Quote

I've experienced being humiliated in front of 200 people by the leader in the advanced course for even hinting on that Landmark might be a scam.

Thank you for your post! I signed up for the Advanced Course for September 2006. Can you expand on this for me?

What do you mean by "hinting that it might be a scam"?
How do you define "scam" and what did you say?

Quote

the leader blasted her for "making him wrong" and running a "poor victim whose daddy doesn't lover her" racket.

Thank you for sharing that story. This reminds me of something remarkable that I saw in my forum.

A guy went up to the mike and said that his father was a drunk and an abusive father. He went into some very specific stories of abuse that had left the son thinking he was weak and worthless.

The leader said that impression of his father was a "racket". Well, the son could not see that. Neither could I. The father was obviously a drunk who abused his family... that's what I saw too. I felt like punching the leader in the nose for making this the son's responsibility. Just to look at the son, you saw someone that thought he was weak and worthless. You could see it.

This conversation went back and forth for about an hour until the leader explained the racket conversation another way.

He suggested that his father "John" is the only person in the whole world that is qualified to be "John". Then the leader agreed that what the father had done was terrible and no one will ever be likely to condone what he had done to his son and wife.

However, since "John" is the only person qualified in the world to be "John". He was being himself... perfectly. That made his father perfect at being his father.

I had never heard anything quite like that before. So, his father was perfect at being the abusive person that he was being. That way of explaining it, took what had happened to the son and separated it from the son's perception of himself.

Then the son started to cry saying, "what my father did to me is just what he did and it does not mean that I am weak and worthless."

Then, after all of this, the son looked over to the left side of the auditorium and said, "I forgive you dad."

The room went silent as his father and the guy's mother both walked up to the stage and hugged their son.

It was really just like that. The leader was VERY persistent to the point of making me uncomfortable for this guy. In the end he had separated what had happened to him away from what he had made the abuse mean about himself. Absolutely remarkable!

Stay tuned Myles, I'll be giving you a big post RE the advanced course when I next get in front of a PC, it's too long of a "story" to get into right now, I'll be up all night! I'll be out of town for the next few days, but I'll give you a response when I get back.

Quote
Myles
[I want to get an idea of how your opinion was formed and is it tested.

For example: I can read about sex and I can watch a movie about sex. That would be knowledge. It is absolutely possible to form an opinion for myself from having studied those resources. However, once I had experienced sex; I had a much deeper foundation from which to form my own opinion. When you add knowledge together with experience, the opinion has been tested.

Is your opinion is based on knowledge, on experience, or based on both?

I can read about cults and I can watch movies (documentaries) about cults and talk with expert about cults. That is knowledge. If I experience a cult, I become a victim of deception and without knowledge. Your mind sucking trick is not working here. It is clear that you are a Landmark zealot who wants to "share your new possibilities" with us, but we are not dupe. And if you want to insist that I am running a racket, I couldn't care less. This means you are being cultish, which confirms my knowledge. Do you get it? I've been through all of this with my ex who was a Landmark advanced graduate, introduction leader and seminar leader.

So in a sense, I am talking with knowledge and experience resisting a subtle enrolling racket from a personal coach that was using all the tricks she had learned (reciprocity, consistency, liking, authority, but most of all deception and lying).

Quote

Is this the new soft technique developed by Landmark to enroll people pretending this is not enrolling? The same old song of deception again and again.

Is it the enrolling that makes Landmark suspect? Can you expand on that comment about deception?

The enrolling segment of the course seemed like an infomercial and they separated “sharing” from “inviting”.

Our “homework” was to tell people about our breakthroughs. I would have told people about my sister anyway… even without the homework.

The leader also encouraged us to invite people we know to come to an introduction class. The leader said that is how Landmark makes money. I own a business and it makes sense. The money is about the same as going to a Sox game and what I got was well worth the experience. I would recommend it if someone asked me about it, or if someone tells me they are stuck in life.

Can you explain what it is about the “word of mouth” approach that is suspicious for you?

Quote

It is clear that you are a Landmark zealot who wants to "share your new possibilities" with us, but we are not dupe. And if you want to insist that I am running a racket, I couldn't care less. This means you are being cultish, which confirms my knowledge. Do you get it?

