One of my best friends is a lesbian and she told us [a group of close friends, about five of us] to come with her to a 'cleansing' is what

she called it. I find out later on, she was instructed to not tell us what it was about, and that she needed to be very vague about it

when inviting us.

When visiting the forum, there were some very odd things I noticed, and from reading many of the chilling posts here, and on other sites

about The Forum [landmark] and it's clone companies, there are many many similarities and many of us [of course, not her] got very bad

vibes from all of this.

We were told the prices [which being a frugal person, I right off the bat was like.. fuck this, community counseling is free if you REALLY

need help, and sometimes if there's a study they even pay YOU]..

Right off the bat this uber - charisma guy takes the mic is is running around asking is people need positivity in their life, and want

positive change; he kept mentioning about 'the unlimited potential that people have' and 'we can help you reach your ultimate potential'

'great sex life' 'more energy' 'self fufillment' .. etc - it just seemed almost like a church service without the faith. I'm not a very

religeous person and so large groups of people with obvious 'zealot' looks in their eyes make me extremely nervous.

After hearing an 'empowerment speech' as they called it, we heard two major sob stories.. a lady who was abused by her father [total

plant] and a young stoner-esque couple who got back from "the best experience of our lives on the wisdom vacation" [again, I'm 100% sure

they were actors] - the guy took the mic again and was like.. why don't you take a break and sign up for the begining course because [get

this] - you can't commit to changing your life, without a down payment.

No no .. SERIOUSLY - he said this! That your life doesn't start to change unless you actually put the money down, because money speaks

more than words.. anyone can say 'I'm going to join.. and go home and forget' but 'commitment' requires a down payment.

Next we were told to speak to the person who brought us, and ask them why we should be here, and why we need help. [I'm more than self

critical, and I really don't need someone else "projecting" why I need help onto me..] and then we were all instructed to sign up for the

begineer courses..

Gold name tags everywhere, lined the walls, watching the crowd as if observing our body language, and constantly asking 'are you okay' or

'how are you doing? can I sign you up' .. etc.

There's a pen under all of your seats, the man at the front said as he continued to give another 'empowering speech' and then said, let's

take another break - and ask your friend, why do you think I need help? [again, pretty much the same thing, more signing up, without

giving us any idea of what we were signing up for] yet - people REALLY did sign up and I just can't seem to understand why.

At this point, I was done.. and my friend and I decided to go outside for a breath of fresh air [a cig for him, a clove for me] and I

noticed several others leaving as well to go outside; then the two 'plants' (the stoner/hippy couple) came outside, bummed a cigarette and

tried to 'play nice' with the circle of smokers over in another corner outside and inflenced a few of them inside; smokers being naturally

cynical most of them were not convinced and one girl even told them to fuck off as she walked away.

My friend Steve and I discussed some of the strangeness we felt, and some of the odd behavior as well as the excessive number of

'volunteers' that they had - later I found out the only person who made any money [and who collected all of the cash from our signups was

the big man at the front] .. all of the rest were 'volunteers' who 'got more out of it, than they put in'; there were over 30 volunteers -

this really struck me as VERY wrong and just didn't add up.

We basically weighed the descision of leaving, not so much in the idea that we would disappoint or upset Landmark Forum - but more the

fact that a good friend [and a roommate of his] was the one who invited us, would probably be pissed or "disappointed" in us - mainly

because she's obviously fallen in so deep.

We decided if we needed this 'help' so bad, we could probably get it from a weekend trip to skiing or a hiking trip, and smoking a lot of

pot or a bottle of whiskey and sharing stories. Friendship is stronger than any cult-esque training program, and it's definitly has opened

my eyes - it's the new religeon without religeon - it's being a zealot without having any faith, it's as empty as the soul and the

Landmark 'secret' - you're supposed to get 'it' = life is empty and meaningless; and it’s empty and meaningless that it’s empty and

meaningless.

This is BULLSHIT.

Life is NOT empty, my life is full of fun, laughter, joy, sadness, hatred, sin, virtue, and everything that makes us human.

Life is not meaningless, if it is - why not just kill yourself? If you really believe that life is empty and meaningless than why do you

care to help yourself, or help others, or in that vein: even to live?

Perhaps Landmark wants people to believe their lives are empty and meaningless, and through their rigid repression of past guilt [which we

all know from our intro to psychology class is a BAD THING], excusing people and allowing them to wallow in self pity, and the worst is

that these financial and emotional leeches are expanding to other parts of the globe and people are signing up by storm.

