Hello,
Thank you for this site.

South Africa has a set of trainings called Quest, Inquest and Conquest, which sound equivalent to Landmark, Impact, Lifespring etc. They are run by Wendy and Buster Sefor.

Does anyone have specific information about these trainings, or have you had negative effects from the training?

I did Quest and Inquest a few years ago and had a psychotic break afterwards. I have also had severe anxiety and nightmares in the years since.

I don't want to blame Quest for what happened but the information on this site is really quite shocking.

Here is a general information link about "mass marathon training."

See [www.culteducation.com]

Quest is definitiely an lgat.

Other lgats operating in South Africa are Insight, Harlequin, and Landmark Forum.

Here is a link to a skeptical article about the trainings: [www.harmoniousliving.co.za] - very interesting because the site promotes wicca and the secret.

Wendy and Buster were trained by Pat Grove. Here is a link to his website:
[www.patgrove.com]

Some excerpts from the page:

"Pat Grove

The International Magician of Transformation

Pat Grove is a South African. He is also an internationally recognised consultant, author, lecturer and authority on Ontological Coaching. Over the past 30 years he has trained a number of trainers, Baruch Banai, Yiftach Sagiv, Tony Wiseman, Buster and Wendy Sefor, Steven Norvell, Phil Smith, Chris Nevill and Israel Bercowitz that use his work in countries such as Israel, Australia, South Africa, Ireland, Guernsey, England, Austria, Turkey and Holland.

Clients enjoying the benefit of his programs and send candidates to participate on his trainings are, amongst others, Mars Confectionery, El Al Airlines, Barclays Bowring, Kodak, Northern Ireland Electricity, various Kibutzes, Manpower, Revlon, Professional People Development, Basic Management Consultants, Central Insurance, Ninham Shand, ABSA, Brilliant Accounting, IQ Health, Globalbond (USA), Strauss Confectionary, Neil Muller Construction, Premier Growth Group, Prismasds - Turkey and MTO Forrestry (Pty) Ltd plusmany more.

He has personally trained four hundred school children aged 6-12 years, thousands of teenagers, many thousands of relationships and over 60 000 people on business and leadership related training.

Together with his present and past trainers the organization has trained over 650,000 people. He has worked with Social and Psychological institutes and is the founder of Roans International, a social and charitable organisation assisting youngsters in education. He is the founder of Individual Achievement and Motivation, an organisation that has trained many thousands of sales people and The Grove Leadership Center Ltd, a management-consulting firm, based in Israel with affiliated companies world-wide. He is the only South African, besides Jan Smuts, to have his name entered in the Golden Book of Israel for services to that nation. He has a plantation of trees named after him in Jerusalem.

Pat has a number of articles published about him in many well-known magazines such as Newsweek, Highveld 17, The Sunday Times, Cape Argus, Daily News, The Star and Cape Town University Business Review and is also the subject of many newspaper, radio and television articles. He was recently the guest in Boardroom Dancing and because of the quality he brought to this episode it has been screened a number of times. His work has been the source of many theses for Masters and Doctorate Degrees and was recently described in detail on the Oprah Winfrey Show.

Mr. Grove now specialises in working with Chief Executive Officers and senior management to invent and plan 'the impossible'. He also lectures to business, public and private audiences worldwide on personal, social and organisational transformation.

Pat is the author of "Here is where you are", "I am complete", "Coach - The new leader", "Of Mice Management" and soon to be released "The Spirit of Coaching - Coaching to the human soul.".
He publishes a monthly newsletter, Distinctions, distributed through the Internet to nearly16000 Achievers, Entrepreneurs, and Leaders in 39 countries. He has over 30 articles published on Personal, Social and Organizational Transformation. "

Just adding this info in case anyone else is interested:

Wendy and Buster were trained by Pat Grove, who runs Insight.
Pat Grove has his claws well into the corporate world. An excerpt from his website:


**
Pat Grove is a South African. He is also an internationally recognised consultant, author, lecturer and authority on Ontological Coaching. Over the past 30 years he has trained a number of trainers, Baruch Banai, Yiftach Sagiv, Tony Wiseman, Buster and Wendy Sefor, Steven Norvell, Phil Smith, Chris Nevill and Israel Bercowitz that use his work in countries such as Israel, Australia, South Africa, Ireland, Guernsey, England, Austria, Turkey and Holland.

Clients enjoying the benefit of his programs and send candidates to participate on his trainings are, amongst others, Mars Confectionery, El Al Airlines, Barclays Bowring, Kodak, Northern Ireland Electricity, various Kibutzes, Manpower, Revlon, Professional People Development, Basic Management Consultants, Central Insurance, Ninham Shand, ABSA, Brilliant Accounting, IQ Health, Globalbond (USA), Strauss Confectionary, Neil Muller Construction, Premier Growth Group, Prismasds - Turkey and MTO Forrestry (Pty) Ltd plusmany more.

