Here's a better reference:


[www.cnn.com]

December 1, 2003

LONDON, England (Reuters) -- A comment last year by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on the hunt for Iraq's weapons of mass destruction was awarded the "Foot in Mouth" prize Monday by Britain's Plain English Campaign.

Rumsfeld, renowned for his uncompromising tough talking, received the prize for the most baffling comment by a public figure.

"Reports that say something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know," Rumsfeld told a news briefing.

"We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know."

One could expand at length here.... if Wiliam Jefferson Clinton could bring himself to invite Anthony Robbins to the White House as a success coach... and on the right, if the Neo-Cons have had a long standing, if carefully brushed over relationship with Sun Myun Moon's Unification Church, and Erhardism had deeply penetrated into the attitudes and thought processes of those who would eventually rise to positions of authority... [b:a47167900e] it is no mean stretch of the imagination to suspect that there has been a significant impact of LGAT culture on political, corporate, and miltary culture and military doctrine... [/b:a47167900e] and the implications of that are breathtaking.... that we may, very well may be facing a geopolitical catastrophe of Roman proportions in a perfect storm scenario, or maybe just some rocky years and a lot of denial, finger pointing, and sophisticated lying if things don't lurch over the event horizon... now, though, we must begin to take up this matter as a serious discussion, what are the true consequences of Werner Erhard's impact on the public mind, how did internalizing the "gestalt" of Erhardism shape the evolution of political style, policy, and doctrine ? Was the form of the Iraq invasion, the tapestry of logic behind this invasion, to some degree a projection of Erhard's beliefs about how the world "really worked". [b:a47167900e] And what now, if we have acted on those beliefs, and they prove, at the level of the highest imaginable stakes, to be dangerously misguided, foolishly unrealistic ? What then ? [/b:a47167900e]

The following was written by a disgruntled Scientolgist in 1983. Does Mary Shelley's classic novel [b:db6554cc7f] Frankenstein [/b:db6554cc7f] make another level of sense now ? Read on, you lucky dogs...hoo boy..."

"The aesthetic feeling of Tone 40 "unreasonableness" is the glue to the beingness that has taken over the management and it is this beingness that management is now attempting to create in others.[b:db6554cc7f] As there is such a great aestheticness to the feeling of total Tone 40 unreasonableness [/b:db6554cc7f], it becomes almost impossible to see the effect of this beingness once one is viewing life through it. [b:db6554cc7f]This is the mechanism through which heinous acts may be committed by good beings.[/b:db6554cc7f] Because the being is attached to the aesthetic he goes along with the rest of what went with that aesthetic and is actually blind to the actual consequences of his actions. The end can also justify the means when one has a great enough aesthetic attached. Thus such a thing can actually occur where persons in rousing agreement with the "aesthetic" of KEEPING SCIENTOLOGY WORKING at all costs, then take part in purifying Scientology. [b:db6554cc7f] They buy the idea that time is scarce, there is great danger, there isn't time for routine justice actions. They buy the idea that they can afford to make mistakes and fix them later. [/b:db6554cc7f] The group aesthetic of "purifying" becomes moblike and the momentum of the group carries it forward. Only when there is no one left to remove, when too many posts become-unmanned or improperly manned, when stats crash, does the "aesthetic" lift enough to start to see that some really pretty heavy disaster has taken place. "

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nutrino
Very good... Pragmatist... well expressed and thorough, no doubt written with the same dedication that has made you successful in your software business...

Mucho gracias, I try ;).

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nutrino
First, I think you may underestimate how much resilience, strength, and survival knowledge you have brought to the equation... these too are your beliefs, perhaps stored in hidden files you never have to think consciously about but are there, constantly protecting you and filtering out manipulative suggestion. My former significant other comes from an ex-communist country where the norm is to have bullshit firewalls to the highest industrial standard well established around your perimeter of self identity... not everyone is so fortunate... there are also those who are merely rigid, or lost and hoping for a solution, some with chemical imbalances, easily suggestible who allow everything in, mind viruses and all, some just in need of an identity to atttach themselves to, so what is having your tree shaken so the ripe fruit might fall off if it and give you fresh nourishment, for them might be having their machine so hard hit that internal bolts start falling off and wiring shorts out...

