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Alex_Rush
Running and repeating vapid criticisms achieves nothing.

How would you know this?

I mean, really....how would you ~know~ this?

"Nothing?"

Such certainty. It's astounding how some people can find their way to Landmark and all of a sudden they're omniscient (in their own minds).

How many people do you suppose there are who have left Landmark in the rear view mirror and never looked back, glad to be away from them, glad to throw the thing off, and glad to be out of their clutches.

And are you really meaning to blow off the many and varied, thoughtful, considerate posters here who have survived the abuse and been so generous as to provide the information to warn others away?

I say people leaving and people staying away in droves will ACHIEVE plenty.


Ellen

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Alex_Rush
Running and repeating vapid criticisms achieves nothing.

As is pretty much the intellectual standard for ESTmarkThink, Alex Rush can hardly bring himself to express more than his own two dimensional vapidity...

Alex, my friend, should you have a single original thought or observation rolling around in your mind, by all means share it..

Now, as for [i:9dfd647779] your own [/i:9dfd647779] vapid belief , "criticism is easy"... I'm terribly afraid to inform you that criticism is both hard work , especially if you are doing rigorous criticism, and, since you don't know much, if anything, about the history of criticism as an art form, the role of the critic has been esential in the evolution of many disciplines of culture, the humanities, science, politic, journalism.

As a matter of fact, it is safe to say that the spirit and activity of dynamic criticism is one of the hallmarks of western civilization and one of the indespensible components of a vital society.

It appears that your ESTmark environment has succeeded in disabling your critical faculties which, by the by, is one of their [i:9dfd647779] Specialities Du Maison [/i:9dfd647779] ...

One of the most debilitating aspects of the ESTmark belief system is that any criticism directed toward them [i:9dfd647779] cannot [/i:9dfd647779] be authentic , cannot be useful, and must be shut down. ESTmark, contrary to their philosophical belchings , [i:9dfd647779] thrives on the drama of condemnation of any disagreement [/i:9dfd647779] ... all arrows pointed at ESTmark must be turned back on the speaker of the criticism... the JunkLogic is "ESTmark is right because ESTmark has declared itself to be right".... and that, Alex my boy, is about as vapid as vapid gets.

And no, your extremely stupid theory that "criticism achieves nothing" is well, stupid because I declare it to be stupid. Therefore you are stupid. Are we complete on that? Yes. We are because I said so. I declare it complete. Anything else is just your pathetic little racket. Why ?, because I have declared that your racket is pathetic, therefore I am right. I'm not right because I need to be right. I am right because I am right. Got It ? Follow me ?

Now I declare my next thought to be absolutely brilliant, It is brilliant because it is brilliant. I am that I am. I Yam the Possibility of Yam. I am pure love. I am the second coming. I am hot stuff. I am the orgasm made material. I am the reincarnation of Werner. I declare this to be so. Therefore what the bleep do we know? I am Werner 2.0.

Now listen to me, vapid Alex.... yeah, criticism achieves a lot. Criticism focuses the discussion. Criticism deflated the pompous, the incoherent, the self indulgent, it forces concepts to be refined, it aids in understanding, it provides jumping off points for discussion, it brings together strands of ideas for further synthesis, it forces systems to grow. It enlarges worldviews...

Without criticism all you have is stagnant authoritarian crap for culture and politics. Powerful criticism is the lifeblood of a free society. Ask anyone who lived under Stalin what life was like. What culture was like.

People like you should go live for a year in North Korea then come back and tell us what you think about the critical spirit.

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Alex_Rush
Nettie seems to get what it's about (how to comunicate with believers?). Has Nettie signed the reform petition?

It's easy to criticize. Constructive comments?

