I took the Landmark Forum Recently
Posted by:
MarkusWelch
()
Date: September 04, 2006 08:42AM
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nutrinoQuote
MarkusWelch
Please be careful with the 'bushitler' stuff while you make your 'cults are bad' points.
[b:942dfcf092] I am in no way equating Bush with Hitler. Nothing here was intended to equate Bush with Hitler. [/b:942dfcf092] My point was that closed off, self referential, power hungry groups and organizations can make some awfully bad decisions when they loose vital infotrmation and persepective inputs from outside (whatever it is they define as) their comfort zone....
If there is any equivalance here, it is that, as a piece of military strategy, the invasion of the Soviet Union was doomed by the refusal of Hitler to learn from history... as he appeared to be guided by an "infallible instinct" and led by what appeared to be a kind of psychotic charisma...
The decision to invade Iraq appears to have been a case of civilian ideologues... who nobody has said were Nazis... particularly Donald Rumsfeld.... overroad the collective decision process of military professionals because he was a "true believer" in a new doctrine of the swift, agile, light war that replaced the Powell Doctrine with the idea that extreme precision air wars and special forces type infiltrations would supercede the concept of overwhelming force advocated by Powell.
You WOULD have thought that Rumsfeld would have learned a thing or two about assymetric war from the Vietnam era and maybe a thing or three about the need for strong [b:942dfcf092] HUMINT [/b:942dfcf092] ... good local intelligence so you could look into the other side's playbook....
But, noooooooooo.
And now, good citizens... we are about to attempt an invasion of a mountainous, rugged land (Irag is a very flat river plain for the most part) many times larger than Iraq.... when we are already overextended ?
You have to wonder.... how DO they think these things up ?
Criticize Bush and the post 9/11 actions as you will.
Your characterizations of power-hungry etc is not in good faith, IMO.
Do dictatorships have a moral right to exist? There's your bonus question.
Of course you don't think so, right?
You're an observant and articulate person Nutrino. But we're not over-extended, and Iraq was a brutal dictatorship. (Later in the post you managed to confuse some of the democrat talking points, I suspect.)
Nevertheless you 'bought' the democrat talking points, and you do the servicemen and women great harm in the process.
What is one to think when DKOS prints things like "Al Gore, our elected president." ???????? Or 'screw them'. Remember that? That was in reference to 4 US citizens killed, their bodies burned and then hanged from a bridge.
That is DKOS.
The guy is a lunatic.
Let's not turn this into a political war. Leave your political comments out unless they have some specific relation to the discussion.
If you feel they can't be left out...start a new thread and as two gentlemen and anti-cult posters we can discuss the political issues.
I took the Landmark Forum Recently
Posted by:
nutrino
()
Date: September 04, 2006 05:06PM
Quote
MarkusWelch
Your characterizations of power-hungry etc is not in good faith, IMO.
Meaning that I don't mean what I say ? Meaning that I don't have a thought through perspective ? Meaning you are in the sole possession of the truth ? I should kowtow to you and your opinions ?
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MarkusWelch
Do dictatorships have a moral right to exist? There's your bonus question.
The real question is what do plan to do with all of them ?
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MarkusWelch
Of course you don't think so, right?
see above.
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MarkusWelch
You're an observant and articulate person Nutrino. But we're not over-extended
The hell we're not.
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MarkusWelch
Nevertheless you 'bought' the democrat talking points, and you do the servicemen and women great harm in the process.
You sir, are talking utter claptrap. Explain to me how I'm harming them. Which ones specifically ? In what manner ?
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MarkusWelch
What is one to think when DKOS prints things like "Al Gore, our elected president." ???????? Or 'screw them'. Remember that? That was in reference to 4 US citizens killed, their bodies burned and then hanged from a bridge.
Don't know, never saw much of his stuff. Al Gore might well be our elected president, probably is... nothing much I can do about it nor do I much care to worry about it.
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MarkusWelch
That is DKOS.
Big deal.
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MarkusWelch
The guy is a lunatic.
Takes one to know one it appears.
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MarkusWelch
Let's not turn this into a political war. Leave your political comments out unless they have some specific relation to the discussion.
Don't presume to instruct me on what I will or will not say.
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MarkusWelch
If you feel they can't be left out...start a new thread and as two gentlemen and anti-cult posters we can discuss the political issues.
They were raised as a temporary excursus, not the dominant thrust of the argument.
I took the Landmark Forum Recently
Posted by:
MarkusWelch
()
Date: September 05, 2006 01:48AM
I'm not going to debate politics with you here. That is and has been my point Nutrino.