Ah - you summed up in a paragraph, why the people of my potato and cabbage former country of mine are still _agonizing_ in despair with a "you owe me" type of attitude seen in certain races in the United States. The government of my country royally screwed the people's savings back prior to 1992 - the banks went bankrupt, and declared withdrawals of foreign currency illegal in the country. Any money you had - you kissed it good bye (and in some cases, we're talking 100's of thousands of dollars here). How do you restore the people's trust then? You don't. At least, not right away. Once burnes, twice shy - goes the old adage. So the bullshit filters are running galore to this very day back home. There were attempts at restoring trust - they too turned ou to be scams - driven gy greed. By guess who - those in charge. The well polished intelectual gentlemen, with a knack for capturing the imagination of people via speech. And then not delivering on their even most vaguest of promises.

Bullshit filters? You better believe they will have them. They have them so much now, we want to become part of the EU, and we still think there's a hidden agenda there too - that someone will screw us badly. So we're still complacent and lazy and bullshit-alert. We basically tuck everything or nearly everything in the bullshit category even though we're at 40% unemployment :). EU? Yeah. In 2060 maybe, when I'm nearly dead or dead, maybe my great-grandchildren will see it.

So, do I think we need a "old beliefs" purge, an enema, if you will? Hell _yes_! The quicker someone can run an LGAT on the mentally stable leaders of the country - the better off we will be. We need to drop the communist doctrine - and embrace the capitalistic (or quasi-socialistic one like Canada ;) one. Why? Cause other than potatoes, peppers and cabbage - we can't produce much more from the landmass we have (which is quite small).

The chemically imbalanced, mentally challenged, uneducated ones need not partake in this purging process. Perhaps they're best off following the leader. I'm short on knowledge of how to involve everyone in this process in order for the country to get ahead. So..offer up some suggestions, of how to get past their, sometimes misplaced, bullshit filters that hold us back.

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nutrino
So, second... this always has the greatest attraction for those who love power, especially immediate power of other people... sometimes the most fantastically arrogant have learned to package their arrogance in the justification of the great cause. You would love to read The True Believer by Eric Hofer where he speaks directly to this.

I'll order it as soon as I get a chance.

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nutrino
<parts snipped>

When, [b:e34538203f] ever, even once, in any circumstance have you, or do you know of anyone who has sat down with members of the trainer body and reviewed their materials, their thought processes, had any form of eye level give and take, without the topdog-undergdog dynamic, just an eye level, adult feedback session, going over the process for the strengths and weaknesses, the things that are assuredly true and valuable, the things that are jsut so much self indulgent hot air, or only maybe poorly thought through, not properly seen....??? [/b:e34538203f]

You know - I really thought long and hard about what you said there. First, let me just acknowledge your wit and the ability to distinguish the levels and intensity of belief in people. This empowers you in ways that perhaps 95% of people on this planet do not have. I suppose it is now a matter of ethics for you whether you put this to some type of use :). Whatever floats your boat, if you catch my drift here... You also seem to be more influenced by ideas, rather than facts. I am interested - how did you come into these realizations? Fomer LGAT attendee, other experience that triggered these realizations (traumatic or not, I don't care, as long as you don't mind sharing). Personally, being an engineer, I like to map things out - and the LGAT experiences forced me to look at myself in ways I hadn't done prior... You've somehow come into this - but what's your angle/story?

Now, to address your paragraph about the non-hierarchical, fair, communal type of discussion of the trainer's material (whoever the 'trainer' may be) - personally, I do not think such discussion has beneficial effects in at least two contexts I can think off the top of my head - the military, above all, and secondary, the corporation. Why? Well, if I have to tell you why, it would take a lot more than a reply - but mostly, if everyone was given a chance to fully comprehend a (let's assume largely tested/tried and true) doctrine that has worked for some entities - both of these entities would be up $hit's creek. Questioning military command is guaranteed to give you a court-martial - and questioning your boss (my sin) - earns you ostracism, antagonism, and most likely promotions, salary increases, and worst, your job.