Their methods of recruitment are entireley suspect, going through emotional channels of friendship and family, using these weaknesses to

bring people inside with the promises that all of their needs, desires, and potential can be fufilled for only the low price of X dollars

is ridiculous. People say, they are more authentic and down to earth, because they don't advertise - well, advertising you can always

ignore or choose not to look at, there's places or advertising - but something like this, sneaks under the wire, under the defenses and

uses word of mouth for it's own profitiability, because everyone knows word of mouth if more believable - especially if it promises all

that which is almost undeniably desired.

Most people don't know about the roots of the Landmark Forum, or other subsects [Lifespring, Life Change Inc, Life Awareness Seminars,

etc] - but the original writer was a Scientologist, an OT5 [or "clear", the highest known rank the church has]; he developed a rigid,

brainwashing method by depriving people of sleep, movement, bathroom breaks, etc while he would shatter their emotional and mental state

over the period of an entire day (when the mind is tired, the mind is weak; when the body is weak, the mind is weaker - Ichigo). These

people use your weakness and the chinks in your emotional armor in order to recruit you and make you feel as if you are weak, inferior [on

a mental, emotional, and spiritual level], then they dangle a promise of paradise and fufillment in front of your eyes. "The world is in

your hands.." we were told by one person who had completed the course and was a current volunteer.

Werner Erhard [aka: John Rosenberg] originally developed the 'technology' using a hodgepodge of mostly scientology high level "training

techniques" [also known to many cult awareness websites, the best being Rickross.com as 'brainwashing'], zen abusive training, mental

weakening, and basic common sense wrapped up in enigmatic cloak of bullshit and circular logic. His training was known as EST [Erhard

Seminar Training] also convieniently named "est" or latin for 'it is', and promises to help people get 'it' which no one ever does.

Empty promises and a billion dollars later, Werner Erhard/John Rosenberg sold the company to his scientologist brother, Jack Rosenberg and

fled the country, and his brother renamed the company Landmark Education Corp. (LEC), and a public name - The Landmark Forum, or know

affictionatly by the 'successful zombies' who have left their jobs and families to work for the company, as "the Forum".

As you continue to work for the company, with time you will 'get it', and eventually will become a part of their pyramid scheme, bringing

more and more people to the groups for 'help', and perhaps one day become a leader who will travel the world and teach people of their

'problems' and continually recruit people from all walks of life, and probably make a decent living at it. If you feel like cheating

people out of their money, and really like sales with a slimey edge - this may just be the career for you (or if you really want to 'help'

people and prefer the zealot approach, then that works as well). I personally know two people who are going through the motions as

Landmark Leaders because of the profits, and I've had this admitted to me. These people don't want to help you, the most successful ones

are the best actors and 'empowerment' often leads to profits with strong sales techniques and a good dose of brainwashing (-cough-

training).

The aftereffects of this event has caused several strains on my group of close friends, and our friend Saunatina has consistantly been

trying to push our friend Jon into coming back to the Forum, as well as encouraging others to emotionally and socially attack others;

projecting her feelings of insecurity on others and making them feel negative or bad about their lives. This is classic peer pressure,

with a very close loving approach, and it's just fucking sick. Someone like Saunatina I'd always considered such a strong, willful person;

she was an indiviual, who didn't take shit from anyone, maybe she had some issues, but she was always original, confident, and fun. Now

she's become like an angry emotional zombie, who is in heavy recruitment mode and is pressuring our circle of friends and frankly, I'm

considing not being her friend anymore.

Landmark teaches you during the begining courses that your friends, family, churches, and lovers may turn against you when they hear the

'good news of your transformation', and will try to dissuade you, and tell you that 'you haven't changed'. Well I disagree, she has

changed, and to be honest- it's for the worst. If Landmark Education teaches you to 'have more fufilling friendships, sex life, and get

rich / become financially successful', then why is she hurting her friendships, unable to find a job, and is unsure of her own sexuality?

It hurts me to see something like this, sweeping like a plague and ripping people from their lives, their friends, their jobs, and their

families - to know that people fall into this kind of trap, lined with honey and empty promises, while breaking off all forms of love,

life, and relationships that previously their seemed to enjoy and shelling out their wallets [when they can't afford often].

