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Excalibur
I think all this infighting must be very exciting and satisfying for Myles; after all, it's his thread. I'm sure he's allerting all his cult buddies to come on over and see what's going on here.

I have a suggestion. Instead of bashing each other let's all bash the real enemy: Landmark "Education". Here, I'll give it a kickstart; Landmark, otherwise known as Scam-mark, Scum-mark and Landshark. lol

The last time Myles posted was almost 2 months ago. This is typical behavior of apologists as has been discussed before in this message board.

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Excalibur
I think all this infighting must be very exciting and satisfying for Myles; after all, it's his thread. I'm sure he's allerting all his cult buddies to come on over and see what's going on here.

I have a suggestion. Instead of bashing each other let's all bash the real enemy: Landmark "Education". Here, I'll give it a kickstart; Landmark, otherwise known as Scam-mark, Scum-mark and Landshark. lol

Also, according to this post, Myles is attending the Advanced Course this month:
[board.culteducation.com]
Most people I know who bailed early on with Landmark either bailed on the first exposure (before taking any courses) or bailed after the Advanced Course when they saw that mostly they paid 100s of bucks to listen to the Leader sell the next course for hours on end.
Maybe Myles will emerge...

Whacking off in the bushes, no doubt... we're almost up to 6000 views of this thread... and the Enlightenment Gestapo hasn't shut it down yet... that's saying something... attention is being paid...

apropos of nothing.... where are these guys, anyway ? 6000 views means the world out there is looking in on the conversation.... they know that there is a conversation.... the creeps at headquarters know there is a conversation... and, like, soooo... if the trainer body produces such profound thinkers an all, like they say they do.... with their toolbox of groovalicious distinctions and mighty intent and all that other good stuff that makes them a superior class of human beings ready to take on all comers.... rhetorical chain saw warmed up to lop off the protruding racket, trusty lead shot filled black leather browbeaters at their sides...
the veritable Church Militant of Authenticity... and they can't get their shit together for a coherent debate ? How pathetic is that ?

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nutrino
apropos of nothing.... where are these guys, anyway ? 6000 views means the world out there is looking in on the conversation.... they know that there is a conversation.... the creeps at headquarters know there is a conversation... and, like, soooo... if the trainer body produces such profound thinkers an all, like they say they do.... with their toolbox of groovalicious distinctions and mighty intent and all that other good stuff that makes them a superior class of human beings ready to take on all comers.... rhetorical chain saw warmed up to lop off the protruding racket, trusty lead shot filled black leather browbeaters at their sides...
the veritable Church Militant of Authenticity... and they can't get their shit together for a coherent debate ? How pathetic is that ?

[speaking as Tyler Durden]: "The number 1 rule of LGATs, is, we do not discuss/debate/analyze the LGAT". :) (ever seen Fightclub?).
Or the leader. Or their methods. You revel in the effects without questioning the cause. Showing curiousity about their methods (as I did), is the anathema to LGATs. You're eating into their bread & butter by doing that. You are creating competition. Who in their right mind enjoys competition? Simple economics... Just follow the dogma, feel good, and "let go (of your wallet)".

Alrite, alrite... I know I shouldn't blast them for making money, but I just can't resist. Maybe I envy them? nutrino, feel like starting an LGAT? I swear, man, I know enough drugstore psychology, to start one... It could be good, ya know?

Why do I find this topic/forum inexhaustible?

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pragmatist
Alrite, alrite... I know I shouldn't blast them for making money, but I just can't resist. Maybe I envy them? nutrino, feel like starting an LGAT? I swear, man, I know enough drugstore psychology, to start one... It could be good, ya know?
Why do I find this topic/forum inexhaustible?

There are deep satisfactions of doing a job well and truly thought through. You can look in the mirror. You have the respect of people whose respect counts for something. You can sit in peace with the knowledge that you didn't cut corners, you didn't sell incomplete models or false hope, that you exchanged genuine value for genuine value... there's much to be said for the dignity and self respect that comes from doing the real thing, the fine thing.