He has personally trained four hundred school children aged 6-12 years, thousands of teenagers, many thousands of relationships and over 60 000 people on business and leadership related training.

**


The only other reference to Quest, Wendy or Buster that I can find is mildly skeptical article at an alternative lifestyle magazine site. Here is the link:

[www.harmoniousliving.co.za]

The author encourages people to do the training and participate fully, but take everything with a pinch of salt. This is bad advice. Once you are in the controlled environment and are being psychologically manipulated and assaulted it is not possible to take anything with a 'pinch of salt'. It sounds like the author has rationally dismissed the training but has been manipulated enough to continue to recommend it.

.... about the duplicate message... thought the first one didn't make it

On the quest trainings there was a clear distinction (and hence double-bind and extra confusion) between the basic and advanced. On the basic the emphasis was on 'everyone creates their own reality' so you are not responsible for other people. If they don't like something you say or do, its 'their sh*t" and "nothing to do with you". This was relatively harmless except that it made a lot of people bad mannered and uncompassionate.

On the 'advanced' inquest training the emphasis is on 'you create your own reality' and 'everything is about you' - so if people don't like something you say or do then you're supposed to ask why or how you created that circumustance of people having a negative response to you. That is not too bad, but they take it even further.

They make a lot of cryptic comments about 'the energies' and how the energy you put out creates the world, so if there is poverty, crime, disease in the world then you created it. Added to that they create the impression that they can 'know' things about you by 'reading' your energy (all done very subtly, not in a way you can rationally and consciously deal with). And... just by thinking a thought or having a feeling you are putting things out into 'the universe' and 'creating reality'... also whatever happens in the training room gets reflected back into the outside world. Not just reflected in your life, but in the world. For example, if someone confesses to lying during the training and there is a case in the media of politicians telling lies (everyday occurrence of course) then this is interpreted as the person who owned up to lying has shifted the energies in the outside world.

My 'experience' (I hate that word) with all this was that my rational mind rejected everything but my feelings were more vulnerable to the abuse that is hurled at you while this is all going on, and the two couldn't live with each other. I think that is what is supposed to cause what the landmark people call a 'breakthrough' - you just can't handle the contradiction so your mind shuts down, you go into shock, and you have a whole lot of chemical reactions in your brain that make you very vulneralbe to suggestion. (like the suggestion to bring everybody you love onto the training).

So.. I've seen a few messages about the trainings turning people into sociopaths (no compassion or responsibility for anything) but there is the other extreme of too much compassion and responsibility and a broken reality where you feel you've caused every problem on earth and are just waiting for all the 'universal laws' to kick into action - and you have to monitor your thoughts so as not to cause any damage in the world. I think that is the reaction that causes psychosis i.e. being out of touch with reality. Part of reality is cause and effect, when that is destroyed in your mind and you are lead to believe that you are 'the source' of everything - well, that's just not reality.

No offense to all the people who didn't make it to a psych ward - but for those who did, I think its the ones who resist the most and refuse to 'get out of their heads' that end up there - and that's a good thing, in a way. :) I'm pretty ashamed of the small amount of recruiting and assisting I did; I'm glad I spent more time in hospital than dragging more people into this mess.



On the quest trainings there was a clear distinction (and hence double-bind and extra confusion) between the basic and advanced. On the basic the emphasis was on 'everyone creates their own reality' so you are not responsible for other people. If they don't like something you say or do, its 'their sh*t" and "nothing to do with you". This was relatively harmless except that it made a lot of people bad mannered and uncompassionate.

On the 'advanced' inquest training the emphasis is on 'you create your own reality' and 'everything is about you' - so if people don't like something you say or do then you're supposed to ask why or how you created that circumustance of people having a negative response to you. That is not too bad, but they take it even further.

They make a lot of cryptic comments about 'the energies' and how the energy you put out creates the world, so if there is poverty, crime, disease in the world then you created it. Added to that they create the impression that they can 'know' things about you by 'reading' your energy (all done very subtly, not in a way you can rationally and consciously deal with). And... just by thinking a thought or having a feeling you are putting things out into 'the universe' and 'creating reality'... also whatever happens in the training room gets reflected back into the outside world. Not just reflected in your life, but in the world. For example, if someone confesses to lying during the training and there is a case in the media of politicians telling lies (everyday occurrence of course) then this is interpreted as the person who owned up to lying has shifted the energies in the outside world.

My 'experience' (I hate that word) with all this was that my rational mind rejected everything but my feelings were more vulnerable to the abuse that is hurled at you while this is all going on, and the two couldn't live with each other. I think that is what is supposed to cause what the landmark people call a 'breakthrough' - you just can't handle the contradiction so your mind shuts down, you go into shock, and you have a whole lot of chemical reactions in your brain that make you very vulneralbe to suggestion. (like the suggestion to bring everybody you love onto the training).