Landmark Education runs from $450.00 for begining courses (9am-midnight, to tire your brain out and make it more vulerable), $700-100 for

the advanced courses, while the 'Wisdom' courses (there are several) all start at $1,500 and go up from there. As you can see, it's

obviously a profit mongering group, which will do anything to try and squeeze every resource out of you.

If Landmark Forum / Education really wanted to help people, why does it charge so much money?
Why does Landmark Forum have so many volunteers who work for free [The U.S. Department of Labor has a current case against Landmark

Education because they believe they are violating national laws on labor and human exploitation, because they are a FOR PROFIT company,

not a non-profit organization] - They are the new Starbucks of self-faith and empty, broken promises.

================================================

A very good way to describe the circles of logic used by cults and "organizations" like this is to find a way to defy logic, critical thinking, and any general semblence of skepticism by bending the social/verbal rules to their englightened selves.

A common feature of every LGAT, Cult, human potential seminar (Landmark), whatever similar organism that I have encountered or heard of or read about is that they have a gambit of semanticizing all discussion, most particularly discussion that concerns the Dominant Organism...

Pay close attention to the nature of this gambit and do not take your eye off the ball for a second...

To semanticize means to throw ordinary language itself into question... to suggest by implication that the LGAT (or whatever) has access to a special understanding, either about the true nature of the self, the true nature of reality, or the true purposes of existence that cannot be expressed using commonly held concepts/definitions or a commonly used vocabulary.

The Semantic Gambit is fundamentally rhetorical as it is a framing device that frames Outsiders or new inductees as fundamentally ignorant, incapable of "getting it" withoput adhering to a rigidly defined process (which can only be "truly understood" when the occult inner meanings of the semantically shifted in-house vocabulary is "truly understood")...

The Semantic Gambit serves to put the unfamiliar novice in a defensive position of being framed as operating from a position of ignorance or non-comprehension... and more insidiously, incapable of comprehension until an arduous process of indoctrination has taken place ... in plain English, it is a way to make you feel insecure and stupid and frame their junk as so far above your tiny mind you should thank them for letting you in on the secret.

IE: Anything you throw at them is a 'racket', because you're 'always holding yourself back' - they are always right, you are always wrong.

==============================================

<b>Do not be a zombie, who's life is empty or meaningless.</b>

Fight for the right to keep your own mind, and don't join this CULT.
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it's probably a duck.

And don't think you're safe just yet, there are MANY other companies [started by landmark graduates] which use the EXACT
same formula (signups, volunteers, pressure, same exact 'training' techniques, etc) that Landmark utilizes, it's basically
Landmark Education by different names, again often started by those who finally 'got it' - being the head of a legal pyramid scheme.

LSS (Life Success Seminar), Lifespring, Sterling Inc, PSI 7 ["The Farm/The Ranch"], IMPACT, and other LGAT.
If you're not aware, LGAT stands for Large Group Awareness Training.
Other names many of these companies go by: Women's Weekend, Asiaworks, Indiaworks, GDT, MSIA, Mankind Project,
EST Renewal, LEC, UMKC, Fire Seed, Cannon Training and Devleopment, Aji Network, etc.

So many people have lost their lovers, friends, and family members to these sorts of modern, corporate, seemingly nice cults.

For more personal stories on the horrors of Landmark Education / Landmark Forum visit:
[www.culteducation.com] (especially view the 'Personal Stories' section, near half way down the page)

Or join the forums at: [forums.culteducation.com] for more stories, updates on these groups, and discussions.

Quote
electronicoffee
My friend Steve and I discussed some of the strangeness we felt, and some of the odd behavior as well as the excessive number of

'volunteers' that they had - later I found out the only person who made any money [and who collected all of the cash from our signups was

the big man at the front] .. all of the rest were 'volunteers' who 'got more out of it, than they put in'; there were over 30 volunteers -

this really struck me as VERY wrong and just didn't add up.

The technical term for [b:219927c68b] "the strangeness we felt" [/b:219927c68b] in clinical circles is [b:219927c68b] incongruity [/b:219927c68b] .... incongruent behavior, incongruent emotion will make you feel strange by evolutionary design.... what rather freaks me out about these training situations is they appear to be able to [b:219927c68b] disable incongruity filters [/b:219927c68b] .... YOU saw the bad acting as bad acting because it was so painfully incongruent to you... "strangeness" is part of you limbic mind's alarm system that "something is rotten in Denmark" ... there have been greatly gifted teachers who specialized in teaching congruity skills... after a ten day seminar in congruent communication you could pick out the tiniest things that you'd never have noticed.... the LGATs go the other way... they teach you how to be incongruent...

