All--

I joined and first posted here about 2.5 years ago--I went on a date with a woman who was a committed Landmarkian. That didn't go anywhere, and I remain deeply grateful for everyone who offered wisdom and experience.

Although some of this may be "TMI," I thought I would post again, as I have started dating a woman who is a committed Landmarkian. We have a lot in common--similar interests, backgrounds, etc, and we get along very well. There is a sense of ease in being together that is quite wonderful, and a sense that we have known each other a lot longer than we actually have.

However. She said her last serious relationship foundered when her partner refused to participate in various Landmark events. Today I received "the ultimatum:" She cannot be with someone who has not completed a Landmark course. For my part, I temporized and said I could not promise that I would choose to attend one. (For anyone who doesn't know, I have no intention of ever going to one.) She is apparently a small group leader.

I am interested to see how things go.....and if anyone is interested, I'll post further details as they occur.

Best,

Bob

LOL...

Bob! How are you meeting or finding these women?

And why aren't they restricting their activities to the herd of Landmarkian males? It's got to be tough to recruit and reform every new guy. I mean, why not stick to the already converted? Or is it, from what I've seen, that they drive each other crazy....



Ellen

Ah so she wants to fix you! :wink:

Well that's kind of what it is, let me explain. The Landmark course is supposed to be the ultimate in personal development, arrogant, selfish people go in, and enlightened, wise people come out. And one of the things which I heard a lot of from forum leaders during courses was "don't you know anybody who you would really love to take this course just because you can see the rackets they run?" (all hands go up) "and how many people would like to see this change in their partners?" (laughter) "Well let me tell you, when two people who "get it" get together, wow it's like magic!"

That she's delivering that sort of ultimatum to people tells me that she really wants to experience that "magic" with you. Unfortunately! (as you can tell from her behaviour I'm sure) Landmark forum graduates are still just as frustrating to deal with as before they went in, oftentimes they're worse (remember the Zelot effect)! There might be gains in some areas, but it's really impossible to be "racket-free" (like the forum leaders are HA!) hence the endless series of courses you'll be persuaded to do.

Give in and do this course, even if it's just to satisfy her and you just go in and don't participate or not take anything on board at all, and I guarantee the pressure from your girlfriend to do more courses will not only get worse, you'll be getting it from the organisation too. If you refuse then, she'll probably dump you and move on anyway.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news Bob!

Pay close attention to the structure of this game. It has two distinct parts. One is known as the [i:581d7822ef] Yes! set [/i:581d7822ef] or [i:581d7822ef] Yes! ladder [/i:581d7822ef] ... whereby one is asked a series of rhetorical questions, each one having the obvious answer of an enthusiastic [i:581d7822ef] Yes! [/i:581d7822ef] ... which concludes with the "hook" ... goes like IF A=Yes!, and IF B=Yes!, and IF C=Yes!, then naturally D=Yes! ....

How great is would be if TWO people Got It ! Magic ! And all you have to do to make this magic happen is this one little thing.... (sell, sell, sell your boat, merrily down the stream, sell, sell, sell your boat, life is but a dream...) Sell ? Did we say sell ? Nooooo. We never said SELL ! We said ENROLL ! Oh by the way... covert message to your unconscious mind while it is in a highly suggestible state....Enroll=Magic, Enroll=Magic, Enroll=Magic, Enroll=Magic, ad infinitum....

Annnd the second piece of this business is to use unspecified language... which has been the mainstay of this organization since Werher Hans Von Savage Frost Rosenberg got off the bus...[i:581d7822ef] never, never, never commit to specifics [/i:581d7822ef]... always use language that is amorphous so the listener's brain becomes an active participant filling in all the suggestive blanks...

Look, the heart of the matter IS that this is nothing more than extremely amped up sales technique...

Talk in optimistic generalities, let them start dreaming about the benefits without actually [i:581d7822ef] taking responsibility [/i:581d7822ef] for what those benefits might actually be, and get a good Yes! set rolling, then throw the fishies the hook when their guard is down....

High integrity stuff all around.

You are not going to like what I have to say here, but here it is. If she gave you an ultimatum that you do not intend to abide by, then it's time to end this relationship.

For you to imply that you may change your mind about Landmark and actually attend a seminar in the future is dishonest. It's not fair to her and it's not fair to yourself. And if you think you are going to be able to "change" her and get her to see your POV about Landmark, it's not going to happen.

Landmark is not even the real issue here - it's honesty, and leading someone on. What if the issue were, say, children? What if, say, she wanted kids and you didn't, but you said, "I don't want any right now." Wouldn't she have the right to be furious a few years down the line if you eventually said, "I didn't want them at all but I thought you'd change your mind?"

Gulab--

Actually, I have no quibble with what you said at all--I think it is eminently fair. And I think that you're precisely right in identifying honesty as the real issue.

That said, we're going to meet Sunday to talk about it. If she is dead set on only being with someone who will participate in Landmark, that is not me and we'll part company at least on a romantic level. While I like her quite a bit, I have two problems with such an ultimatum. First, I don't do well with ultimatums in general. They represent to me an all too obvious power grab that is is not, in my opinion, appropriate in a relationship. Second, Landmark is something that I am very leery about. Accordingly, if her position is fixed, the outcome is predestined. If so, it will be a great pity. But better that than continuing drama.

Further--I'm not clear on how absolute her position is. She said she didn't think she could be with someone who hadn't "experienced" what she has, and that that was very important to her. I can accept that, though to be silly I suppose I could tell her I couldn't be with someone who hasn't completed Ranger or sniper school.