Start a new thread, or email me, or pm me, or go to AFL. My suggestion *again* is that there are other, perhaps better, venues to promote your political views.
Start a new thread, or email me, or pm me, or go to AFL. My suggestion *again* is that there are other, perhaps better, venues to promote your political views.
I took the Landmark Forum Recently
Posted by:
elena
()
Date: September 05, 2006 04:02AM
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MarkusWelch
It should be noted that Markos Moulitsas Zuniga (Dkos) is a far-left moonbat.[/q]
Are you disputing the facts or assertions of the article?
Ellen
I took the Landmark Forum Recently
Posted by:
nutrino
()
Date: September 05, 2006 04:36AM
Quote
MarkusWelch
I'm not going to debate politics with you here. That is and has been my point Nutrino.
[b:01c57a2770] You don't appear to be too sharp about taking your own advice. [/b:01c57a2770]Debating politics is exactly what you have engaged. Do whatever turns you on. I raised the national leadership issue [i:01c57a2770] because [/i:01c57a2770] it is my considered opinion that [i:01c57a2770] cult or cult formed dynamics [/i:01c57a2770] have had a meaningful impact on our political culture... so it is a false distinction to say that you have a cult discussion on one hand and a political discussion on the other and never the twain shall meet... I know, firsthand experience in Washington DC, about certain elements of this that I'm not going to publish in this forum... if you don't like my way of thinking, well, there are many places where you can comfortably preach to the choir... [b:01c57a2770] you sling a lot of half baked rhetoric then you can't back it up [/b:01c57a2770]... which is itself a distinguishing characteristic of the cult style ... all of which is fairly indicative that [b:01c57a2770] you're the same apologist-shill-troll-headcase that keeps turning up here with some frequency... [/b:01c57a2770] ... in slightly different sock puppet garb... drilling for outrage... looking for a wedge issue... but each time, stoking the dabate then running for cover while never actually getting substantive at the level of the dabate...[b:01c57a2770] kind of an Erhardian manoeuver, ya know... we seen it before... [/b:01c57a2770]
I took the Landmark Forum Recently
Posted by:
nutrino
()
Date: September 05, 2006 04:44AM
Quote
elena
Are you disputing the facts or assertions of the article?
Ellen
"Markus" was getting his jollies. Hell be back as somebody else with some other earth shattering issue to get bug eyed about. Mercury goes retrograde and things start stirring.... my inner child wants to cry...
I took the Landmark Forum Recently
Posted by:
MarkusWelch
()
Date: September 05, 2006 05:20AM
Quote
nutrinoQuote
MarkusWelch
I'm not going to debate politics with you here. That is and has been my point Nutrino.
[b:f26c2373cb] You don't appear to be too sharp about taking your own advice. [/b:f26c2373cb]Debating politics is exactly what you have engaged. Do whatever turns you on. I raised the national leadership issue [i:f26c2373cb] because [/i:f26c2373cb] it is my considered opinion that [i:f26c2373cb] cult or cult formed dynamics [/i:f26c2373cb] have had a meaningful impact on our political culture... so it is a false distinction to say that you have a cult discussion on one hand and a political discussion on the other and never the twain shall meet... I know, firsthand experience in Washington DC, about certain elements of this that I'm not going to publish in this forum... if you don't like my way of thinking, well, there are many places where you can comfortably preach to the choir... [b:f26c2373cb] you sling a lot of half baked rhetoric then you can't back it up [/b:f26c2373cb]... which is itself a distinguishing characteristic of the cult style ... all of which is fairly indicative that [b:f26c2373cb] you're the same apologist-shill-troll-headcase that keeps turning up here with some frequency... [/b:f26c2373cb] ... in slightly different sock puppet garb... drilling for outrage... looking for a wedge issue... but each time, stoking the dabate then running for cover while never actually getting substantive at the level of the dabate...[b:f26c2373cb] kind of an Erhardian manoeuver, ya know... we seen it before... [/b:f26c2373cb]
I've only 30-some posts in over 4 years as a registered user and I always use my legal name, for your information.
I made a recommendation that political views be left out of the cult discussion here (www.culteducation.com). What part of that recommendation do you not understand?
I took the Landmark Forum Recently
Posted by:
MarkusWelch
()
Date: September 05, 2006 05:50AM
Quote
elena
Are you disputing the facts or assertions of the article?
Ellen
The political discussion itself does not belong here, does it?
Perhaps you can start a new thread called 'cults and politics' and I'll be happy to respond, assuming Mr. Ross would allow such a thread to exist on his site.
BTW- You are free to correct Nutrino, who seems to have a false impression of my character.