Quote
nutrino
yeah, well, "temporary" for you... and you are also making an extremely naive assumption, if I may say so, about how "temporary" the effects of clever group hypnotic inductions can be, with lots of embedded suggestions and language patterns coming at you injecting many subtle, or no so subtle shifts in belief and suggestion.... as some very chilling results from North Korean indoctination camps demonstrated in the late 1950s and early 1960s, within certain populations, some programming struck home and lodged in deeply...

I see. Perhaps this is where we start hitting the nail on the head. You mildly insinuated that my saying "I'm not stupid enough to fall for this s**t" perhaps means I am trying to deny something I am? Well what do you call this "lodged in deeply" and the all across general dislike of the lgat's methods? Dont be pissy now, you started the innuendos :).

Anyway, jabbing aside... I did not want to respond on a paragraph-by-paragraph basis, because as I said before, the argument is circular - and I can very well reframe it from my POV when it comes to the inevitability of using certain methods (albeit, slightly perturbing for _SOME_, which is a small minority, that can completely become "unhinged") to achieve the lgat's "traumatic effect", and firewalking type of effects.

So you can't have your cake and eat it too, to put it bluntly. You call for more transparency, "easing" into "it" (whatever "it" might be, defined by whomever holds these inspirational seminars) and you want an added-value experience - and I'm rather certain (based on personal experience) that you can not hope to get both. If you want the latter, rather than the former - then go enroll to a college class in psychology, and you can listen to the wise, bearded, thick-glassed professor with his Ph.D. in psychology who is 100% "ethical" and will regurgitate something he read somewhere, or some personal testimonial of his, without the traumatic effects of self-reflection, and reframing one's own belief system. Yes , I _understand_ - not an experience for EVERYONE - but then again, I'm sur eyou've heard of collateral damage. If they did _MORE_ harm than good, even SUBJECTIVELY speaking, a jury would've found them guilty by now, because we know what juries are comprised of - a bunch of _subjects_ who think subjectively, just as I did when I saw a dips*it trying to extort $35,000 USD for whiplash "injury" from a car accident, and got awarded his doctor's bills...... (and I initiated the decision between the jury members personally :) ).

Almost forgot, I see your two last replies to me were spaced out by nearly a week so to get to the other one :)...

I do not remember the 'instrumentalist/terminalist' distinction phrased by the forum instructor in such a way - perhaps because my hearing was selective to the parts of the thing I wanted to hear/understand - not all of it phased (aka "rubbed") me in a way that certain parts of it did... But I do understand your "... curiously, language itself can become fetishized, certain words can be libidinized with a fetish energy.... " statement.

You've now begun, with that statement, hitting on the core of who we are. I'm not sure much can be added to this discussion that hasn't been said so far in our/other people's posts and their interpretation of these experiences (or indoctrinations, if that makes more sense to others reading this). I _admit_ I'm a word/language fetishist. I admit that I read all kinds of stupid shi* in search of knowledge and/or the 25 cent word, _enlightment_. The _only_ way I can search for it, is via language. First in my mother tongue, now in English.

There is as many flat mountains, as much as there's green horses. I _know_ this - because that is how it was communicated to me. Through language. And I do know, I guess cause I'm a sentient, self-aware, and at times, relatively intelligent :), human being - so I know that I've assigned words that best represent my perception of what I call my reality. And I'm sure there's nothing I can _say_ to redefine that reality for you, right? Well, wrong....

Why? Even if there was no English language - even if I _wired_ all your synaptic nerves into a computer that could send signals to each part of your brain, be it the visual cortex, or your hearing centres - which is where you get your information of the external world from - you'd still need some _formalism_ to express these things - a _language_ to categorize these things, be it mathematics or what not....

So, you, my canadian comrade, are also a word/language fetishist, a pragmatic person, an instrumentalist/terminalist.... :) Are you denying that you are? Are you denying you are absorbing this bit of information via language and that you're bound to feel some "emotion" at this time about writing me back?

Insofar that it is a _fetish_ - I'd go a step further - it's an addiction, damn it... That screwed up pursuit of God, of the beginning and the end... and past the beginning and past the end - what is there? Other than the current words/language/ideas/beliefs to describe what's there - NOTHING else is there really that you'd care to know for more than 5 minutes of your time past reading this post (provided you go google for "God" or "Pursuit of God" or "Truth" or any of these 'deep' semantically overloaded terms).....

