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Bird
Hi
I'm new here. My best friend asked me if I had ever heard of this thing called the Landmark Forum.
...
Should I be concerned about my friend? Is there potential that she will truly benefit from this "class"?

It all depends on your tolerance to risk. I asked the same question to a friend of mine who is a psychologist and in her opinion, the LF and similar groups (because of the paradoxical logic and intense psychological pressure they impose on the participants) can lead to minor psychotic episodes (this is also well documented in the scientific litterature). Now, is this really dangerous? Well, compared to other serious mental disorder people may have without Landmark's help, it's probably not. To the eyes of expert health care workers, there are much more serious things to be worried about in their everyday practice than LGATs and cults. It's like asking a doctor working in an emergency department if one should be worried about insomnia. As long as it doesn't drives you so sick so as to require an emergency hospitalization in his unit, he will probably say it's not a serious problem. Now, is insomnia good? Of course not. Is it dangerous? It all depends on how it's being handled and what other problems might emerge from it (anxiety, depression, suicidal ideas, psychosis,...).

Now, is Landmark deceptive and in the business of turning participants into deployable agents and of controlling them using their emotional weaknesses, the answer is definitely YES.

About being a cult, this proposition is being ridiculed right from the beginning during the seminars with the seminar leader shouting out loud "Some people say we are a cult!". People look around and start laughing and everyone thinks "Of course WE are not a cult. It's ridicule to think like that!". But of course this is VERY manipulative on the part of the forum leader. He tries to defuse the idea by exposing it in such a blatant way that everybody will say that this is not the truth and that landmark is not a cult.

But in reality, the situation is more complex than this. Among the group that participates to the forum, there are newcomers (those who are being targeted and new to the forum), graduates who are helping with setting up the evening (volunteers), advanced graduates (who are extremely motivated to recruit more and more), the center managers (who are in the business of recruiting members) and the forum leader (the ultimate success story or grand guru). In my opinion, the "cult" includes the last three subgroups of people (advanced graduates, managers and leader) plus the people at the head office in California. The graduates (volunteers) will become full blown cult members (without them even really noticing how powerful the influence of Landmark is in controlling every aspects of their lives) if they continue to participate and to be "coached" (on almost a daily basis!) by the advanced graduates and others. Of course, some will leave before they become addicted (cult member), and some will leave even after having been under the complete influence of the cult. But the cult continues to grow, slowly, subtly and deceptively in all the spheres of our society. Is that dangerous? We're back to the beginning.

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kind of "inauthentic" of them don't you think?

What do you immediately think when someone begins a conversation by [i:1d693edf11] defending their frame [/i:1d693edf11] ?

They appear defensive, right ?

Don't you then, as a matter or normal curiosity, ask yourself [i:1d693edf11] " what do they have to be so defensive about " ? ... [/i:1d693edf11]

If they are so confident in their purpose, so aligned with their integrity, so universally respected, so powerfully transformative, [i:1d693edf11] what needs defending ? [/i:1d693edf11]

Does an honest person normally walk up to you and start telling you how honest they are ? Does an honest person begin with, "Some people have been questioning my honesty ! Isn't that hilarious ! ... and by the way... a bunch of my pals will vouch for my honesty..."

Makes no sense, does it ?

Unless it makes another kind of sense...

[b:039f83b60c] This puts the cherry on top [/b:039f83b60c]

the Scoop's FAQ has a way of talking down to its' readers like they have the mental capacity of junior high school students..... what is frightening about this is the adolescent mentality of the author... file under : Dumb and Dumber-you have got to be kidding.

I say there Holmes ! Egad ! What makes these people tick ? (hint : they're talking about us )......

[b:039f83b60c] "There's something about reading stuff in textual form -- it makes it seem more legitimate or something " [/b:039f83b60c]


"What about all the negative stuff I read on the Internet about Landmark Education?