When I see the painful spectacle of "true believers" dancing around truth, trying to spin incompletions or failures into triumphs, avoiding the hard but necessary questions... and the defensive, combative, deflecting and manipulative frame games that too many LGATeers have to play, I am also attuned to their deep discomforts that have been covered over with this LGAT ideological murk... in the case of more than one [i:811326a652] est trainer[/i:811326a652] I recall at some point in the process of having a clarity of insight into their true issue, which was one of overcompensating for a core feeling of inferiority... I surmised that these persons most drawn to this method of existence must have had profound ego injuries at an early age, which I believe is the root of most fanatacism, a sense of incompletion around an early power struggle... or responding to a sense of deprivation or helplessness by becoming "hyper-effective" ... somewhat like the man who develops the Don Juan personality to compensate for sexual doubt or confusion.... but cannot experience the pleasures of true intimacy...

The LGAT universe is the "attractor basin" where the damaged, the incomplete, the locked in to early psychodynamics, the obsessively looped, the freakishly potty trained, can find a level of personal meaning that isn't available in eye-level day to day interaction...

Which is not to say that some cases cannot evolve and make constructive use of their ego injuries, as perhaps many of our greatest stage talents, comics, dramatists, are progressively working through their damage in creative ways... the trainer who can draw on the energizing power of emotional compensation, in a sense use his neuroses instead of being used by them, may have a profound therapeutic impact as his audience may be drawn through his process of individuation and differentiation and emerge as larger beings...

What may be grotesquely sucky about certain LGATs is their collective dynamic at the senior level [i:811326a652] inhibits, or actively discourages, or covertly sabotages [/i:811326a652] these final stage of true breakthrough, keeping their team in a spiritually, emotionally, and intellectually stunted condition, rationalized as being in the service of a higher cause, while most genrally being in the service of the bottom line...

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nutrino
There are deep satisfactions of doing a job well and truly thought through. You can look in the mirror. You have the respect of people whose respect counts for something. You can sit in peace with the knowledge that you didn't cut corners, you didn't sell incomplete models or false hope, that you exchanged genuine value for genuine value... there's much to be said for the dignity and self respect that comes from doing the real thing, the fine thing.

When I see the painful spectacle of "true believers" dancing around truth, trying to spin incompletions or failures into triumphs, avoiding the hard but necessary questions... and the defensive, combative, deflecting and manipulative frame games that too many LGATeers have to play, I am also attuned to their deep discomforts that have been covered over with this LGAT ideological murk... in the case of more than one [i:24dc114e9e] est trainer[/i:24dc114e9e] I recall at some point in the process of having a clarity of insight into their true issue, which was one of overcompensating for a core feeling of inferiority... I surmised that these persons most drawn to this method of existence must have had profound ego injuries at an early age, which I believe is the root of most fanatacism, a sense of incompletion around an early power struggle... or responding to a sense of deprivation or helplessness by becoming "hyper-effective" ... somewhat like the man who develops the Don Juan personality to compensate for sexual doubt or confusion.... but cannot experience the pleasures of true intimacy...

Some statements...

1) we are all "dinged" in some way. Even the ones with the most happy childhods and that lacked nothing as young children or as adults - develop personality traits that are less than helpful in navigating the sea of life.

2) you sound like an extremely ethics minded person. Going back to your previous posts, I remember you saying that some people get their screws totally unhinged after an LGAT - e.g. they get "sucked" in. Others do not and have a very positive takeaway from the experience.

Which brings me to my question to which I haven't figured out the answer yet - aimed at you and at myself - had it not been for the unorthodox psychological methods and procedures employed by the LGAT methodology, how else would you justify paying 400-500 dollars for a 4 day, 12 hr/day seminar?

I understand that it may thoroughly fu*k some people up, but as with anything, science included, one can not guarantee 100% success. There will always be "collateral damage" (bluntly speaking).

Set the ethics aside for a moment - and you surely can not hope for a better way to add value to something that lasts 3 days, tells you nothing new, and differs only in the style and method of execution. LGATs are extremely scripted. What varies, in the case of Landmark, is the confessionals from people. In a sense, I was recently part of a jury pool - a lawyer picking and choosing his jury pool had a similar way of extracting facts from the jury pool much in the same way the LGAT leader does from his audience, by asking broad, generalized questions in an authoritative, strictily on-topic environment. In the jury room you are sworn to tell the truth, so the authority of the state is above you. If you lie, you go to jail or pay a steep fine. In the LGAT, you dont pay a fine, but you will either dismiss it as a stupidity if you are being disingenuous (e.g. lying to other participants, the speaker), or get kicked out if you go ape-s**t.

