[b:039c678cad] Fernando Flores [/b:039c678cad]..... a major hidden force in the history of [b:039c678cad] est [/b:039c678cad] and the thinking that animates Landmark today.... it was also he who introduced the concept of [b:039c678cad] "coaching" [/b:039c678cad] as a non-sports related human interaction... you can thank him for the proliferation of "life coaches" in this day and age.... in the early 80s, Flores tried to organize work around a cluster of linguistic distinctions, [b:039c678cad] requests, asessments, declarations, and declines [/b:039c678cad] ... a little of it took hold but his communication software that was supposed to revolutionize corporate America was widely derided as "Naziware" ... and Flores who was supposed to emerge as the next Marshall McLuhan (another hopeless lightweight the public imagination had seized on) faded into obscurity about the time that Werner Hans Rosenberg von Savage fell out of the sky like a hyperthyroidal Icarus stripped of his wings... most of the Landmark truthoids they hold aloft as the deepest profundity are derived from this largely inconsequential philosopher... of course, if you were to ask any of them where, precisely, they got these thougt patterns from, theyd hem and haw because they either don't know, don't care to know, or are all too aware of the thin ice they're walking on.... linear thinkers make them uneasy and for good reason...

I've read this thread with interest and am disturbed by some of the participants who attack Myles for trying to get input from others about Landmark and expressing his experiences of it. One example I noted enough to copy and post is this one directed at him:
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I'm tired of all this and I will not tolerate any harassment from you trying to break my spirit
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Come on. that's crazy/sick stuff. I'm experiencing a cultishness about this forum that parallels the behaviour of the supposed cults; not by everyone, just some.

For me, I haven't taken any Landmark courses. I did take the est workshop a long time ago, with Werner as leader for one weekend, and left railing against it. But over some time, I realized I got some very important realizations and changes in my life from it. I also volunteered a few times in the office and saw some pretty bad stuff going on, along with some very good stuff. For me, there's value there but don't get sucked in to the extreme stuff. Keep your head and pick and choose.

mwr:

There is no leader here and it's free.

Hardly "cultish."

People at times disagree here, which is typical of discussion groups.

EST had a sordid history of complaints, lawsuits, bad press and so did Erhard.

Landmark carried on that tradition and is run by Erhards brother and sister since he supposedly "sold out."

LGATs (large group awareness training) like EST, Lifesring, Sterling, MKP and others are problematic from the way they are initially set up.

See [www.culteducation.com]

The dynamics of LGATs are such that you really can't "pick and choose."

Instead you are stuck with the LGAT and its dynamics for the weekend unless you walk out.

LGATs are risky and potentially unsafe. That's why some such as Landmark want you to sign a release form waiving the right to a trial by jury if you get hurt.

There are so many safer alternatives through continuing education at colleges, counseling by licensed professionals that are accountable and also support groups through community services there is no need to get involved with LGATs.

Whatever "good stuff" they may have can gotten elsewhere without the attending risk and possible harm.

Since Heidegger is much of what EST/Landmark is all about you could read a book and learn the "stuff" Erhard copied to create his composite philosophy that is the core of what EST taught as LGAT "technology."

See [www.culteducation.com]

That is, if you like Heidegger and want to "get it."

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mwr
I've read this thread with interest and am disturbed by some of the participants who attack Myles for trying to get input from others about Landmark and expressing his experiences of it. One example I noted enough to copy and post is this one directed at him:
-----------
I'm tired of all this and I will not tolerate any harassment from you trying to break my spirit
-----------

Come on. that's crazy/sick stuff. I'm experiencing a cultishness about this forum that parallels the behaviour of the supposed cults; not by everyone, just some.

Oh gee, right on schedule....

Someone picks up the "anti-cult-cult" thing and runs it up the flagpole to see if anyone salutes.

If you are "experiencing cultishness" here, (which I don't believe you are), you are sadly misguided, "mwr." Surely you must know how many newly-minted "graduates" either get sent over here as a "homework assignment" or "volunteers" wander over to try to float that silly Landmark ploy. Almost as silly as L. Ron Hubbard and Werner Erhard claiming that everbody in the world is hypnotized and their, (ElRon's and Werner's), programs "wake them up." I suppose if you've still got customers after trying that one, you've managed to corral the truly gullible and running the rest of your stupid scam is a walk in the park.

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For me, I haven't taken any Landmark courses. I did take the est workshop a long time ago, with Werner as leader for one weekend, and left railing against it. But over some time, I realized I got some very important realizations and changes in my life from it. I also volunteered a few times in the office and saw some pretty bad stuff going on, along with some very good stuff. For me, there's value there but don't get sucked in to the extreme stuff. Keep your head and pick and choose.

Yeah, right. Just try a little. Don't worry though, you can just spit out the bits that taste bad or off (and hope you can tell which dishes have the colorless, tasteless, odorless poison mixed in).

What are you thinking? That this trick will still work in 2006? (On the few who mightn't have done any looking around, maybe. Those are the ones you want anyway, aren't they - ones who don't spend a lot of time engaged in research, questioning, or critical analysis. Makes your job that much easier, huh?)



Yuck,


Ellen

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elena
What are you thinking? That this trick will still work in 2006?

Boy, what a reaction to my newbie (to this forum) posting about my experience of this thread. Accusing me of something you completely created out of your mind. It's pretty consistant with the rest of the thread, though. Myles certainly has more patience with this type of thing than I do. I've seen enough and will look elsewhere for honest, straight-thinking discussion.

"Honest straight thinking"?

Right.

It seems you mean people that agree with you.

