experience from the recruiters for the Unification Church...

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Dynamix
Myles, if you hear about anyone dropping out during your advanced course, really think about it, okay?

Dynamix,
I appreciate you taking the time to tell me your story. You have me thinking.

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rrmoderator
LGAT, which means large group awareness training, that's what groups like Landmark, NXVIM, Lifespring, Sterling, Impact and an assortment of other seminar weekends are frequently called.

Another common title is "mass marathon training."

See [www.culteducation.com]

This covers the common features and problems of such trainings.

Okay. Thanks.

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estie
I gave Myles and Monkeyvomit the benefit of the doubt, and took them at face value, but I gotta admit the thought crossed my mind that a couple of LECies were playing "stump the band." Monkeyvomit just vanished. Myles began by saying he might not have done the Forum if he'd known more, then proceeded to discount everything which was said. You'd think these ~enlightened~ folks would have better things to do with their time. I don't see how being ~inauthentic~ makes the world a better place.

estie

I do not intend to discount any posts or opinions.

I naturally trust those that have real evidence or experience in the topic, but I am reading everything.

no one should take it personally if I do not respond to your specific post. I may just not have anything to add to what you said. I promise to actively challenge and evaluate whatever I read.

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midonov123
Landmark say they don't use thought reform technology on people, nor do they use brainwashing technology for whatever that means. However, using their own vocabulary, they use a "technology" that leads to a "transformation" of peoples "mind". So I call it a "mind transformation technology" and that is definitely the mark of a cult.

Okay. You are starting to get somewhere with this because you are identifing more what specifically about Landmark that offends to you.

You think people are getting some form of brainwashing at the Forum.

Well, I did feel like I had to think in a totally different way in order to understand the distinctions. The Forum leader had us all thinking in a way that we had not thought before. It took a long time too. People had a very hard time grabbing on to these concepts.

Okay. So, I think I can see your point. I'm not convinced that it was bad or negative for me right now, but I definately see how we were encouraged to think in a new way.

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Myles
Well, I did feel like I had to think in a totally different way in order to understand the distinctions. The Forum leader had us all thinking in a way that we had not thought before. It took a long time too. People had a very hard time grabbing on to these concepts.

Okay. So, I think I can see your point. I'm not convinced that it was bad or negative for me right now, but I definately see how we were encouraged to think in a new way.

Just because they sound new or novel does not automatically make a "distinction" particularly brilliant. Or useful, or liberating. It is not so difficult to make rather profound sounding generalizations that are grounded on incoherent philosophies. I knew the guy who originated the distinction of "distinction" and I saw his mind in action and I was not particularly impressed... deep down he was a lightweight posing as a hevyweight and he knew it and he knew that I knew that he knew it... so he went out of his way to be nice to me and I actually felt for the guy... but as a thinker he just didn't have the chops, he was writing philosophic B movies, and in one particular he went completely wrong.... the point is that [b:d9a376be41] "being encouraged to think in a new way" isn't enough, you have to approach it like a mathematical proof, not an act of faith [/b:d9a376be41] ... and the Erhardians are very big on leaps of faith, sometimes really dumb leaps of faith... they used to ramble on about Kirkegaard.... they we always picking these wack philosophers like Heidegger and Kirkegaard... how come you NEVER hear them talking about A.N.Whithehead ? Or Geroge Santayana ?

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nutrino

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Myles
Well, I did feel like I had to think in a totally different way in order to understand the distinctions. The Forum leader had us all thinking in a way that we had not thought before. It took a long time too. People had a very hard time grabbing on to these concepts.

Okay. So, I think I can see your point. I'm not convinced that it was bad or negative for me right now, but I definately see how we were encouraged to think in a new way.

Just because they sound new or novel does not automatically make a "distinction" particularly brilliant. Or useful, or liberating. It is not so difficult to make rather profound sounding generalizations that are grounded on incoherent philosophies. I knew the guy who originated the distinction of "distinction" ...........

Who was that?