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Myles

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the leader blasted her for "making him wrong" and running a "poor victim whose daddy doesn't lover her" racket.

Thank you for sharing that story. This reminds me of something remarkable that I saw in my forum.

A guy went up to the mike and said that his father was a drunk and an abusive father. He went into some very specific stories of abuse that had left the son thinking he was weak and worthless.

The leader said that impression of his father was a "racket". Well, the son could not see that. Neither could I. The father was obviously a drunk who abused his family... that's what I saw too. I felt like punching the leader in the nose for making this the son's responsibility. Just to look at the son, you saw someone that thought he was weak and worthless. You could see it.

This conversation went back and forth for about an hour until the leader explained the racket conversation another way.

He suggested that his father "John" is the only person in the whole world that is qualified to be "John". Then the leader agreed that what the father had done was terrible and no one will ever be likely to condone what he had done to his son and wife.

However, since "John" is the only person qualified in the world to be "John". He was being himself... perfectly. That made his father perfect at being his father.

I had never heard anything quite like that before. So, his father was perfect at being the abusive person that he was being. That way of explaining it, took what had happened to the son and separated it from the son's perception of himself.

Then the son started to cry saying, "what my father did to me is just what he did and it does not mean that I am weak and worthless."

Then, after all of this, the son looked over to the left side of the auditorium and said, "I forgive you dad."

The room went silent as his father and the guy's mother both walked up to the stage and hugged their son.

It was really just like that. The leader was VERY persistent to the point of making me uncomfortable for this guy. In the end he had separated what had happened to him away from what he had made the abuse mean about himself. Absolutely remarkable!

ABSOLUTE CRAP!

I have read this post with amazement. I forgot how easy it is for someone to become sucked in and then start "sharing" which is the new enrolment aka get people to register without being pressurised.

Landmark places the blame of any form of abuse on the the person who was abused... its a racket or a story or whatever else new word they have to tell you why its your problem not the abuser.

Ugh makes me so mad that I couldn't see this so clearly when I was involved with landmark.

Myles, what is the point of your being on this board, to me it comes across as your going to try and get us all to realise we are wrong in our views about the landmark forum. And I get the feeling that you are going to spout the "if you haven't done it you can't really say much about it theory"

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I created the poll because I wanted to understand the foundation of the opinions. Are the opinions formed from experience or not? It is also important to me to get a sense of how recent was the experience.

My opinion right now is based purely on experience without any basis of knowledge. It is a "blind experience". I joined this site to gain knowledge in order to validate my experience and to form a tested opinion.

I want to get an idea of how your opinion was formed and is it tested.

For example: I can read about sex and I can watch a movie about sex. That would be knowledge. It is absolutely possible to form an opinion for myself from having studied those resources. However, once I had experienced sex; I had a much deeper foundation from which to form my own opinion. When you add knowledge together with experience, the opinion has been tested.

Is your opinion is based on knowledge, on experience, or based on both?

Perhaps another example.... do you jump off the cliff to see if you really will get hurt or do you read the warnings and stay at the top? You don't have to experience something to know it is dangerous.

As it is I have experienced landmark and I firmly warn everyone I know off it!

Maybe I'm naive (not skeptical enough), but I got the impression that Myles is here to hear this side of the story. That's to his/her credit! I wish I'd found something like this when I got involved. That said, I think it can be damn hard for some people to make an objective assessment once they've seen and experienced the "breakthroughs" and "transformations", no matter the source or quality of the information obtained. And that's the power and the danger of LGATs. Ya just can't think straight after being run through one.

During my years in the Lifespring offspring, I had questions and reservations. I wish I had a place to take them to. Had I brought them here, I would have presented them through the LGAT filter, using LGAT language. Despite that, somewhere inside me, my concerns and confusion were real. The first couple years that I was out of the group, I still spoke and thought in LGAT style. It took awhile to unravel the LIE. Even while I was taking the lie apart, piece by piece, I used the LGAT perspective to do it! I was truly CON-fused.

I don't think Myles is here to recruit anyone!

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Myles

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Not to mention that he left "did you do est?" out. <sniff, sniff> We just don't get no respect no more.

I meant no disrespect. What is "est" and how is "est" related to this topic?