Language is a weapon by which imaginations, hearts and minds of people can be captured, as well as a means for expressing not only the physical realities that have been with us for 5 billion years, but also a tool for the extrapolation of the future, based on what we call the "present", and based on a set of ideas - most of which are results of some present uneasiness (e.g. hunger, to be bluntly primitive in the examples) that we're trying to remove....

Again, someone much smarter than you or I already has figured this out long before, you, I or rick ross were a glee in our father's eyes... So talk - you can call it "cheap" - until you get into a courtroom... or an LGAT , I suppose :)... then you realize our reality begins and ends with language. The actions that accompany the language - we call that meaning, I suppose, otherwise we all become funny comedians :)..... so that's my definition, and I'm sure yours may vary.

I seek constant verification of my ideas, even in an exact science like software engineering/comp sci. As a matter of fact, the more experience I get, the more unsure I become of myself, because I get intimidated on a daily basis how little I've learned in the 4 years in college. So now I want to "refresh" it with a master's.... whatever... nothing's gonna get refreshed other than my ego, and I know that quite well....so all I'm trying to do now is make enough money to get to a point where I dont have to work for a living. I can then focus on "changing the world", by probably less invasive means than LGATs, and more by focusing on action, a la Warren Buffet or Bill Gates type of action, if you catch my drift.... IT isnt' the money I yearn for so much as it is the deeper meaning of life... or moreover, the ability to make a difference and have someone say "he made me feel better because of X Y or Z". And in here, I exclude my wife :).... (I make her feel better quite often actually :) ).

And all I had at my disposal to tell you this is my primary fetish - language. So "sue" me :), mon ami...

-moi

"pragmatist":

What exactly is your point?

You seem to be flaming rather than engaging in any meaningful discussion.

Are you here to support and/or defend Landmark Education and its mass marathon training sessions?

Landmark has a history of bad press, complaints and personal injury lawsuits.

Don't you "get that"?

See [www.culteducation.com]

This research paper explains the problems, which seem inherent, within such programs.

That is the point.

Well, introducing bias into the discussion makes it more than a parroting experience. I've been to the Landmark forum, so I can speak from personal experience. I'm not defending it - I"m trying to explain it (which seems taboo everywhere, including the forum). Perhaps that is why it sounds like I am defending it. My point is to understand why it "works" or doesn't and how others, who have attended it, interpret it. There's only one person so far who seems to be able to hold up a conversation with me so far.... and this is why I participate here on your bulletin board.

I'm not sure I understand your point either - if you are hoping for a one-sided discussion, then what's the point of discussing this? I mean, sure, I can moan and complain about the lgat - but how does that help me understand it?

I am sorry for those who have been injured by "it". I have not been. Does this preclude me from posting questions and debating it? If it does, please let me know - I will gladly stop issuing any more posts/replies. Didn't want to agitate the one person who controls my destiny on here...

-pragmatist

Quote
rrmoderator
"pragmatist":

What exactly is your point?

You seem to be flaming rather than engaging in any meaningful discussion.

Are you here to support and/or defend Landmark Education and its mass marathon training sessions?

Landmark has a history of bad press, complaints and personal injury lawsuits.

Don't you "get that"?

See [www.culteducation.com]

This research paper explains the problems, which seem inherent, within such programs.

That is the point.

"pragmatist":

The "that's not my experience" response does seem a bit boring and repetitive here.

That's the same apology offered by almost every Landmark fan.

Fine.

There are many Landmark graduates that feel otherwise.

The French television program that went inside the Forum and actually provided firsthand observation of the seminar and its volunteers is very telling.

See [board.culteducation.com]


No wonder Landmark packed up and left France.

The experts gathered by the network to explain what's wrong with Landmark are quite detailed in their analysis.

Doesn't leave much to be further explained by you.

It seems like you just want to argue or attempt to spin apologies.

Quote
pragmatist
If you want the latter, rather than the former - then go enroll to a college class in psychology, and you can listen to the wise, bearded, thick-glassed professor with his Ph.D. in psychology who is 100% "ethical" and will regurgitate something he read somewhere, or some personal testimonial of his, without the traumatic effects of self-reflection, and reframing one's own belief system.