My rule, as of late, with my employer has become one of mutual respect. As long as they respect my boundaries - by this I mean, they do not consider me a "yes-man" (which once cost me my job too at a large publically traded company) and do not expect that I can boil oceans in short amounts of time ("WE GOTTA BRING THIS TO MARKET QUICK QUICK QUICK, YESTERDAY!!!") - I will follow their "policy" (a.k.a. corporate doctrine), and give my best to deliver in order to get more of what I really don't need - money, but more importantly, to get time off with my family, friends and to do stuff I _want_. I'm pretty damn close to paying my house off, at a fairly young age - so really, after that, even the last debt shackle will be off my back, and the very last one, which is to provide me with a sustainable income without having to actually work, is going to come in after that, within the next 5-10 years, I'm projecting. Enough about me... going back to doctrines...

I will follow every doctrine of everyone that superimposes it on me by virtue of "prior knowledge", prior success, prior experience, prior divine intervention, prior <anything out of my realm> - as long as it suits my goals and ends.

This may or may not sound selfish :). But it seems to be the only way to survive out here in the good ol' USA.

So - do you always get opportunity to figure out where all facts stem from, the ideas behind them, etc.? No. You take shortcuts. You follow other people's doctrines and beliefs. Just make them feel good about it. Then they will like you and promote you. And then you get to do what you want. That's how you "beat" the "system". Not by trying to tell a Jihadist that there aren't 72 virgins waiting for him on the "other" side when he blows up innocent civilians. He'll then take you with him, because he thinks you are the "infidel".

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nutrino
Leaving us with the fourth point... lacking tight feedback loops, that are part and parcel of any good control system, and also lacking any real screening that keeps the psychologically vulnerable out, lacking any solid publication of their sources, their beliefs, how they have evolved and explanations of what has driven their evolution, who they are, who they answer to, all these things they manage to keep locked up and out of sight because of its "proprietary nature" ... makes this sometimes like those Viagra knock offs from undocumented third world factories, you don't know what's in it but it gives you a magnificent erection and sometimes a terrible headache too... the fake Viagra might have highly potent chemicals that are also known to be dangerous, or cannot be combined with other medicines, or foul adulterants, or badly trained chemists who answer to nobody may have blown the manufacturing, but as long as the blue pill hase the right shape and causes intense vasodilation, it makes no difference to some people...

And I guess we'll just have to live with the fact that most people, probably the vast majority, never get in tune with what you just said. I"m in violent agreement with you. Which begs the question - what exactly means to believe? Or what exactly does it mean to be "sucked into" something? If it feels "Right" (for whatever your X Y Z reason is), and you are maybe even willing to die for it - then who am I to question your belief system? Am I "Better" than you for knowing this extremely subtle distinction about what makes a belief or knowing how to tell when one gets "Sucked" into anything? Are we really better off knowing these distinctions? I now tend to overanalyze every damn thing in sight - perhaps a consequence of knowing what you said above... or the LGAT.. or something else... the self-realization of my own god damn vulnerabilities, addictions, past sins, what have you...

Sad that we're as imperfect as this, isn't it? :)

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nutrino
The following was written by a disgruntled Scientolgist...

"The aesthetic feeling of Tone 40 "unreasonableness" is the glue to the beingness that has taken over the management and it is this beingness that management is now attempting to create in others..."

Ah yes....ElRon's "Tone Scale."

It's a silly construct that replaces genuine emotion and spontaneous response in the followers of the Co$ and, by proxy, those of Werner Erhard, who paid scientologists to transcribe the stupid stuff into Landmarkese. I don't know what they call it over at Landmark but it's a necessary componant of a salesman's ~toolkit~ and one that had to be adopted as both scientology and est/Landmark obliterate the connections between thought and feeling or feeling and thought. The disabled followers have nothing left put to pick up the disgusting practice of pretending an emotional response tailored to the situation they find themselves in. Echoes the "learned" appropriateness by successful sociopaths who have no genuine depth of feelings but know they must mimic them in order to communicate with normal people and to be persuasive.


Ellen

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nutrino
One could expand at length here.... if Wiliam Jefferson Clinton could bring himself to invite Anthony Robbins to the White House as a success coach... and on the right, if the Neo-Cons have had a long standing, if carefully brushed over relationship with Sun Myun Moon's Unification Church...

It's much, much worse than a bumbling idiot like Moon in the Right's back rooms and back pockets. It's the fun-lovers on the lists found in this article from the Daily Kos who add up to something much worse than any cult on the menu, though they certainly display lots of the characteristics and appear to look at the public in the same way various cult leaders look at their flocks - just so many sheep to be shorn.