Oh, brother! :roll:

The est training was started in the 1970s by Werner Erhard, whom I'm sure you can find a lot of information about. I'd especially recommend "Outrageous Betrayal" by Stephen Pressman. There are some excerpts on the web. In 1991, after a lot of bad publicity, most notably an expose by "60 Minutes", Werner Dear loaded his car in the middle of the night and skipped the country. He sold the "technology" of est to some of the employees, headed up by his brother, Harry Rosenberg. (Werner's gone by a number of names. His family name is Rosenberg.) The new company, using the old technology, became Landmark Education. The Landmark Forum is the est training with a new brand name. Landmark tries very hard to say it isn't, but it is.

So, if you want "experience", I've got it! Close to thirty years of it. I was very sucked in for a few years, but even after I got out, my mind was still imprisoned by the "technology". All in all, I'd say I lost about 20 years of my life, time I'll never get back.

All these groups have some "value". They'd never get anyone interested if they didn't. But it isn't worth selling your soul to the devil for.

Read all the articles on this site on Landmark and est.

estie
"there and back again"

see below ...

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skeptic
Maybe I'm naive (not skeptical enough), but I got the impression that Myles is here to hear this side of the story. That's to his/her credit... ...I don't think Myles is here to recruit anyone!

Yes, I also get the impression that alot of Landmark apologists end up on this site looking for the elusive logic that they need to get out.

So keep reading, Myles. You can't speak truly about Landmark until you add the experience of leaving to your knowledge, then you will be able to have an opinion...

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Myles

A guy went up to the mike and said that his father was a drunk and an abusive father. He went into some very specific stories of abuse that had left the son thinking he was weak and worthless.

...

He suggested that his father "John" is the only person in the whole world that is qualified to be "John". ...

However, since "John" is the only person qualified in the world to be "John". He was being himself... perfectly. That made his father perfect at being his father.
...
That way of explaining it, took what had happened to the son and separated it from the son's perception of himself.

Then the son started to cry saying, "what my father did to me is just what he did and it does not mean that I am weak and worthless."

Then, after all of this, the son looked over to the left side of the auditorium and said, "I forgive you dad."

The room went silent as his father and the guy's mother both walked up to the stage and hugged their son.

...Absolutely remarkable!

No, no, no Myles, sorry. This is ABSOLUTE CRAP!

When I hear this type of story, it looks to me as if this view about life could only have been orchestrated by a child abuser who cannot take responsibility for his own acts of deviance.

Just suppose for a moment that this guy (this VICTIM) is a teenager still living with his father John with a history of child abuse (past, present and future). And suppose this guy was taking the Forum for Teens. Then the message would be "kid, take responsibility for being abused" and "forgive your father", "give him a big hug" and "your daddy is perfect the way he is". Now, would that stop the child being abused by the father??? Don't you see that this orchestrated big show is just pile of garbage? In my country, we put these fathers in jail and we make sure the child is protected against further abuse.

The same applies for a 6yo raped by her father. Should she take responsibility for being raped, forgive her father and give him a big hug and say "daddy, I forgive you and I love you even if you are raping me as I speak or if you raped me in the past" or say "daddy, I take full responsibility for being raped because I'm the one who enticed you and I'm the one who wanted to explore my sexuality" (this argument about a 6yo abused child is actually documented black on white in a book published by a Landmark graduate named Madeleine Houle)???

I agree that after 10-20 years, an adult should be able to move on with his life understanding the HE IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HAVING BEEN ABUSED AS A CHILD, but to say DADDY IS PERFECT the way he is as an ABUSER is, well ..., I could say this is an ABSOLUTE and REMARKABLE pile of CRAP!

Landmark/EST is really pure nonsense and loaded with crap! The way these kids are asked to seperate themselves from their feelings about being abused and the reality of being abused is an invitation to more deviant act by the abuser. I doubt this is the right attitude to instill in a child's head.

Myles,

I didn't get much sleep last night. Your posts are disturbing. I can see myself in them. I can see thousands of other people whom I've known in them. You've gotten a lot of other good input; I hope you'll consider it all.

There are a few thoughts that have become my favorites in recent years:

* Things aren't always what they seem.
* All the glitters isn't gold.
* Think for yourself.

From what you've said, you're just looking at the appealing parts of the Forum. There are appealing parts, but there's a lot more to it. Look at the total picture. There's more bad than good, although I know you don't see that right now. They told you "not to believe anything they said", "just try this on." Take them up on it!