So, their methods may be questionable or with undesirable sideeffects, but the value, to those who can grasp the concept posteriori, is not. The "paradox" if I may call it that even (or you may choose to call it a 'deception', given your ethics), is that you have to play by their rules in order to see any value, yet, be able to detach from the experience and realize that the effects are temporary. So, you can only extract value under a certain set of conditions. The typical (ethical) method of paying money and expecting a good or a more concrete service (e.g. fix my car, computer, health, etc.) still applies, but in addition to money, a level of participation/conformance is required - which is where, I believe, the rub lies - most people are prepared to part with a few hundred bucks, but don't necessarily expect anything but benign participation in the transaction. That's the only difference. But as far as the letter of the law is concerned, that difference doesn't exist. They hold an 'educational' seminar for 3 days, much like anything else, and you're compensating them for time spent 'educating' you :).

Your claim was also that some never do come to the realization of their methods. Then, how do you suppose we can solve that? Abolish/ban LGATs? Or regulate them by law for the benefit of all by making them disclose their methods? I think if they do the latter, much as I read from some court findings on this forum, they will basically shoot themselves (that is, their business model) in the foot. This is the point at which a majority of opinion can decide, rather than I or you alone. But since they aren't objectively hurting you, how can you make your case? They have man-eating lawyers ready to defend the enterprise at all costs.

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nutrino
The LGAT universe is the "attractor basin" where the damaged, the incomplete, the locked in to early psychodynamics, the obsessively looped, the freakishly potty trained, can find a level of personal meaning that isn't available in eye-level day to day interaction...

Don't you think that's a bit too harsh? What if I like to surf European Swedish porn sites after hours? Do you call me loopy? :) (hypothetically speaking, not that I'd ever surf for porn ;)) I mean, you live and let live, even the LGAT-ers.... they too are people. Dinged or not, dogmatized or not... they are like you or I, in essence (not specifics).

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nutrino
Which is not to say that some cases cannot evolve and make constructive use of their ego injuries, as perhaps many of our greatest stage talents, comics, dramatists, are progressively working through their damage in creative ways... the trainer who can draw on the energizing power of emotional compensation, in a sense use his neuroses instead of being used by them, may have a profound therapeutic impact as his audience may be drawn through his process of individuation and differentiation and emerge as larger beings...

Well, precisely my point. As overwhelmed as I was after attending Landmark (formerly known as EST), and as 'perfect' as I was in my virtues, upbringing, personal life, etc - I still was able to discover personal faults that held me back in my own life (problems w/authority, etc). However it happened - whether due to the structure of the forum, my age+experience, or a combination of both - it doesn't matter. I realized I've been incomplete in one major aspect - so I chose to rectify that afterwards, and it's working out quite well. And here I am, able to discuss this with you in any manner possible.... on the best site of its kind on the net. Had this not been the case, and I never quite "got the point" of the forum, first, I wouldn't be discussing it here on culteducation.com, and secondly, I would have wanted my hard earned money back. Neither of which is the case, because even for a microsecond, I realized something that was invaluable to me - and that was a trait that was truly a huge part of my personality and attitude toward others, especially those in charge of my salary. Does this make me now a "pawn" or "subservient" or "stupid" or "ignorant"? You tell me.

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nutrino
What may be grotesquely sucky about certain LGATs is their collective dynamic at the senior level [i:24dc114e9e] inhibits, or actively discourages, or covertly sabotages [/i:24dc114e9e] these final stage of true breakthrough, keeping their team in a spiritually, emotionally, and intellectually stunted condition, rationalized as being in the service of a higher cause, while most genrally being in the service of the bottom line...

Don't forget - the instructors get paid. It's not like they are doing it for free, just as with any other job that pays you bi-monthly (or however often). The deal with these guys is - and I think you're right on the money with your assumption - some of them have completely addictive personalities. I was reading an article on Erhard - the man behind Est - he was a complete freak when it came to learning the trade from his teachers. He was like the best pupil, and he realized he could do it himself, so he started Est. Nothing wrong with starting a business.