[www.dailykos.com]


Ellen

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elena
It's the fun-lovers on the lists found in this article from the Daily Kos who add up to something much worse than any cult on the menu, though they certainly display lots of the characteristics and appear to look at the public in the same way various cult leaders look at their flocks - just so many sheep to be shorn.
Ellen

[b:e8d4309838] "everything that rises must converge" [/b:e8d4309838] - Flannery O'Conner

When you get down to the bare knuckle, unsentimental business of power it becomes a very pragmatic exercise... the name of the game is [b:e8d4309838] "what works" [/b:e8d4309838] ... and these guys have figured out what works when it comes to grabbing and holding power... sometimes elitist groups make spectacular gambles and fail, Hitler and his invasion of the Soviet Union, ignoring Napoleon's experience there... and perhaps they think it would be a good idea to for the United States to invade Iran... we'll show these barbarians a good thrashing, get them off their fundamentalist racket, off their colective memory racket... maybe Donald and Werner can team up for a special presentation....

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elena

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nutrino
One could expand at length here.... if Wiliam Jefferson Clinton could bring himself to invite Anthony Robbins to the White House as a success coach... and on the right, if the Neo-Cons have had a long standing, if carefully brushed over relationship with Sun Myun Moon's Unification Church...

It's much, much worse than a bumbling idiot like Moon in the Right's back rooms and back pockets. It's the fun-lovers on the lists found in this article from the Daily Kos who add up to something much worse than any cult on the menu, though they certainly display lots of the characteristics and appear to look at the public in the same way various cult leaders look at their flocks - just so many sheep to be shorn.

[www.dailykos.com]


Ellen

It should be noted that Markos Moulitsas Zuniga (Dkos) is a far-left moonbat.

To Nutrino:

Please be careful with the 'bushitler' stuff while you make your 'cults are bad' points.

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MarkusWelch
Please be careful with the 'bushitler' stuff while you make your 'cults are bad' points.

[b:6dbad5af41] I am in no way equating Bush with Hitler. Nothing here was intended to equate Bush with Hitler. [/b:6dbad5af41] My point was that closed off, self referential, power hungry groups and organizations can make some awfully bad decisions when they loose vital infotrmation and persepective inputs from outside (whatever it is they define as) their comfort zone....

If there is any equivalance here, it is that, as a piece of military strategy, the invasion of the Soviet Union was doomed by the refusal of Hitler to learn from history... as he appeared to be guided by an "infallible instinct" and led by what appeared to be a kind of psychotic charisma...

The decision to invade Iraq appears to have been a case of civilian ideologues... who nobody has said were Nazis... particularly Donald Rumsfeld.... overroad the collective decision process of military professionals because he was a "true believer" in a new doctrine of the swift, agile, light war that replaced the Powell Doctrine with the idea that extreme precision air wars and special forces type infiltrations would supercede the concept of overwhelming force advocated by Powell.
You WOULD have thought that Rumsfeld would have learned a thing or two about assymetric war from the Vietnam era and maybe a thing or three about the need for strong [b:6dbad5af41] HUMINT [/b:6dbad5af41] ... good local intelligence so you could look into the other side's playbook....

But, noooooooooo.

And now, good citizens... we are about to attempt an invasion of a mountainous, rugged land (Irag is a very flat river plain for the most part) many times larger than Iraq.... when we are already overextended ?

You have to wonder.... how DO they think these things up ?

Fair enough, Pragmatist... I've taken a few days here to think seriously about what you've said... because if you're willing to engage the subject with some commitment, you deserve effort on my part to look into your points and see how I, you might say, put in some "added value philosophy" that might be of use... I have taken the liberty of trimming down your quotes simply so we can get to business without acres of text to wade through, and i hope I've kept the essence of what you're saying intact:

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pragmatist
Bullshit filters? You better believe they will have them. They have them so much now, we want to become part of the EU, and we still think there's a hidden agenda there too - that someone will screw us badly. So we're still complacent and lazy and bullshit-alert. We basically tuck everything or nearly everything in the bullshit category even though we're at 40% unemployment :). EU? Yeah. In 2060 maybe, when I'm nearly dead or dead, maybe my great-grandchildren will see it.