Alex,

I wonder if you realize you only validate our views about Landmark when you communicate in ways we've all seen and heard many, many times before. You say the Nettie seems to get it, so I presume you mean the rest of us don't. How do you know? Have you asked us? No. Is Ellen right? Are you now omniscient, and know what we know? You have presumed to, oh my God, make us wrong. So, evidently "getting it" means agreement with the hive, submission to the collective, and all debate and discussion, certainly [i:0a98c2c1ab]criticism[/i:0a98c2c1ab], the anathema of society, should cease and desist. Maybe we actually do get what you are trying to do -- transform Landmark for the reasons I copied in one of my posts above:

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It's worthwhile to keep in mind that in the end, the reform conversation is not about us, it's not about this group, and it's not about Landmark. It's about the people out there who will not have access to a life they love until a way is found to bring the conversation of transformation broadly into the mainstream. Having experienced and observed the power of this education as Landmark graduates, we know that Landmark has the goods. At the same time, we can identify systemic issues that unnecessarily result in graduates and prospective participants walking away with negative impressions of Landmark or otherwise losing access to transformation. It is a great loss for the global community if we do not reform what may work for many, but is insufficiently effective in positively reaching the mainstream.

I get it Alex. I would offer that this is what you don't know you don't know. Problem is, I reject it. Making the Kool-aid taste better so you don't scare off so many "guests" (I would never treat a "guest" in my home like the way I was treated at graduation nights) isn't reform, it's simply dressing the pig in a nicer dress. I don't want to make the disease more palatable, or the symptoms more comfortable. I want to reform Landmark too, Alex, but nothing short of complete elimination of this insane, parasitic and deceitful "education" is acceptable. Can you be enrolled in that possiblity?

Besides the tremendously important reasons we [i:0a98c2c1ab]need[/i:0a98c2c1ab] criticsm that nutrino points out, it is an important part of true friendship. I don't know you Alex, and from what I've read of your posts on the Yahoo site, you're probably a pretty good guy, although deceived in my opinion. Since I don't know you, I can't call you a friend. But, many who post on this forum, myself included have friends, loved ones, etc that are involved in Landmark or similar groups, and as friends, it is our job and our duty to not just tell them what they want to hear, and enter into "agreement" with them on whatever they want to do with their "possibilities," but to look them in the eye and say this is a load of male bovine waste product. Offering criticsm of the reform effort is in my opinion, a valuable gift that we are providing. But, you can make it mean whatever you want.

A free market is ruthlessly critical and critically ruthless. As such it does us all a tremendous favor by demanding that only the products and ideas that best meet peoples needs and wants survive. From what I have seen, hence my "experience," the LGAT crowd can't survive in the real world which demands lucid and cogent review. So, they create their own little worlds, bubbles connected by possibility that keep the outside world, well, outside. In the LGAT bubble, criticism (decending into powerlessness, I think it is, right?) is not tolerated. Everyone's ideas are OK, nobody is "made wrong" and every little thing is nurtured and protected and we all enroll each other to "grow." Besides being inauthentic to true friendship, this is fantasy, not reality. In the little bubble of my house, I can grow tropical plants and flowers and they will thrive. Take them outside of the bubble into the real, Zone 4 world about 6 months from now, and they will die quickly. This is not an interpretation, or perception, and I'm not making it mean this. This is reality.

I am most thankful for those here who have escaped the LGAT bondage, seen the light, and as Ellen said, now warn others of the danger. That is a valuable service. It is constructive to those souls who are diverted from this "education." Reforming Landmark is not enough. It's only treating the symptoms. That is not constructive. It is just another fraud perpetrated on your beloved "global community."

-lightwolf

Save your breath, Nutrino. Did I criticize criticism in general? No. Repeating vapid criticisms achieves nothing. Period.

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elena

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Alex_Rush
Running and repeating vapid criticisms achieves nothing.

How would you know this?

I mean, really....how would you ~know~ this?

"Nothing?"

Such certainty. It's astounding how some people can find their way to Landmark and all of a sudden they're omniscient (in their own minds).

How many people do you suppose there are who have left Landmark in the rear view mirror and never looked back, glad to be away from them, glad to throw the thing off, and glad to be out of their clutches.

And are you really meaning to blow off the many and varied, thoughtful, considerate posters here who have survived the abuse and been so generous as to provide the information to warn others away?

I say people leaving and people staying away in droves will ACHIEVE plenty.