Self-reflection and "reframing one's belief system" have to be traumatic?

Quote
skeptic

Quote
pragmatist
If you want the latter, rather than the former - then go enroll to a college class in psychology, and you can listen to the wise, bearded, thick-glassed professor with his Ph.D. in psychology who is 100% "ethical" and will regurgitate something he read somewhere, or some personal testimonial of his, without the traumatic effects of self-reflection, and reframing one's own belief system.

Self-reflection and "reframing one's belief system" have to be traumatic?

Yes. In order to experience a belief-altering moment and deep self-reflection, typically, some level of emotional distress/trauma is required. Otherwise, you're just shooting blanks, polemicizing, having a one-way experience - and that's outward to inward - information only flows into your head, but you aren't saying anything "meaningful". What's "meaningful" in this context? Something that GREATLY concerns you, a past event,traumatic experience like getting fired, divorced, hurt in an accident, sexually molested, shaking addiction, or something equally traumatic.. for me it was my problem with authority for a long time - which hampered me in various setting, mostly corporations).

The two top things that bother people about a company like Landmark (and it doesn't end with them - Tony Robbins is another NLP devotee) is:

1) they charge money for what they do
2) no discernable product/service is perceived by those who never attend anything like this, and are just observing from the outside (like you are doing right now by reading RR) so it's easy to object to paying for a whole lot of "nothing", or "emotional" joy juice/snake oil as some have labeled it.

The real deal is - it is _not_ "nothing" or "snake oil". If you believe psychology and the power of the human mind to think all kinds of things (sicence,math,literature,existential themes, religions, Gods, etc) is "nothing" then, I suppose all this means NOTHING. But if you want to find out why you call yourself "Skeptic" on this forum, or why I became a "pragmatist" after being a cynic and basically an arrogant, assertive engineering/geeky prick for the better part of my life - then you go to one (or more) of these.

Hopefully, by not being afraid to share your bad memories/traumas (childhood or adult ones, don't matter) with others like you in a group setting - you will find out a thing or two about yourself that you haven't been able to find out so far by your ways of 'self-reflection' and 'belief-alteration' in a non-traumatic way.

If you want to find out if you're ready for something like the Landmark Forum 3 day seminar/marathon training - take a piece of paper, a pen - and write this down - "I am of sound mind and judgment, and I do not get (easily or at all) offended by any type of language. I also do not mind sharing details about my past experiences regardless of how bad/traumatic they were in front of a group of people/strangers and hearing about their past bad/traumatic experiences. I am able to sit on a chair for 3 days straight, 10-12 hours per day, and listen to what is being said as well as participate in a very structured manner".

If you can bite this, e.g. you know this about yourself to be true - as I knew of myself since NOTHING offends me that you can _SAY_ to me, regardless of how much you want to offend me - then pay your money, and take the forum. When you have heard all that is said - come back here, and I am quite sure I will not be able to shut you up on this forum.

If you are sick, on medication for some psychological disorder, or you are just weak in the knees when you hear emotionally overloaded stories from people and "can't take it", or you are "afraid" to bare your sould so that you can experience new types of emotions incurred by language (from others as well as you)- then don't do it. It will wreck you if you are feeble minded (or think of yourself as someone who is generally not adept at sharing information about most intimate past details of your life)...

-pragmatist

"Pragmatist:"

Let's review what you have admitted Landmark is all about.

Quote

"...some level of emotional distress/trauma is required...Something that GREATLY concerns you, a past event,traumatic experience like getting fired, divorced, hurt in an accident, sexually molested, shaking addiction, or something equally traumatic...share your bad memories/traumas (childhood or adult ones, don't matter) with others like you in a group setting - you will find out a thing or two about yourself that you haven't been able to find out so far by your ways of 'self-reflection' and 'belief-alteration' in a non-traumatic way."

However, as pointed out by Philip Cushman in his research about mass marathon training like Landmark Education...

They lack adequate participant-selection criteria.

They lack reliable norms, supervision, and adequate training for leaders.

They lack clearly defined responsibility.

They sometimes foster pseudoauthenticity and pseudoreality.

They sometimes foster inappropriate patterns of relationships.

They sometimes ignore the necessity and utility of ego defenses.

They sometimes teach the covert value of total exposure instead of valuing personal differences.

They sometimes foster impulsive personality styles and behavioral strategies.

They sometimes devalue critical thinking in favor of "experiencing" without self-analysis or reflection.