So, do I think we need a "old beliefs" purge, an enema, if you will? Hell _yes_! The quicker someone can run an LGAT on the mentally stable leaders of the country - the better off we will be. We need to drop the communist doctrine - and embrace the capitalistic (or quasi-socialistic one like Canada ;) one. Why? Cause other than potatoes, peppers and cabbage - we can't produce much more from the landmass we have (which is quite small).

From all I have observed, the LGAT concept is, if we are borrowing an analogy from physics, one of "narrow peek resonance" ... when it does work it depends on certain cutlural and individual [b:ba32805db0] preconditions [/b:ba32805db0]... and lacking those preconditions it appears to be a non-functioning method... you won't find great bastions of LGAT activity in Uganda or Rwanda or Chad or Somalia... or far that matter Albania or Chechnya or Kygyzstan or Mongolia or Greenland... they don't seem to take hold where either traditional cultures are intact or there is such low GDP that everyone is thinking in terms of survival... concepts like "transformation" are about as useful as a collection of Williams-Sonoma gourmet cooking gadgets when they are dragging roots out of the ground with their bare hands... the [b:ba32805db0] preconditions [/b:ba32805db0] for LGATs thriving appear to be 1., sufficient discretionary income.. which implies at minimum some kind of stable middle class or bourgeoisie and 2. a degree of uprooting, urban alientation, identity instability that is a result of social mobility and economic opportunity... the LGAT dynamic implicitly offers a resolution to these two dynamical problems of social change.. A... it will better position you for success, enrichment, and various personal gain through exposure to a hidden knowledge, belief system, reality orientation which will give you a competitive edge (often with language that refers to "blasting through limitations" or "unstoppable charisma" or "breaking thru" .. all of which has this filmic special effect imagery associated with it) and, the soft touchy feely side, B. will create a new sense of community, family, continuity, belonging complete with a jazzy new vocabulary to play with and a whole buch of fun playmates.. while the endorphins last...

None of which is to say that the LGAT experience won't be of value... in some cases it absolutely can, assuming that the [b:ba32805db0] character bedrock [/b:ba32805db0] is already in place under one's feet, yes, such an environment can act as the trellis that the productive tree can find its best shape on, or the well made cast that allows the bone to set, or the concrete form so the building can be raised.... such people for whom these analogies and metaphors are best served are sharp thinking, clear headed, strong spine people who know what they want and have a strong hunger for new knowledge without becoming addicted to the experience... because we also have the case of people who begin to like using the wheelchair then become another statistic of "wheelchair prisoners" who lose their muscle strength and cannot regain it... so good doctors resist the wheelchair if they can, like they resist giving opiate medicines, which feel wonderful, erotic, liberating to the nervous system, not unlike many political promises, because they understand too well from human observation that surrendering the will is much easier than reclaiming the will...

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nutrino
<parts snipped>
When, [b:ba32805db0] ever, even once, in any circumstance have you, or do you know of anyone who has sat down with members of the trainer body and reviewed their materials, their thought processes, had any form of eye level give and take, without the topdog-undergdog dynamic, just an eye level, adult feedback session, going over the process for the strengths and weaknesses, the things that are assuredly true and valuable, the things that are jsut so much self indulgent hot air, or only maybe poorly thought through, not properly seen....??? [/b:ba32805db0]

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pragmatist
You know - I really thought long and hard about what you said there. First, let me just acknowledge your wit and the ability to distinguish the levels and intensity of belief in people. This empowers you in ways that perhaps 95% of people on this planet do not have. I suppose it is now a matter of ethics for you whether you put this to some type of use :). Whatever floats your boat, if you catch my drift here... You also seem to be more influenced by ideas, rather than facts. I am interested - how did you come into these realizations? Fomer LGAT attendee, other experience that triggered these realizations (traumatic or not, I don't care, as long as you don't mind sharing). Personally, being an engineer, I like to map things out - and the LGAT experiences forced me to look at myself in ways I hadn't done prior... You've somehow come into this - but what's your angle/story?