Ellen

You know it too.

Walking away is not running. Good for them, truly. Even if that achieves nothing else.

Thoughtful, considerate posters are not running. They are remaining engaged. Good.

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lightwolf
I get it Alex. I would offer that this is what you don't know you don't know. Problem is, I reject it. Making the Kool-aid taste better so you don't scare off so many "guests" (I would never treat a "guest" in my home like the way I was treated at graduation nights) isn't reform, it's simply dressing the pig in a nicer dress. I don't want to make the disease more palatable, or the symptoms more comfortable. I want to reform Landmark too, Alex, but nothing short of complete elimination of this insane, parasitic and deceitful "education" is acceptable. Can you be enrolled in that possiblity?

Besides the tremendously important reasons we [i:c755a8f5af]need[/i:c755a8f5af] criticsm that nutrino points out, it is a important part of true friendship. I don't know you Alex, and from what I've read of your posts on the Yahoo site, you're probably a pretty good guy, although deceived in my opinion. Since I don't know you, I can't call you a friend. But, many who post on this forum, myself included have friends, loved ones, etc that are involved in Landmark or similar groups, and as friends, it is our job and our duty to not just tell them what they want to hear, and enter into "agreement" with them on whatever they want to do with their "possibilities," but to look them in the eye and say this is a load of male bovine waste product. Offering criticsm of the reform effort is in my opinion, a valuable gift that we are providing. But, you can make it mean whatever you want.

A free market is ruthlessly critical and critically ruthless. As such it does us all a tremendous favor by demanding that only the products and ideas that best meet peoples needs and wants survive. From what I have seen, hence my "experience," the LGAT crowd can't survive in the real world which demands lucid and cogent review. So, they create their own little worlds, bubbles connected by possibility that keep the outside world, well, outside. In the LGAT bubble, criticism (decending into powerlessness, I think it is, right?) is not tolerated. Everyone's ideas are OK, nobody is "made wrong" and every little thing is nurtured and protected and we all enroll each other to "grow." Besides being inauthentic to true friendship, this is fantasy, not reality. In the little bubble of my house, I can grow tropical plants and flowers and they will thrive. Take them outside of the bubble into the real, Zone 4 world about 6 months from now, and they will die quickly. This is not an interpretation, or perception, and I'm not making it mean this. This is reality.

I am most thankful for those here who have escaped the LGAT bondage, seen the light, and as Ellen said, now warn others of the danger. That is a valuable service. It is constructive to those souls who are diverted from this "education." Reforming Landmark is not enough. It's only treating the symptoms. That is not constructive. It is just another fraud perpetrated on your beloved "global community."

-lightwolf

Great post.

Reform is removing the Kool-Aid and the pig. No grad nights. No sugar. No lipstick. Education.

Did you see that Landmark revenue is up 50% in the last two years from $50 to $75 million? Complete elimination? Reform? Equally improbable?

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nutrino

Now I declare my next thought to be absolutely brilliant, It is brilliant because it is brilliant. I am that I am. I Yam the Possibility of Yam. I am pure love. I am the second coming. I am hot stuff. I am the orgasm made material. I am the reincarnation of Werner. I declare this to be so. Therefore what the bleep do we know? I am Werner 2.0.

There's a poem in there somewhere:) You see, criticism and creativity are by no means incompatible:)
Love
Kath

aum...

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Alex_Rush
Reform is removing the Kool-Aid and the pig. No grad nights. No sugar. No lipstick. Education.

Did you see that Landmark revenue is up 50% in the last two years from $50 to $75 million? Complete elimination? Reform? Equally improbable?

Good morning Alex, glad you enjoyed what I wrote.