I took the Landmark Forum Recently
Posted by:
nutrino
()
Date: September 05, 2006 06:26AM
What I understand all to clearly is that it is possible to label, or categorize certain discussions as off limits because they are "political"... [i:d2ef2c388e] as if that indicates a sacroscant status... [/i:d2ef2c388e] ... and I have a firm counterpoint to this assertion... that the "political" isn't such an airtight category, that a multitude of "non-political" issues do impinge on this sacred cow of a topic... and the reverse dynamic can be in play... previously "non-political" issues can become politicized, such as the theory of evolution.. or when and where one can invoke a Deity (take your pick) ... or what constitutes "free speech" ... or what is the boundary between the personal and the public... or what you can and cannot do with an osteoblast... and the list goes on, and on, and on... so if we're going to have a wide open discussion of the impact of cult thinking, cult methods, cult stylisitcs we're also going to net some interesting fish in the process... just because you're displeased with my opinions doesn't make them "in bad faith" ... [b:d2ef2c388e] when I turn around and give you a spoon of your own bad faith characterization you didn't seem to like it too much [/b:d2ef2c388e], how unfair of me, yet you feel at liberty to characterize my perspective as being in bad faith... so don't be too surprised when your boomerangs come back to ding you in the head...
So far you haven't made a substantive response to anything except that "politics don't belong here" [b:d2ef2c388e] while daintily avoiding any precision in your complaints [/b:d2ef2c388e]... after making some rather vigorous assertions about the nature of some other persons...
Which all leads me to believe, whatever your role or agenda is, that you are investing a good deal of effort in foreclosing this line of thought... which then leads to some rather intriguing possibilities...
As for your character.... adjectives like [i:d2ef2c388e] rigid , stubborn, self satisfied, and unreflective [/i:d2ef2c388e] come to mind... although I'm sure we'll be getting to know you better in the near future...
So far you haven't made a substantive response to anything except that "politics don't belong here" [b:d2ef2c388e] while daintily avoiding any precision in your complaints [/b:d2ef2c388e]... after making some rather vigorous assertions about the nature of some other persons...
Which all leads me to believe, whatever your role or agenda is, that you are investing a good deal of effort in foreclosing this line of thought... which then leads to some rather intriguing possibilities...
As for your character.... adjectives like [i:d2ef2c388e] rigid , stubborn, self satisfied, and unreflective [/i:d2ef2c388e] come to mind... although I'm sure we'll be getting to know you better in the near future...
I took the Landmark Forum Recently
Posted by:
MarkusWelch
()
Date: September 05, 2006 07:16AM
Quote
nutrino
What I understand all to clearly is that it is possible to label, or categorize certain discussions as off limits because they are "political"... [i:48680788cf] as if that indicates a sacroscant status... [/i:48680788cf] ... and I have a firm counterpoint to this assertion... that the "political" isn't such an airtight category, that a multitude of "non-political" issues do impinge on this sacred cow of a topic... and the reverse dynamic can be in play... previously "non-political" issues can become politicized, such as the theory of evolution.. or when and where one can invoke a Deity (take your pick) ... or what constitutes "free speech" ... or what is the boundary between the personal and the public... or what you can and cannot do with an osteoblast... and the list goes on, and on, and on... so if we're going to have a wide open discussion of the impact of cult thinking, cult methods, cult stylisitcs we're also going to net some interesting fish in the process... just because you're displeased with my opinions doesn't make them "in bad faith" ... [b:48680788cf] when I turn around and give you a spoon of your own bad faith characterization you didn't seem to like it too much [/b:48680788cf], how unfair of me, yet you feel at liberty to characterize my perspective as being in bad faith... so don't be too surprised when your boomerangs come back to ding you in the head...
So far you haven't made a substantive response to anything except that "politics don't belong here" [b:48680788cf] while daintily avoiding any precision in your complaints [/b:48680788cf]... after making some rather vigorous assertions about the nature of some other persons...
Which all leads me to believe, whatever your role or agenda is, that you are investing a good deal of effort in foreclosing this line of thought... which then leads to some rather intriguing possibilities...
As for your character.... adjectives like [i:48680788cf] rigid , stubborn, self satisfied, and unreflective [/i:48680788cf] come to mind... although I'm sure we'll be getting to know you better in the near future...
You are free to "get to know me" by going to AFL with one simple query.
I use my legal name, remember it? "Markus Welch" You can even look up my posts, few as they might be, here.
Rigid, stubborn, self-satisfied...might actually describe me well, even upon reflection.......
Go to AFL with this nonsense Nutrino. I'll debate about any topic you wish.
Leave your political agenda/comments out of RickRoss.com. What is so hard to understand about that?
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