I do not think they get paid tremendous amounts of money though. I had a conversation with one of them about salary - they may start you off with some average salary (e.g. 50k/year). I make in excess of double that right now as a software engineer. But he gets the satisfaction of the soul purgatory experience over a 3 day period after reading his script and doing a bit of mental aikido.... and it's also a huge power-trip, being able to influence people.... I don't get my kicks in such a way. I derive pleasure from building something (software apps) others will make use of, which in and of itself can be _very_ addictive, because you assume that's how everything in the world works - "Build it (good), and they'll come". Well, they don't always come even if you build it :). You gotta "make them" come, without coercing them...gently...slowly...filling their needs..desires, making them feel good... by talking :).

Again, sorry if this discussion seems circular in nature... just wanted to get that off my chest :). You always have the most insightful comments anyhow. I hate one liners that I see quite often from others.

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pragmatist
Again, sorry if this discussion seems circular in nature... just wanted to get that off my chest :). You always have the most insightful comments anyhow. I hate one liners that I see quite often from others.

There's a potentially long circuitous answer lurking in here... to keep it simple for the moment... what did you think of the [b:9b97952e47] instrumentalist/terminalist distinction [/b:9b97952e47] ... was that in any way useful or clarifying ?

My broad bush take on the LGAT industry is that their offerings are a mixture of [b:9b97952e47] instrumentalism [/b:9b97952e47] ( ideas-beliefs-metaphors as tools ) and [b:9b97952e47] terminalism [/b:9b97952e47] ( ideas-beliefs-metaphors as fetish objects to be believed in for their own sake ) ... curiously, language itself can become fetishized, certain words can be libidinized with a fetish energy....

It would appear that your operating paradigm, whether you think much about it or simply function from within it... IS strongly instrumentalist
in nature.... ideas are to be used in a pragmatic way, and if your ideas can be improved in a pragmatic way, like reframing the meaning of "authority figure" into something more positive, then you accept that and reap the benefit... it may be so well developed within you that even the idea of fetishism makes no sense... like saying "crystallized vacuum" or "flat mountains" ... so your brain is a very efficient mechanism for extracting the pragmatic content and nulling out the noise products...

Landmark is 'education' to exactly the same extent & in exactly the same way as McDonald's is a 'restaurant'.

(easy, tasty & convenient but too much makes you & the environment sick)

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pragmatist
Set the ethics aside for a moment - and you surely can not hope for a better way to add value to something that lasts 3 days, tells you nothing new, and differs only in the style and method of execution.

ummmm... I beg to differ.... I did a cross platform comparison... visiting the Erhardians (then in the guiuse of the [i:9c8597b4eb] est [/i:9c8597b4eb] training) and checking in with the neurolinguists/ericksonians (whose quality leave much to be desired at this point in time.... but possibly they'll get their grrove back...)
back and forth I'd travel and keep close mental notes... my conclusion was, on the level of applied mind technolgy, the Erhardians were [i:9c8597b4eb] decidedly inferior [/i:9c8597b4eb] as thinkers, teachers, and "grapplers with the human condition"... they especially did not have one iota of the improvisational chops that the best Neurolinguists had, they were quite dogmatic, rigid, and oh so self infatuated by comparison... the NLP crew was just better, more intertesting, more effective, and absolutley less traumatic as well... well, OK, that was just my apples to oranges, A to B comparison.... that said, once Tony Robbins came on the scene, the quality level of NLP study, the types of people doing it, taking it seriously, simply plummeted.... but I think it is struggling to return to its former efficacy....

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pragmatist
LGATs are extremely scripted. What varies, in the case of Landmark, is the confessionals from people.

Well, not universally ture, the NLP trainers can be extremely not scripted, very fluid and adaptive, and very, very adept at reading room dynamics... so they don't have to be scripted, although a good teaching plan is important... like today well will explore Meta Model and well formedness conditions, but how we do that will be completely responsive to the room's communication patterns... the Erhardians ARE extremely scripted because Erhard Genius demanded of his flunkies that they religiously "recreate" him, and I use the term religious in its literal sense...