Yes. I definitely took the course and yes I got something very specific and important (to me) out of it. I had a positive reaction to the experience, but upon finding this site, I would like to test the opinion I have formed.

You said "cultish". I think of cults as being religion-like. I didn't see that religion was ever included at Landmark. The absence of religion did not seem to matter either.

What makes Landmark look like a cult for you?

Quote
Myles

Quote

It is clear that you are a Landmark zealot who wants to "share your new possibilities" with us, but we are not dupe. And if you want to insist that I am running a racket, I couldn't care less. This means you are being cultish, which confirms my knowledge. Do you get it?

Yes. I definitely took the course and yes I got something very specific and important (to me) out of it. I had a positive reaction to the experience, but upon finding this site, I would like to test the opinion I have formed.

You said "cultish". I think of cults as being religion-like. I didn't see that religion was ever included at Landmark. The absence of religion did not seem to matter either.

What makes Landmark look like a cult for you?

Is it a cult, is it not? The eternal question. That makes it a cult. Got it? Simple closed system of logic. It doesn't have to be a declared religion to be a cult. You want to cast doubt in my mind? That's cultish. Another paradox. That's cultish too. Got it? There is no ending to this argumentation and this is how Landmark/EST was designed to be. An enigma with no way out. And that's definitely cultish.

Myles,

I was aggressively recruited (red flag at the time) by a spin-off of Lifespring. I spent six years believing in it. I've been out of it five years. While I could write a book about my experience and what I am still learning, I have just a few things to say to you.

First, LGATs are NOT what they appear to be. You are truly inside an intentionally fabricated illusion, [i:a0ca0fee5f]and I know that it does not seem to be so[/i:a0ca0fee5f]. Such is the masterful trickery. I was inside for six years. I know what it's like inside. I dismissed many questions I had. When I saw illogic and contradiction (and LGATs are characterized by these), I looked the other way. I was trained to believe and defer, unbeknownst to me.

Second, read, read, read about mind control and LGATs. The technology that LGATs employ to make you think you're thinking on your own is very sophisticated. Just educate yourself extensively and don't give up critical thinking for the promise of enlightenment.


skeptic

The great looming [i:43ea59433d] canard [/i:43ea59433d] is whether an organization is a religion or not, and how this explicit religiosity or lack of it is essential for cultness. One could spend ages going round in circles on the religion question. The are businesses that have cult aspects, military organizations that have cult aspects, even strange social phenomena like the child beauty pagent world may have [i:43ea59433d] aspects [/i:43ea59433d] of cultness. As I have thought about this, one signal feature stands out for abusive cult status, [b:43ea59433d] the exploitation of labor [/b:43ea59433d] ... always for a higher cause and all that... the nation of France figured out this angle pretty neatly and invited Landmark to close their operations within France on the basis of uncompensated labor. I have also noticed that cults that do exploit labor make a big deal that labor in the service of the cult has to be an expression of extrordinary commitment to the cult... in other words, they don't want any old labor, they want hard core, work your ass to the bone labor as [i:43ea59433d] evidence [/i:43ea59433d] of your devotion tot their ideals.... nice little thing they've got going...

"In France, Landmark Education 'assistants' have the apparent French legal status of volunteer unpaid workers. On May 24, 2004, the France 3 show "Pièces à conviction" broadcast the investigative report "Voyage au pays des nouveaux gourous" ("Voyage to the land of the new gurus"). The next month, in June 2004, the French government (L’Inspection du Travail) investigated labor practices regarding "volunteer workers." [b:43ea59433d] Shortly thereafter, Landmark Education ended operations in France. " [/b:43ea59433d]

Couldn't take the heat of public scrutiny, I suppose.

Quote
Myles

Quote

Not to mention that he left "did you do est?" out. <sniff, sniff> We just don't get no respect no more.

I meant no disrespect. What is "est" and how is "est" related to this topic?

???!!!

You don't know about the Landmark/EST connection ??? And you say you have knowledge??? That's nonsense. Educate yourself!

EST : Erhard Seminar Training. Werner Erhard to be more precise, aka Jack Rosenberg, the ex-Scientologist (OT-5) and old car salesman. An expert con-artist, that's what he was to me. EST technology (sic!) was transfered to his brother and renamed Landmark Education. Not a landmark and nothing to do with education. Just a deceptive name.

Miles, WAKE UP!