Everybody has an opinion on the Internet. In fact, most of what you read on the Internet is someone's opinion. There's something about reading stuff in textual form -- it makes it seem more legitimate or something. So to not be taken in by whatever it is you're reading, you might want to think about what you're reading and ask yourself who wrote it, why did they write it, and what are they saying or not saying about it or themselves. You know, read between the lines. People have a right to their opinions, but it is up to you to sift the facts from the opinions. I recommend looking for firsthand experiences of people who actually have participated in the Landmark Forum, not the opinion of someone who went to an introductory evening, or knows someone who knows someone, etc. etc.

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So to not be taken in by whatever it is you're reading, you might want to think about what you're reading and ask yourself who wrote it, why did they write it, and what are they saying or not saying about it or themselves. You know, read between the lines.

So let's apply to them what they say others should do (another "racket" of mine):

Question 1: Let's ask ourself who wrote it. Well, without my friendly cookie manager policing my privacy, I would not have known about the [i:3f77e68791]covert [/i:3f77e68791]link to LEC. So who IS writing this:

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Welcome! We did the Landmark Forum and loved it!

And who is We? Can't seem to tell. The only suggestion is on the "Email your experiences" page, with a link to a "karl." They aren't very forward in saying who We is. So, if it is so great, once again it's obvious to ask, why don't they step forward and identify themselves -- they have no problem identifying [i:3f77e68791]others [/i:3f77e68791]afterall. Why the cookie for LEC? Well, it seems that it takes cookie manager to peer behind the curtain and see that [i:3f77e68791]there is no We[/i:3f77e68791]. The data I have suggests to me it's LEC. (Hey, it even rhymes!)

Question 2: why did they write it? If it is LEC afterall, two words: Spin control. Contol the conversation. Other posts and threads here have shown that control and power are at the center of what goes on -- not enlightenment. Politicians know that he who frames the conversation and the other person controls the conversation. Frame all talk as "opinion" (perception - interpretation) and therefore not to be taken seriously. Use anecdotal evidence, not objective, peer reviewed (i.e. criticised) studies. Focus on "experience," afterall how could you know unless you've done it yourself? And experience can't be "made wrong!" The rest of us are helpless in our decent into powerless opinion. Thus the only valid source of commentary on Landmark is, well, Landmark. Further, it seems that once within the LGAT grasp, perception and interpretation (opinion) become untouchable truth. Let's have it both ways, shall we? Spin as needed.

Question 3: what are they saying or not saying about it themselves. Hmm. "They" aren't saying WHO THEY ARE. Doesn't that say a lot? They can't admit to their own defensiveness. They won't own up to their own frame management. It is what they are NOT saying that says the most.

OK. I've read between the lines.

Thanks "karl", you've helped me a great deal. I won't be taken in by someone who won't just not identify themself, but frankly deceives me about who they are, won't be taken in by someone who disempowers the knowledge, research and perceptions of others, and won't be taken in by someone who won't disclose.

You've just steered me away. Thanks!

-lightwolf

For the sake of my friend, I have been desperately trying to see a postitive side to this. I am just so shocked that she would have been taken in by this, something that just reeks of BS to me right from the get-go! And I knew that before I even found this website! What makes some people able to see them for what they are, yet others buy it hook, line and sinker?? Critical thinking? Skepticism? She is the only person I know that's into this so I have no basis for comparison of the types of people that buy into it.

So how/why did you guys find this forum and how do you know about this?

Coercive persuasion seems to be the process for many mass marathon training seminars like Landmark.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Also see [www.culteducation.com]

To better understand the process of mass marathon training and the problems such seminars or weekends typically present.

See [www.culteducation.com]

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Bird
So how/why did you guys find this forum and how do you know about this?

I found it by searching for "Landmark" and "cult" in a search engine. Why? Read my very first post. Like you, I had someone in my life who got involved in Landmark, was concerned because of the changes I saw, and needed to know more and understand what to do.