OK.. a legitimate effort of thinking here, so let's drop it in the ultrasonic cleaner and see what we can take off the surface, maybe some high quality metal under all that paint... let's take this presupposition, becuae it is interesting and we can learn something.. "You also seem to be more influenced by ideas, rather than facts." ... This presupposes that there are two categories, or at least two, "ideas" on one hand, and "facts" on the other... however... all "facts", are, in fact, ideas.. they are a subclass of ideas that we, in our brains, have attached a linguistic tag to, and that tag says "facts" ... but the "factness" is something intrinsic to our though processes... what is a "fact" to you might be a theory to another reasonable person operating from a different construct, and might be wholly unknown to a third person, who might also be highly reasonable, fully sane, and well integrated into his or her culture... for example, what we all "know" today in intelligent first world circles about electomagnetism was at one time the most abstract specualtion that was given mathematical form by Clerk Maxwell, and before him it was something akin to a shamanistic curiosity in a London basement by an obscure genius named Micheal Faraday, who had gotten wind of some kite experimets of Benjamin Franklin, the fellow on our hundred dollar bill... so at what point did, say, radio waves or x-rays go from an idea occuring in a few smart heads to the hard facts of day to day life ? Slowly, imperceptibly, drop by drop....

"I suppose it is now a matter of ethics for you whether you put this to some type of use :). "

Ummm, yes, absolutely, as a matter of fact... but I am taking my time, with a desire to be exceedingly careful, double checking every errr.. source, looking behind the furniture... and would far prefer a little rock solid progess based on rigorous thought than being a large hydrogen filled balloon of empty Charisma that goes up in flames... which I must also say is turning out to be a surreal experience... because now people are coming up to me privately, quietly, saying, go man, don't you dare stop, say what nobody will say, just don't quote me, and I ask myself every morning, am I up to this, do I have enough life energy to withstand all this stupid shit, can I keep my head screwed on straight and deliver the goods when the heat is turned up ? I sure hope so...

"I am interested - how did you come into these realizations? "

For one, coming from a really unusual family background of very intense people, some of whom really did change the world as we know it in significant ways, and second, from a long experience hands and head on, with all sorts of LGAT, NLP, humanistic, cultistic, and anthropological adventures... and a great load of reading and reflection, has brough me to this Bob Dylanesque point in life of "those who are not busy being born are busy dying" contemplation....

"You've somehow come into this - but what's your angle/story?"

In a nut, we can do one jolly fuckload better than we are... but we have been seduced into the comforts of mediocrity, of uncritical thinking, and worse, into "cheap grace", low rent philosophies that ask little personal struggle on the cognitive level, and as a society we are slowly entering into toxosis...a and OTOH, their is something beautiful about real excellence, you know in your get when you are in the presence of the real thing... but I fear we are in the process of replacing real things with unreal things...

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pragmatist
Now, to address your paragraph about the non-hierarchical, fair, communal type of discussion of the trainer's material (whoever the 'trainer' may be) - personally, I do not think such discussion has beneficial effects in at least two contexts I can think off the top of my head - the military, above all, and secondary, the corporation. Why? Well, if I have to tell you why, it would take a lot more than a reply - but mostly, if everyone was given a chance to fully comprehend a (let's assume largely tested/tried and true) doctrine that has worked for some entities - both of these entities would be up $hit's creek. Questioning military command is guaranteed to give you a court-martial - and questioning your boss (my sin) - earns you ostracism, antagonism, and most likely promotions, salary increases, and worst, your job.

You know, if you know how to use the process, you can have a surprising input.. I have with several levels of some major US corporations, some law enforcement... you could always tell when you were talking to a good company because they had a mechanism to bringing in ideas and evaluating them... the shit companies did everything in their power not to hear you... as for the military analogy, often the toxosis in that process is that the military itself has its own mechanisms for inquiry and improvement, but often finds its professionalism compromised for political expedients... and once there is an institutional perception that the political dynamic overrides the professional quality dynamic, the best officers leave... there is Gresham's Law, you must have heard this one, which was to express the effect of counterfeiting (gold coinage in this case) wwhere "the bad drives out the good" .... as soon as counterfeit coins appeared, everyone hoarded the known gold out of fear of losing real metal, and soon all the coins in circulation were adulterated... same with people in compromised situations... the best quality people bail out the quickest, the mediocrities hang around as long as there is a steady paycheck, and the schemers at the bottom start getting ideas....