Your realization about your relationship with your sister was certainly an appealing outcome. But, tell the truth, aren't your sister and the other members of your family, not to mention everyone else you know, now [b:61f7541fc2]enrollment targets[/b:61f7541fc2] first and people you love second? Aren't the two collapsed? If you use this experience to "get" other people to do the Forum, you'll be exploiting the experience, and it'll be skewed. It will no longer be about re-opening your relationship with your sister, it will be about getting your sister to do the Forum.

Your "share" about the man who forgave his abusive father others have commented on. In the isolated environment of the Forum, it sure seemed wonderful to have the son forgive and embrace his abusive father. But I've never seen one of these cases work out in real life. For one thing, it makes abuse okay, and it isn't. Over and over again I've seen domestic abusers and pedophiles hide in Landmark's "there are no victims" asylum. For another, the man who forgave his father will discover that his father is still abusive, nothing's changed. Abuse issues take a lot of work to resolve. They aren't something that can just be "transformed."

Back to the rest of the Forum, the part you don't seem to be looking at. It takes a lot. It takes people years. Right now you're caught up in the euphoria. A friend of mine calls it a gang-bang experience. That's the carrot on the end of the stick. The only way Landmark "works" in the long run is if people just keep going for the carrot, and ignore or suppress everything else. And there's a lot.

Landmark's one-size-fits-all approach relies on oversimplifying things, of making them black-and-white. For instance, you were told "your life (before the Forum) doesn't work." Is that true? Or, were there some aspects of your life that did work, some that needed some improvement, and some that didn't work? You need to sort through absolutely everything in the Forum that way. Look for the truth. There's some truth in it, but Landmark leaves a lot out and adds a lot on.

One of Landmark's tactics to get you to accept their "distinctions" and teachings is to begin with some things that are true, then throw in everything but the kitchen sink. You didn't have time to think about it. You probably got to the point you wished people would stop asking questions so you could get to the next break. There are things that, when I tell people about them now, I'm just amazed I ever fell for them. I have to say "honest, it seemed perfectly logical at the time."

The way back is a long one, much longer than the three days it took to get there. But, you can't [b:61f7541fc2]be yourself [/b:61f7541fc2]if all you're doing is spouting Landmark jargon and ideas, thinking the same way all the other Forumers think, valuing the same things all the other Forumers value, if you're just like every other Forumer. It's profoundly sad to me that so many people [b:61f7541fc2]lose themselves [/b:61f7541fc2]in Landmark.

If doing the Forum woke you up to personal development, that's a good thing. There are now two roads you can take. You can keep doing Landmark seminars and "developing" yourself their one-size-fits-all way, or you can take your own personal path, thinking for yourself, trying out a number of different approaches and ideas, sorting through things for yourself, finding your own way. It's a life-long journey and a very satisfying one. Don't worry about "what if I miss something Landmark has to offer." They have no secret knowledge. There isn't anything of value you can't find elsewhere, without all the strings attached.

estie

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estie

* Things aren't always what they seem.

Your "share" about the man who forgave his abusive father others have commented on.

Perhaps we should mention that many of these remarkable moments are setups, orchestrated to get people emotionally involved. This "amazing" (disturbing, if you ask me) outcome could very well be a big fat choreographed lie.

Glam

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glam
Perhaps we should mention that many of these remarkable moments are setups, orchestrated to get people emotionally involved. This "amazing" (disturbing, if you ask me) outcome could very well be a big fat choreographed lie.

Yeah, that discovery about the way they do things floored me too, when I found out about it... they have no problems using plants... when I first experienced it I thought, My God, what incredible authentic human revelation... guess my street smarts weren't as finely tuned... their stories were... too good... too perfect... too melodromatic... the Erhardians love [b:2753796ab3] melodrama [/b:2753796ab3] ... big heaping loads of melodrama, more melodrama than watching the soaps... and they love to make a big show of their [b:2753796ab3] sincere curiosity [/b:2753796ab3] about where you're coming from.... until you find out they really couldn't care less what you think... c'mon, get real, listen to their own words, as in [b:2753796ab3] your opinions are meaningless, your life is meaningless !!!! [[/b:2753796ab3] ....