So.. I've seen a few messages about the trainings turning people into sociopaths (no compassion or responsibility for anything) but there is the other extreme of too much compassion and responsibility and a broken reality where you feel you've caused every problem on earth and are just waiting for all the 'universal laws' to kick into action - and you have to monitor your thoughts so as not to cause any damage in the world. I think that is the reaction that causes psychosis i.e. being out of touch with reality. Part of reality is cause and effect, when that is destroyed in your mind and you are lead to believe that you are 'the source' of everything - well, that's just not reality.

No offense to all the people who didn't make it to a psych ward - but for those who did, I think its the ones who resist the most and refuse to 'get out of their heads' that end up there - and that's a good thing, in a way. :) I'm pretty ashamed of the small amount of recruiting and assisting I did; I'm glad I spent more time in hospital than dragging more people into this mess.

Everything you have shared here could be applied to the Impact Trainings in Bluffdale, Utah. It is a mental-health disaster. Good thing we are the leading state in the union for psychiatric medication prescription and abuse! OK, sarcasm may not be helpful here but GOD this LGAT crap is an abomination. Thanks for posting this information SaneAgain. I hope I will be someday too. :)

Quote
exImpact
Everything you have shared here could be applied to the Impact Trainings in Bluffdale, Utah. It is a mental-health disaster. Good thing we are the leading state in the union for psychiatric medication prescription and abuse! OK, sarcasm may not be helpful here but GOD this LGAT crap is an abomination. Thanks for posting this information SaneAgain. I hope I will be someday too. :)

Let me amend this statement. NOT everything, I am referring to the effects of being involved with an LGAT. Impact has learned that expanding business is bad for business and they are now content with keeping a tight strangle-hold on what they have here in Utah. They are control freaks in the extreme.

Connecting a few dots in the South Africa LGAT industry...

[www.apollowebworks.com]

Quote

Subject: Finished your Scamway story...

Wed, 26 Aug 1998

Well-yes. Interesting; There was a cult called Breakthrough that sprung upon
my home town a few years ago that operated along similar lines, separation
of philosophies, almost divine worship of a leader, hugging, sleep
deprivation in the name of "training", and the compulsion to recruit others.
There were in fact three "courses" , named Breakthrough, Joyspring and The
Mile,each of which cost more than the one before. The sad part is that I was
absolutely not interested and many of my friends - and girlfriend - were,
this resulted in an "us and them" situation where suddenly I was an enemy!!.
This cult was run by an allegedly failed Israeli surgeon by the name of
Baruch Banai.Any way, I ramble, but Amway is starting to spread here in
South Africa not that I care much until someone I love gets invulved and
then I will try some rather direct action.
regards

[www.thechristadelphians.org]

Quote

SkepticJun 14 2004, 08:55 AM
Read more about why "cellular memory" is complete nonsense here.

I actually attended a "free seminar" by a guy called Baruch Banai, who is into "primal therapy", which amongst other things claims the trauma of childbirth leaves everyone damaged psychologically(!) and only through "re-experiencing" the birth process will you achieve release (an excperience he offers to facilitate at a hefty fee...) He always mentions in his free introduction that a woman attending one of his course realised for the first time that she had been sexually abused. This seems very impressive to the lay person, but is just part of his very succesful sales tehnique to sell his "training course" (so-called to sidestep legal issues related to doing therapy unlicensed) of building his credibility by siting the fact that he used to be a medical doctor and showing off his impressive knowledge of all the classical psychological theories (even though he isn't a registered therapist) and then he subtly introduces his pseudoscience through very impressive sleight of hand.

"Cellular memory" and "Repressed Memory Syndrome" (which is actually "False Memory Syndrome") is pseudoscience at best and manipulation at worst.

PS: there used to be a web site for ex-victims of Baruch Banai's "therapy", but he has managed to have it closed down...

And this...

[primal-page.com]

Which is about self-primaling and has "Here is the list of readers who would like to correspond with others interested in self-primal therapy:" which includes Wendy Sefor.

So... Pat Grove trained Baruch and Wendy, both of whom now run different LGATs and both of whom have an interest in primal therapy.

I guess some of the techniques used in the training are based on primal therapy or its tenets and that's useful to know because I can read about it and try to understand what they do on the training - because understanding makes me sane. (No, understanding is NOT 'the booby prize', understanding is reality and sanity)


Does anyone know anything about the influence or use of primalling in LGAT?

It seems primal therapy is about doing exercises designed to cause patient to EXPERIENCE old pain and trauma in order to CLEAR and RELEASE it.


Ring any bells?

An interesting perspective on primal therapy and other means of releasing the past:

[quote"It is widely understood by psychiatrists and psychoanalysts that a trauma does not remain sequestered in the past, like a piece of baggage left in a bus station locker"....Psychobabble, R. D. Rosen

[/quote]

[www.primal-page.com]