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pragmatist
My rule, as of late, with my employer has become one of mutual respect. As long as they respect my boundaries - by this I mean, they do not consider me a "yes-man" (which once cost me my job too at a large publically traded company) and do not expect that I can boil oceans in short amounts of time ("WE GOTTA BRING THIS TO MARKET QUICK QUICK QUICK, YESTERDAY!!!") - I will follow their "policy" (a.k.a. corporate doctrine), and give my best to deliver in order to get more of what I really don't need - money, but more importantly, to get time off with my family, friends and to do stuff I _want_. I'm pretty damn close to paying my house off, at a fairly young age - so really, after that, even the last debt shackle will be off my back, and the very last one, which is to provide me with a sustainable income without having to actually work, is going to come in after that, within the next 5-10 years, I'm projecting. Enough about me... going back to doctrines...

I will follow every doctrine of everyone that superimposes it on me by virtue of "prior knowledge", prior success, prior experience, prior divine intervention, prior <anything out of my realm> - as long as it suits my goals and ends.

This may or may not sound selfish :). But it seems to be the only way to survive out here in the good ol' USA.

That may be generally true... however I have found this rule has many dependent clauses... things are never so perfectly cut and dried... the man or woman who has the unusually deep perception, who can ask the most penetrating question at exactly the right moment, who can envision the future as an array of scenarios, who can simultaneously think inside and outside of the box, who has highly refined communication skills, who deeply thinks and is always alive to the moment.. that person adds value, sets his or her terms, for a mind like that, it will always be a sellers market...

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pragmatist
So - do you always get opportunity to figure out where all facts stem from, the ideas behind them, etc.? No. You take shortcuts. You follow other people's doctrines and beliefs. Just make them feel good about it. Then they will like you and promote you. And then you get to do what you want. That's how you "beat" the "system". Not by trying to tell a Jihadist that there aren't 72 virgins waiting for him on the "other" side when he blows up innocent civilians. He'll then take you with him, because he thinks you are the "infidel".

Sometimes yes, sometimes absolutely not, sometimes a little of this and a little of that... you have to keep your nose up, picking up littlle hints in the wind, reading a little deeper, "walking the cat backwards" as they love to say over at the CIA...

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nutrino
Leaving us with the fourth point... lacking tight feedback loops, that are part and parcel of any good control system, and also lacking any real screening that keeps the psychologically vulnerable out, lacking any solid publication of their sources, their beliefs, how they have evolved and explanations of what has driven their evolution, who they are, who they answer to, all these things they manage to keep locked up and out of sight because of its "proprietary nature" ... makes this sometimes like those Viagra knock offs from undocumented third world factories, you don't know what's in it but it gives you a magnificent erection and sometimes a terrible headache too... the fake Viagra might have highly potent chemicals that are also known to be dangerous, or cannot be combined with other medicines, or foul adulterants, or badly trained chemists who answer to nobody may have blown the manufacturing, but as long as the blue pill hase the right shape and causes intense vasodilation, it makes no difference to some people...

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pragmatist
And I guess we'll just have to live with the fact that most people, probably the vast majority, never get in tune with what you just said. I"m in violent agreement with you. Which begs the question - what exactly means to believe? Or what exactly does it mean to be "sucked into" something? If it feels "Right" (for whatever your X Y Z reason is), and you are maybe even willing to die for it - then who am I to question your belief system? Am I "Better" than you for knowing this extremely subtle distinction about what makes a belief or knowing how to tell when one gets "Sucked" into anything? Are we really better off knowing these distinctions? I now tend to overanalyze every damn thing in sight - perhaps a consequence of knowing what you said above... or the LGAT.. or something else... the self-realization of my own god damn vulnerabilities, addictions, past sins, what have you...

Just as often it is a function of the quality of your "technology" ... when most people were not literate, literacy was a high value technology or skill, so I'm strongly thinking now that there is a new kind of literacy required, a survival technology, or not live "perpetually at effect of crafty shit designed to keep you on a short leash" technology , a cognitive Wing Chun Kung Fu that gives you the necessary elasticity, suppleness, perceptivity, and precision to make the matrix work for you... however...

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pragmatist
Sad that we're as imperfect as this, isn't it? :)

Well, my fingers are falling off now, so any more output from my cerebrum will have to wait....