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pragmatist
In a sense, I was recently part of a jury pool - a lawyer picking and choosing his jury pool had a similar way of extracting facts from the jury pool much in the same way the LGAT leader does from his audience, by asking broad, generalized questions in an authoritative, strictily on-topic environment. In the jury room you are sworn to tell the truth, so the authority of the state is above you. If you lie, you go to jail or pay a steep fine. In the LGAT, you dont pay a fine, but you will either dismiss it as a stupidity if you are being disingenuous (e.g. lying to other participants, the speaker), or get kicked out if you go ape-s**t.

but you really can't compare they in spite of some morphological similarity, they have profoundly different purposes, you are not there by choice, you are summoned to appear and be tested for qualification, and you are instructed to analyse specific information and render a specific conclusion... jury pools are not LGATs

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pragmatist
So, their methods may be questionable or with undesirable sideeffects, but the value, to those who can grasp the concept posteriori, is not. The "paradox" if I may call it that even (or you may choose to call it a 'deception', given your ethics), is that you have to play by their rules in order to see any value, yet, be able to detach from the experience and realize that the effects are temporary.

yeah, well, "temporary" for you... and you are also making an extremely naive assumption, if I may say so, about how "temporary" the effects of clever group hypnotic inductions can be, with lots of embedded suggestions and language patterns coming at you injecting many subtle, or no so subtle shifts in belief and suggestion.... as some very chilling results from North Korean indoctination camps demonstrated in the late 1950s and early 1960s, within certain populations, some programming struck home and lodged in deeply...

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pragmatist
So, you can only extract value under a certain set of conditions. The typical (ethical) method of paying money and expecting a good or a more concrete service (e.g. fix my car, computer, health, etc.) still applies, but in addition to money, a level of participation/conformance is required - which is where, I believe, the rub lies - most people are prepared to part with a few hundred bucks, but don't necessarily expect anything but benign participation in the transaction.

They well may be getting a damn sight more than they paid for...

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pragmatist
That's the only difference. But as far as the letter of the law is concerned, that difference doesn't exist. They hold an 'educational' seminar for 3 days, much like anything else, and you're compensating them for time spent 'educating' you :).

Very nice of them to frame it as "education" instead of "indoctrination"...

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pragmatist
Your claim was also that some never do come to the realization of their methods. Then, how do you suppose we can solve that? Abolish/ban LGATs? Or regulate them by law for the benefit of all by making them disclose their methods?

Hmmmm.... don't give the Attorneys General and big ideas.... they're preoccupied with meth labs at the moment... when things quiet down, a little something to do perhaps ?

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pragmatist
I think if they do the latter, much as I read from some court findings on this forum, they will basically shoot themselves (that is, their business model) in the foot. This is the point at which a majority of opinion can decide, rather than I or you alone. But since they aren't objectively hurting you, how can you make your case? They have man-eating lawyers ready to defend the enterprise at all costs.

Oh, but they may well be objectively hurting me by changing my culture in ways that objectively hurt me, just like GE dumping PCBs from the transformer factory into the Hudson river was physically distant, and GE protested that they weren't objectively hurting anyone, but there were these leukemia clusters, and eventually it seeps into the water supply, so objectively, yeah, I'd want to pay damn close attention to things being plunked into the environment, a little atmospheric mercury here, a little hexavalent chromium there, it starts to add up, tumor here, tumor there... weird kids with big heads... so i make my case ojn the basis that the Erhardians have a [b:9c8597b4eb] stated goal [/b:9c8597b4eb] of "transforming the world" meaning they have every intention of going viral by any means necessary to quote Malcolm X and if someone is objectively determined to release mind virii into my atmostphere I have an objective interest in putting some of the little critters under a scanning electron microscope and checking closely if they have a family resemblance to the rhabdoviridae or the filoviridae (as in rabies in the first case or Ebola in the second, and maybe a little Lhassa fever tossed in for good measure, or only an innocent little herpes spreading on the private parts...) which, yeah, might objectively seriously fuck me up if we cross some tipping point in the indeterminate future... or maybe not, but as responsible epidimiologists, we like to pay attention....

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nutrino
The LGAT universe is the "attractor basin" where the damaged, the incomplete, the locked in to early psychodynamics, the obsessively looped, the freakishly potty trained, can find a level of personal meaning that isn't available in eye-level day to day interaction...

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pragmatist
Don't you think that's a bit too harsh? What if I like to surf European Swedish porn sites after hours? Do you call me loopy? :) (hypothetically speaking, not that I'd ever surf for porn ;)) I mean, you live and let live, even the LGAT-ers.... they too are people. Dinged or not, dogmatized or not... they are like you or I, in essence (not specifics).

ah, yes, but they have agendae, the have inchoate belief systems, they are guided by voices.... and in some other essence they may be not at all like I

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nutrino
Which is not to say that some cases cannot evolve and make constructive use of their ego injuries, as perhaps many of our greatest stage talents, comics, dramatists, are progressively working through their damage in creative ways... the trainer who can draw on the energizing power of emotional compensation, in a sense use his neuroses instead of being used by them, may have a profound therapeutic impact as his audience may be drawn through his process of individuation and differentiation and emerge as larger beings...