They sometimes ignore stated goals, misrepresent their actual techniques, and obfuscate their real agenda.

They sometimes focus too much on structural self-awareness techniques and misplace the goal of democratic education; as a result participants may learn more about themselves and less about group process.

They pay inadequate attention to decisions regarding time limitations. This may lead to increased pressure on some participants to unconsciously "fabricate" a cure.

They fail to adequately consider the "psychonoxious" or deleterious effects of group participation (or] adverse countertransference reactions.

Summing up:

Landmark leaders are not trained as psychologists or psychiatrists and accountable as board certified to perform psychotherapy or group therapy, which is what they are actually doing according to your admissions and what others have stated at this board.

They are not qualified or properly trained to deal with "bad memories/traumas (childhood or adult ones..."

There have been many personal injuries associated with Landmark. Landmark's response is to supposedly "screen" potential participants, but still more injuries have occurred.

Landmark's further response is to insist that participants sign a waiver through which they waive the right to a trial before a jury if they sustain a personal injury. Instead, if injured Landmark participants must submit to binding arbritration, which means no lawyer would take their case on contingency. This precludes most litigation like a "poison pill."

Psychologists, psychiatrists, certified counselors don't require such a waiver and take responsibility for their work and job performance.

It's better to seek help from properly trained and cerified professionals that assume full liability for their work than Landmark's amateur therapists.

Landmark is not really concerned with resolving the problems of its customers objectively. Instead, Landmark is engaged in teaching its philosophy, which was concocted by "Werner Erhard" a.k.a. "Jack" Rosenber, a high school graduate with no formal training or credentials, other than a history as a salesman.

Also remember these points researched by Philip Cushman, Ph.D.

He said mass marathon training groups become "dangerous" when they do these four things:

Leaders had rigid, unbending beliefs about what participants should experience and believe, how they should behave in the group. and when they should change.

Leaders had no sense of differential diagnosis and assessment skills, valued cathartic emotional breakthroughs as the ultimate therapeutic experience, and sadistically pressed to create or force a breakthrough in every participant.

Leaders had an evangelical system of belief that was the one single pathway to salvation.

Leaders were true believers and sealed their doctrine off from discomforting data or disquieting results and tended to discount a poor result by, "blaming the victim."

Landmark can easily be seen to demonstrate all four.

For further proof see this inside look of a Landmark Forum filmed with hidden cameras in France.

See [www.archive.org]

Landmark leader Alain Roth calls a woman attending the seminar an "asshole" and humiliates her before hundreds of people for about an hour. This demonstrates the ethics, learning level and expertise of a Landmark leader firsthand and on film.

See [www.cultnews.com]

This is an article I recently wrote about the documentary.

If you were really a "pragmatist" you would not pay for counseling or group therapy through Landmark and instead be paying a recognized professional that assumes full liability for their work.

Quote
pragmatist
The two top things that bother people about a company like Landmark (and it doesn't end with them - Tony Robbins is another NLP devotee) is:

1) they charge money for what they do
2) no discernable product/service is perceived by those who never attend anything like this, and are just observing from the outside (like you are doing right now by reading RR) so it's easy to object to paying for a whole lot of "nothing", or "emotional" joy juice/snake oil as some have labeled it.

[ . . . ] (I don't know how to have more than one quote in a post -skeptic)

The real deal is - it is _not_ "nothing" or "snake oil". If you believe psychology and the power of the human mind to think all kinds of things (sicence,math,literature,existential themes, religions, Gods, etc) is "nothing" then, I suppose all this means NOTHING. But if you want to find out why you call yourself "Skeptic" on this forum, or why I became a "pragmatist" after being a cynic and basically an arrogant, assertive engineering/geeky prick for the better part of my life - then you go to one (or more) of these.

My computer ineptitude aside, I have a couple things in response to the two excerpts above.

There is yet another thing that "bothers" some of us about lgats, and that is the (psychological) tactic of thought reform. Btw, I am not "just observing from the outside". I was a true believer, involved in a Lifespring spinoff, for six years. I've also paid for and experienced psychological help that was very different from the "psychology" used in lgats. Lgats use psychology against the participants, and it's my opinion that those unlicensed quacks have no business practicing psychology.

Is Landmark the only psychological help you've experienced? Do you have anything to compare it to? There is much better help available, and it doesn't rely on abuse and deception and mindgames.

skeptic