As to how we know about this, I'm guessing you're asking how we know about Landmark's processes, it's dangers, i.e. how do we know what we know about Landmark. For me, it's a combination of learning from the articules on this site, learning from those who were involved in an LGAT and got out (see posts from nettie, sonnie dee, Dynamix, and skeptic among others). These are invaluable because of the "inside" information they can provide, and the before/after perspective they can provide. Also reading other material such as Steven Hassan's [i:bb2b7f7b0f]Releasing The Bonds.[/i:bb2b7f7b0f]

What was really convincing for me, however, was comparing what I was learning to what I was seeing in the life of my friend. I saw what all these things said I would see. This validated the source as reliable. It is important to take an LGAT, which likes to live in mystery and questioning the status quo, into the light of objective review and [i:bb2b7f7b0f]question them[/i:bb2b7f7b0f]. They don't stand up well to the process of doing to them what they ask their "students" to do -- question. Deconstruct their teaching, dig into their history, investigate their business practices. Learn from the expeience of others. Question everything.

-lightwolf

I had done about everything the old EST organization had available, as well as everything Fernando Flores (who was marketed through the same distribution network as the EST based programs) had, and subsidiary things nobody would believe now, like an EST related Dress For Success seminar (yeah, really.... they had that).

During the mid 1980's.... EST was ubiquitous and far more public than the current low key, under the radar Landmark is today. However, when I interact with Landmarkians tody, I never explain my EST past, nor do I have any energy one way or the other vis a vis Landmark. This is primarily because I want to hear what they say or do without any possible inflections from my [i:9d39583ab0] assessment [/i:9d39583ab0] of the situation.

Surprisingly, much of the standard Landmark installed thinking, their metaphors, their homiletic wisdoms, their general attitude is almost exactly templated off the old EST .... in spite of what they will protest as a clean break between EST and Landmark.

To their credit, they have gotten rid of some of their most repellent stylistic touches... such as this strange tonal thing they used to do where they put a singsongy upward lilt at the end of every staement they made... old time ESTies will remember that wacky speech affectation, sort of like the royal lisp that Castillian Spanish speakers took on because a prince had a speech defect .... well, thank goodness we don't have to endure that decorative fillip any more...

More than aggravating to my mind, downright unnerving, was my gut feeling as I watched how easily a roomful of people gladly, almost eagerly submitted to illogical authority [i:9d39583ab0] when cleverly framed just so [/i:9d39583ab0] ... was this proto-fascist mentality that seemed to me the real animating force ... that the EST "conversation" had a dual nature, it was both "in the listening of possibility" [i:9d39583ab0] and [/i:9d39583ab0] "in the listening of uncritical obedience" ..... it took no genius to see that there is but a short step from [i:9d39583ab0] complacently uncritical [/i:9d39583ab0] to [i:9d39583ab0] arrogantly anti-critical [/i:9d39583ab0] which is the core attitude of bald faced fascism, the police state, the Inquisition....

I never said, nor do I believe that EST or Landmark crossed the line from the preconditions of the fascst society to the outright endorsement of fascism .... because for this to happen many other social forces must be in place, far above and beyond they scope of any LGAT ... and modern Western culture is an elastic, adaptive, and materially comfortable environment where rigid absolutist philosophies and social movements can't get too much traction.

On the other hand, I was disturbed, to say the least, by the implications of what I saw, and I began looking around to see if anyone else noticed similar problematic features of these "socially advanced" organizations ....

After some thorough searching, this website emerged as tho one place where one could "be in the unvarnished listening" of "what is so".

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For the sake of my friend, I have been desperately trying to see a postitive side to this. I am just so shocked that she would have been taken in by this, something that just reeks of BS to me right from the get-go! And I knew that before I even found this website! What makes some people able to see them for what they are, yet others buy it hook, line and sinker?? Critical thinking? Skepticism? She is the only person I know that's into this so I have no basis for comparison of the types of people that buy into it.