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pragmatist
Well, precisely my point. As overwhelmed as I was after attending Landmark (formerly known as EST), and as 'perfect' as I was in my virtues, upbringing, personal life, etc - I still was able to discover personal faults that held me back in my own life (problems w/authority, etc). However it happened - whether due to the structure of the forum, my age+experience, or a combination of both - it doesn't matter. I realized I've been incomplete in one major aspect - so I chose to rectify that afterwards, and it's working out quite well. And here I am, able to discuss this with you in any manner possible....

bravo for you.... some do get the goodies and don't have too many barnacles clinging to them after the fifth orgasm of the evening... some are not so lucky...

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pragmatist
on the best site of its kind on the net. Had this not been the case, and I never quite "got the point" of the forum, first, I wouldn't be discussing it here on culteducation.com, and secondly, I would have wanted my hard earned money back. Neither of which is the case, because even for a microsecond, I realized something that was invaluable to me - and that was a trait that was truly a huge part of my personality and attitude toward others, especially those in charge of my salary. Does this make me now a "pawn" or "subservient" or "stupid" or "ignorant"? You tell me.

Hmmmm..... this is not some kind of Freudian Slip or shadow self image of yours is it.... ? I mean, being so agressively "not the pawn", "not the subservient".... I cannot make you those things, those words you dislike, but you can by being preoccupied with them, by having them be an incessant part of the backgound conversation one has with oneself...

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nutrino
What may be grotesquely sucky about certain LGATs is their collective dynamic at the senior level [i:9c8597b4eb] inhibits, or actively discourages, or covertly sabotages [/i:9c8597b4eb] these final stage of true breakthrough, keeping their team in a spiritually, emotionally, and intellectually stunted condition, rationalized as being in the service of a higher cause, while most genrally being in the service of the bottom line...

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pragmatist
Don't forget - the instructors get paid. It's not like they are doing it for free, just as with any other job that pays you bi-monthly (or however often). The deal with these guys is - and I think you're right on the money with your assumption - some of them have completely addictive personalities. I was reading an article on Erhard - the man behind Est - he was a complete freak when it came to learning the trade from his teachers. He was like the best pupil, and he realized he could do it himself, so he started Est. Nothing wrong with starting a business.

Like my goombah aquaintances in Brooklyn would say... "eeeeeh... nuttin' wrong with startin' a business... youze gotta problem wit that" ? No, Marco... no problem....

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pragmatist
I do not think they get paid tremendous amounts of money though. I had a conversation with one of them about salary - they may start you off with some average salary (e.g. 50k/year). I make in excess of double that right now as a software engineer. But he gets the satisfaction of the soul purgatory experience over a 3 day period after reading his script and doing a bit of mental aikido.... and it's also a huge power-trip, being able to influence people....

yeah... just mildly.... these guys have an erotic obsession with power and influence... to bad they don't have the imagination to [b:9c8597b4eb] "decreate" [/b:9c8597b4eb]
Mister Weener Man and do something genuinely innovative and actually inspiring instead of grinding out the same old crap for all time..... youy hafta be a little, you know.... thick as two planks to get your rocks off in that fashion...

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pragmatist
I don't get my kicks in such a way. I derive pleasure from building something (software apps) others will make use of, which in and of itself can be _very_ addictive, because you assume that's how everything in the world works - "Build it (good), and they'll come". Well, they don't always come even if you build it :). You gotta "make them" come, without coercing them...gently...slowly...filling their needs..desires, making them feel good... by talking :).

to each their own... you're happy with your deal, so go for it...

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pragmatist
Again, sorry if this discussion seems circular in nature... just wanted to get that off my chest :). You always have the most insightful comments anyhow. I hate one liners that I see quite often from others.

here, have a Kleenex, blow lightly or you get marks in the corner of your eyes... nope, just kidding.... but you're right, ideas have to be kept in motion, constantly challenged and revisited, or they grow stale and dumb... so we will wrestle with the angel from day to day...