Finally, I do have to give her credit for broaching the subject and being up-front about it from the beginning. When she asked if I had heard of Landmark, I replied that I had, explained how, and that I chose not to participate. If I had remembered the term "racket" I would have asked her what hers were, and what she thought mine were.

Elena--Good to hear from you! To answer your question--we met off of Match, and that is where I met the woman who was the inspiration for the first thread I started.

Thanks all! I'll post back once this is resolved.

Bob

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automaticftp
That said, we're going to meet Sunday to talk about it. If she is dead set on only being with someone who will participate in Landmark, that is not me and we'll part company at least on a romantic level. While I like her quite a bit, I have two problems with such an ultimatum. First, I don't do well with ultimatums in general. They represent to me an all too obvious power grab that is is not, in my opinion, appropriate in a relationship. Second, Landmark is something that I am very leery about. Accordingly, if her position is fixed, the outcome is predestined. If so, it will be a great pity. But better that than continuing drama. . . .

Finally, I do have to give her credit for broaching the subject and being up-front about it from the beginning. When she asked if I had heard of Landmark, I replied that I had, explained how, and that I chose not to participate. If I had remembered the term "racket" I would have asked her what hers were, and what she thought mine were. Bob

Hi Bob,

Seems you see the red flags. The key now is to not give in to emotion when you get together. You've opened the door to an "enrollment conversation" by meeting with her. You may be "touched, moved, and inspired" by what she says, and decide to give it a chance. Don't. Interpsychofaith relationships with Lekkies just don't work. They are like the Borg -- in the end they want to assimilate you too, so you can share in the ecstasy of the collective. This validates their experience and keeps the cycle of new meat coming. This is not win-win. This is win-lose. You lose.

She wants to share this with you. That much is clear. But this is more than sharing something "that is important to her." Sharing this damages you. Sharing this changes who you are and disables critical life skills -- critical thinking to start with. Would you be as willing to meet with her if she said she couldn't be with someone who hadn't experienced (and therefore you needed to share) the ebola virus? It's not much different in my opinion.

That said, don't necessarily discard her as a friend, if you would otherwise want to know her as a friend, and if you can relate on that level without going further. You can't change her, but she may tire of Landmark on her own down the line.

How nice it would be if places like Match had as part of their criteria filters to match or weed out those who have have been to brain-pithing (excuse me, I mean enlightening) workshops. :wink:

Thanks Dynamix for the inside insight. Always appreciated!!

-lightwolf

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automaticftp
Finally, I do have to give her credit for broaching the subject and being up-front about it from the beginning. When she asked if I had heard of Landmark, I replied that I had, explained how, and that I chose not to participate. If I had remembered the term "racket" I would have asked her what hers were, and what she thought mine were.

True, at least she's being honest and open about her agenda, it's not generally the way Landmarkians choose to tackle recruitment, but they might use blackmail in the right circumstances, your situation is a good example. Most of the time, landmarkians just use something I like to call "aggressive invitation." It might go something like this:

Landmark person: "Would you like to go to my Landmark graduation night on Tuesday?"
Target: "Ohhhh, sorry I already have plans on Tuesday night."
Landmark person: "Oh really? What are your plans?"
Target: "Oh my sister is going back to Taiwan on Wednesday, we're throwing her a going away party."
Landmark person: "Is there any way you could possibly move the party to another night, or maybe have the party earlier or later?" (I'm NOT kidding, I myself asked people to change their personal family events to accommodate graduation nights/Landmark introductions, just goes to show how much of a true believer I was :roll:)
Target: "No, I don't think I can change it, I'm going to be really busy. And I'm busy on every other night anyway."
Landmark person: "Are you SURE you can't move anything around? What about next Saturday afternoon? They're going to be having an introduction, you really should go check it out it's really an incredible course I'm telling you."

Basically the objective is to "try to get the person to be unreasonable with their decision (oops! sorry) [u:9fbb20d134]choice[/u:9fbb20d134] to attend an introduction" but it's really just badgering the person until they give in. Badgering people is a HUGE part of Landmark, and as you get further into their courses, you learn to be more and more subtly persuasive so you'll drive less people away. In the beginning with the forum, I scared off so many of my friends away you wouldn't believe it, and when I got out I apologised, and every single one of them said "I'm so glad you're back!" :wink:

I think both the blackmail and the "aggressive invitation" tactics they employ need to go. It's not nice to risk people's personal relationships with friends and family to get numbers. If your girlfriend is going to keep on delivering these ultimatums to people, she's going to keep driving men away, unless she finds someone she can dominate enough to get them in. Count yourself lucky that you're not that person :)

Lightwolf: You're welcome buddy! I thank all the critics around here for speaking the truth and helping me wake up! :wink:

Dynamix--

That sounds very like the advice and discussion around the thread I posted a long time ago:

[board.culteducation.com]

On the one hand, I'm glad she's been upfront about it. I harbor no illusions about "converting" her--if it works for her, I think that is great! I simply don't have any interest in pursuing it.

The penny dropped--she is actually coming over tonight to "talk about stuff." I rather imagine I already know the agenda!

Bob

It's stuff like this that lsupports my conclusion that Landmark is pure evil. Not only does it make people that are truly hurt worse off than they were before, they victimize people outside their clique by wasting their time with these underhanded, deceptive recruiting tactics.

Too bad about your experience, I'm sure it does not feel good to have been misled. But you should probably file a complaint with Match about how their site is being used as a recruitment tool for an organization. It may not do much good, but you might prevent someone else from being hurt much worse than you have been.