Since Landmark's financials are not public (at least to my knowledge), I can't comment on their revenues. For the sake of discussion, however, I will accept that they are up. Doesn't this bode poorly for your efforts as well, however? LEC has a profitable yet personally disempowering business model. As I and others have pointed out before, convincing legions of people that they need to market the LEC product without compensation in order to complete their "transformation" is highly effective. That doesn't make it right however. LEC will not allow your efforts to succeed because it is a direct attack on their very lucrative business model. You are going after the core of their business. Expect to be given just enough to give you hope but never succeed.
[www.despair.com]

Complete elimination is also improbable. But, like you, I imagine the possibility of my goal. Its improbability challenges me to work harder, not take my ball and go home. Every person I divert from LGAT clutches is a victory.

How about taking a different approach to reform? Drive for informed consent in the registration process. Disclose the fact that hypnotic induction and altered states of consciousness are intentionally used. Demand that assistants are paid a wage commensurate with their duties, in compliance with all local labor laws. Insist upon a critical review of it's "education" and practices. Drive for protection of clients by insisting upon having licensed, board-certified psychologists on hand at each training to make sure that boundaries into therapy are not crossed. Have LEC respond to criticism with conversation and dialog, not litigation. Make sure people are well rested, well fed, can sit with who they want, etc. etc, etc. Step out of the bubble.

I don't think LEC would do nearly as well out in the light of the open marketplace. Right now it hides in the underbrush, surviving on it's guest recruitment, drawing little attention to itself. If it actually had to go out and get customers like other businesses do, revenues would not do as well. If you believe otherwise, then you must answer, why aren't they doing this now? It is doing what maximizes its profits. Your reforms will be as welcome as mine.

But, each of us pursuing our own interests is what makes the world go 'round.

I do appreciate your posts here. It is good to have the other point of view. While we will probably not agree on our goals for LEC, hopefully you see our posts and beliefs are not driven by "hate and fear," but passion for freedom of thought.

-lightwolf

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Reform is removing the Kool-Aid and the pig. No grad nights. No sugar. No lipstick. Education.

Alex, buddy.... somewheres in the process you were socialized to express yourself in these simplistic [i:af00f9a674] thought pellets [/i:af00f9a674] .... that's so ESTmark in terms of [i:af00f9a674] cognitive style [/i:af00f9a674] ....

Allow me to submit unto you that [i:af00f9a674] genuine reform [/i:af00f9a674] of the ESTmark organization must cut far, far deeper than cosmetic changes, lipstick, mascara, or hair club for men... it has to go deeper than rearranging the chairs on the upper deck of the Titanic ...

You see, Werner Erhard had a compatriot, someone who you may not know about, who was a major influence on the EST paradigm and the Landmark paradigm... and for you, Alex Rush, to begin to understand the circumstances you, ESTmark, Harry Rosenberg, and everyone else finds him or herself enmeshed in, you [b:af00f9a674] must [/b:af00f9a674] , and this ain't no joke , come to terms with the legacy of [b:af00f9a674] Fernando Flores [/b:af00f9a674] ...

Now, let's clear something up here... that "we" are speaking from outside the loop and couldn't possibly understand what goes on inside your organization.... because [i:af00f9a674] I knew Fernando Flores and got along well with him personally [/i:af00f9a674] ... I actually liked the guy and appreciated him in a way that I couldn't have with Jack Rosenberg and his clutch of fawning groupie chicks and servile monks who doted on him and never questioned anything he said....

But.... we get ahead of ourselves here... I'm assuming that you know something of Flores, his influence on Erhard/Rosenberg , his long term impct on the Landmark Corporation as it exists today ... his life experiences that shaped him, and the resultant [b:af00f9a674] language philosophy [/b:af00f9a674] that was to become the [b:af00f9a674] core material [/b:af00f9a674] of The Forum...

Ever heard of the guy ? You know where Fernando was from ? Augusto Pinochet and Richard Nixon and a proxy war down south for the control of the world's copper markets ? Interesting blend of CIA politiks and corporate strongarming collides with ultra left wing Continental philosophy in the tumultous 1970s... but, as you might be guessing by now... this is no easy topic to unravel...

So, to keep it short and sweet for now.... the philosophical core of your [i:af00f9a674] present languaging of coming into being [/i:af00f9a674] descends from this struggle which was both intensely political, intensely philosophical, and where the boots were on the ground, terifically brutal ...