I am a general manager of a wholesale supply and a small business owner who runs a computer repair service. My IQ has been measured at 148. I studied Logic in college and was mentored in critical thinking. My educational background is classical and my worldview is rounded by continual study. I FELL FOR THIS tripe lock, stock and barrel.

Intellectuals might just be more willing to wait for the final clarification, the final argument, the last word. I don't know. You ask what makes people buy into Landmark and other LGATs. Perhaps my recent experience could help you in understanding.

Obviously, since I am involved in two businesses I am under stress. A good friend of mine told me of the Cannon Training seminars in San Diego. [You can read my post in this forum about that, 'Cannon Training...Lankmark Lite?] He said that the seminar would 'empower' me to reach my 'goals.' Being busy, I ignored him for months. He kept the pressure on.

With the economy doing a stutter-step and rising prices came greater pressure to make the money necessary to live in San Diego county. Feeling the weight of the stress I decided to take Fran Cannon's "Great American Business Owner Seminar." Supposedly I would learn ways to 'leverage' my time, be on 'purpose,' set my 'goals' and be 'successful.' There would be a 'support circle' too. I had already seen my friend at a 'formal' graduation where everyone was looking and talking 'success.' I bit in to the hook partly for these reasons:

[list:234768bd69]
[i:234768bd69]The idea of a 'support circle'[/i:234768bd69]
[i:234768bd69]Seeing the 'graduated' looking so successful[/i:234768bd69]
[i:234768bd69]I thought I needed to 'Leverage' my time [/i:234768bd69]
[i:234768bd69]Success seemed so far away[/i:234768bd69]
[i:234768bd69]My friend kept saying how much more time he had[/i:234768bd69]
[i:234768bd69]Fighting to take my life 'to the next level' made sense[/i:234768bd69]
[i:234768bd69]My friend repeatedly told me "you only need a few tools to be a success"[/i:234768bd69]
[/list:u:234768bd69]

During the 3 day seminar I was told over and over that by sticking with the program I would be a success. Successful people stuck with the program.

My wife, bless her heart, is the leader of our emotional life. She wanted to bolt fromt the program the first night. I talked her out of it. Fran Cannon had infected me with the "I can't do it alone" bug.

Much of what was programed into us was about personal change. This was supposed to be a business seminar. Fran Cannon said we needed to get through personal issues before we could concentrate on business. In my opinion looking back we were railroaded into areas that had no business connection whatsoever. We were told that we would understand later, the breakthrough would come. Stick with it. It's just another way of saying put your rational mind on hold. We spent a whole lot of time coming up with our "life's purpose." It's hard to recall how long we spent but my purpose was: "to empower others to achieve through my intuition and powers of persuasion." What the H%ll does that have to do with business?

The point is that I kept looking for the rational answer just around the corner. It never came.

At one of the weekly "success meetings" an attendee complained that the parties and the formal (expensive dress up) had nothing to do with business. He was sharply criticized for this comment. Of course, parties are business. Connecting with people is business. Putting seminar logos on shirts is business. Doing "personal work" is business. Everything is business and the seminar is ALL about business no matter what is said.

I suggested to Mr. Cannon, in a private letter, that he teach how to conduct mastermind groups using Robert's Rules of Order and help people build a business plan with Bizplan instead of having parties. He used his MBA in negotiation skills to bring this to the group I am told. The parties are still on but they are loosely discussing mastermind groups. One of the attendees left a message on my cell phone that included, "it's feels so good to have a support group around me..." This person is a self-made success in business already with a thriving business!

Remember, you can't do it alone. You need a support circle! H%ll, I haven't felt that way since I joined a Pentacostal Church when I was 13! There was this pretty girl you see and I wanted to date her...

I am already married to the prettiest girl in the world, what do I need a seminar for?

Really.

CN

From The Who, We won't get fooled again... "For I know that the hypnotized never lie..."