Ah yes.. [b:4d27806f78] the anti cult cult ploy [/b:4d27806f78] .... another standard issue table turner... this manoeuver crops up with just enough regularity, and has been thusly cropping up over the years, that it now seems to be one of the standard rhetorical tub thumpings that comes from way yonder round the bend... now, good people, why please do the trainers go to such initial efforts to make light of how [b:4d27806f78] "some (implication: ill informed, out of touch, confused) people think we are a cult !!! Imagine that, how silly of them !!! " [/b:4d27806f78] which they don't seem to grasp is only begging the question... like, if you aren't this thing, why do you need to fixate on telling us that you aren't this thing ??? Has a funny, something is rotten in Denmark Prince Hamlet kind of, you know, aroma to it, dontcha think.... O Ha Ha, how much we aren't what they say we are, foolish infidels, so hypnotized, so asleep, so looking in the rearview mirror, so at effect, so lacking in Heiddegger, so deficient in Kirkegaard, so not perfect just the way they are, unlike us here, not a cult you see, nope, nothing like that, we're a corporation you know, perfect just the way we are, so how could you be otherwise than speaking to the possibility of speaking to the possibility of... uh, what was I saying ? You're not getting this ? By your not getting this you selfish little shit you want to keep everbody else from getting it ? Oh yes, peace and love, we really are more on your side than you are, just more impeccably so, oh yes, far more ninja, far more samurai, far more Don Juan Matus... us a cult.... oh ROFLMAO!!! That is just precious, what a comedian you are, a real thigh slapper, at last we meet dude... so you worthless fuck up why haven't you enrolled anybody ? You just aren't getting it you pathetic loser, perfect just like you are, you wimp, you transformed possibility of possibility, what, you're confused, what are you confused about ? You don't have the guts to transform your scrawny ass to the next level, you come whining to me ? Authenticity, man, authenticity, your racket is so inauthentic, give me a hug, now go die, and by the way thank yu for sharing, wasn't that great ? Give him a hand everybody!

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mwr

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elena
What are you thinking? That this trick will still work in 2006?

Boy, what a reaction to my newbie (to this forum) posting about my experience of this thread. Accusing me of something you completely created out of your mind. It's pretty consistant with the rest of the thread, though. Myles certainly has more patience with this type of thing than I do. I've seen enough and will look elsewhere for honest, straight-thinking discussion.

"Myles" was a phoney. They're easy to spot when you know the formula. They show up here and everywhere else there are unflattering things said about Landmark. They are singularly lacking in imagination and tend to repeat the same retread script over and over (as have you).


Ellen

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elena
"Myles" was a phoney. They're easy to spot when you know the formula. They show up here and everywhere else there are unflattering things said about Landmark. They are singularly lacking in imagination and tend to repeat the same retread script over and over (as have you).
Ellen

You will notice this about them... particularly if you have been aware of them over a long stretch of time and have been able to watch their game plan in action... the deep down nitty gritty of it is that [b:fb9ecbc63d] they have nothing to say above and beyond reciting their shopworn formulae [/b:fb9ecbc63d] ... have you perhaps observed that every time an Erhardian defender/apologist/plant comes over here to take a potshot at the infidels he/she/they/it lasts about 3 poists maximum before their meager intellectual resources are exhausted ? They best they can do is hunker down into gnomic little thought fartings before they vanish into the night... and they call themselves an [b:fb9ecbc63d] "educational corporation" ??? [/b:fb9ecbc63d] .... if that quality of thought passes for education it makes the diploma by mail business look downright respectable. What , in the name of holy brainrot, is this glorious education all about ? They, or they who trundle over here, cannot even mount a coherent explanation of how they came to have their philosophies and beliefs, what it is they actually believe, what their worldviews are ? Oh, yes, and by the by, one would be simply obtuse to imagine that the senior levels of Landmark Education are not very aware of every word that passes on this board, and moreso, are not very aware of the implications of everything that is said here... and yet they are cagey about it, playing deaf and dumb, this after Art Screiber insisted that they had gone to the expense and effort of performing a textual analysis of the postings here... I mean, think about that, Artso was so concerned about what people were saying about his beautiful Landmark that they had a computer programmer attempt a structural analysis, and surely that cost them some coin, coin that Harry Erhard had to have approved, and... they were willing to engage in some serious litigation, take it to the mat, take a stand, walk the walk, all that hairy chested kick ass posturing, until, well, things just weren't, you know, astrologically aligned for the proper listening of the declaration of the listening, things weren't perfect the way they were, the negative energies were delistening the ontology of the declaration, um... being and time, you know, stuff, strange energy... and yet, for all this huffin' and puffin' and blowing yer little house down swagger and trainerly braggodocio (feed that line through your jive ass text analysis program why dontcha Artso) ... [b:fb9ecbc63d] they can't actually discuss their stuff or explain themselves or make any sort of clear headed account of what they are doing in an non-hermetically sealed training room environment type environment where real folks as 'em tough questions and don't settle for the easy peasy lemon squeezy put down shut down you be a sad clown, what they used to call in my day the Joe Fuck The Rag Man posture, now how ironic that they should inherit the mantle of Joe Fuck The Rag Man ... [/b:fb9ecbc63d] I mean.... who was this character, Werner's split off alter ego that he had made this huge metaphysical swamp out of to defend himself against, and gathered around him this lost confused souls who hungered for Uber-Daddy who was then conveniently forgotton or rationalized into the ether.... ??? Oh, butthey are so guarded, so cagey, so tight lipped, so full of coping mechanisms to dissappear the bad bogey man energies of critical thought , of non lovingness negatronic vibrations for Uber-Daddy and his claque of Uber-Trolls, [b:fb9ecbc63d] who in the final analysis reamin to this day with nothing to say [/b:fb9ecbc63d]

Analyse that, buttfungus.