I went to two Klemmer seminars and the second, lengthier one included all of the 13 liabilities. They weren't as apparent in the first or I would not have continued on. Est -like--yes. Cult-like--yes. Abusive at times--definitely. There are also strong fundamentalist Christian undertones to this group's presentation. In the group I attended, a majority were Baptist or Mormon. It seems that Klemmer has found a way to manipulate personal growth principles in a way that is marketable to fundamentalists. Unlike Est and some other related personal growth movements, Klemmer also seems to attract the less-educated, less sophisticated student. Again, not so apparent in the first, shorter class. This cultural dynamic seems to make for even greater acceptance of the unhealthy tactics they use. Save your money, save your time, save your psyche. There are much healthier ways to grow then through Klemmer.

This approach is going to be a little different. I appreciate your patience:-)

Before registering for the personal mastery seminar, I asked a married couple who I've known since high school about their experience. I should mention that they are not only of the same faith but some of the nicest people on the planet and have always been a blessing to me personally. Anyway, they said nothing but good about K&A and their expeirence and encouraged me to go.

I signed up for personal mastery for a weekend last summer based upon their recommendation. When I arrived Friday evening, I noticed most if not all of the attendees attended a church and considered themselves Christian. So I expected this to be a safe environment being in the midst of other believers.

Although K&A is open to all belief systems, they seem to target Christians and I have a problem with that. The marketing call of the company is that if you are unhappy with your life, unfulfilled, not getting everything you want, not being able to give everything you want, or just are not achieving what you thought you would, could or should in life that you need this seminar. [...]

K&A presents to the Christian that the seminar or experience of the different levels of seminars beyond personal mastery will help a person grow more and more in knowledge of truth and basically they will find that they will get what they want out of life..better marriage, work, relationships...you name it.

But from a follower of Christ's perspective, none of this is accomplished apart from Him alone! [...]

So I observed the Christians at this weekend seminar eat up this stuff. For a few moments even I was questioning some things that seemed OK..but by Saturday morning, I recognized there was something strange going on. [...] So, I decided to continue to finish through Sunday to see what would be taught.

What I found from a Christian perspective were extremely dangerous exercises. For example, the relaxation technique borders on hypnosis and mind control. Although during the class, because of group peer pressure, no brought it up. Part of the reason is group peer pressure to conform [...]

Another exercise that is dangerous is pairing up with someone, even someone you don't know very well, and hold hands and share very intimate things with them. [...]

[...]Several people signed up for the next level seminar. After graduation ceremony I was troubled.[...] Initially, select people in our class sent out mass emails to our group. A few responded with their new attitude on life. But I responded with my own encoruagement. Again, please know that all of the people that attended the seminar I was in were supposedly Christians. So, I encouraged them to get into the Word of God..to study the scriptures...to spend time with the Lord [...]I said nothing negative about K&A.[...]

But the seminar did not encoruage to seek the Lord for Truth. They encouraged spending time stuyding their materials...or what they advocated....they encouraged meditating on their systems and processes and ways of thinking. They encouraged attending their next level seminar and for those who didn't sign up, they were missing out on a better life.

[...]it's a distraction from the Truth and could lead Christians down a path to focusing on selfish ambition, vision, goals, etc... without God.[...]

I haven't met one person who has gone through that seminar that said that their relationship with the Lord is stronger and they spend more time in the Bible than before [...]

I'm not saying the founders of this are evil and they are purposely doing this.But I am saying it's possible they might be deceived. [...]

[...]This man totally affirmed everything I shared as I opened the Bible up to him. He said he was very uncomfortable during some of the exercises but did not know if anyone else was sensing what he was sensing at the time. The reason is because the way they conducted the meetings they really didn't want any side conversation. Only conversation that related to group exercises. Even during breaks they encouraged us to not talk about anything else.

So again, my warning is to those who call themselves Believers, Followers of Christ. [...] I would just encourage you to pray about attending this seminar and listen to what God shares with you. [...]

[[b:fbc87792cc]Moderator's note: This post has been edited to fit within the guidelines of this message board, which are essentially no preaching and/or proselytizing][/b:fbc87792cc]

I find this thread very interesting, specifically the levels of argumentation. It seems to me that Diver Guy uses logic to make sound arguments and that appears to be a threat to some; thus replies to his post end up in a number of logical fallacies. I don't recall that even one person acknowledge that the other had made a strong point. If you are going to debate, use solid logic. Otherwise, I wonder why you find it necessary to argue with a man who is simply speaking from his own experience.

To whom it may concern:

I have deleted posts that were taking this thread off topic and into the area of religious beliefs and preaching.

This is against the rules.

Let's try to stay on topic, which is specifically "Klemmer and Associates."

firebrand,

(based on the message from the moderator and the missing posts, I will assume my reply was also a casualty)

This is a shorter, hopefully legal, version of my response:

*

In my experience, K&A does not 'target' Christians. In fact, to my knowledge, they do not do any marketing. The only advertising is word of mouth. So if you believe Christians are being targeted, then it is being done by other Christians, not K&A specifically.

K&A courses, with the exception of The Quickening, are secular in nature and do not promote any belief over another. They recognize and acknowledge that there are many different beliefs and they attempt to treat each person, and their individual faith or belief, with respect.

I'm not sure where you got the impression that someone should be 'on fire...' after they complete the coursework. I was never given that impression nor told that was a goal at any time during the seminars I attended.

Secular is not a synonym for Athiest or Agnostic.

None of the coursework that I experienced in K&A contradicted any of my Christian learning or beliefs.

K&A seminars are a tool. Like a pencil or a car, they can be used for good or evil, right or wrong.

Peace,
DG

Yes, Klemmer and Associates seems to fall well within the category of "large group awareness training" (LGAT), such as Landmark Education, EST, Lifespring, PSI World, NXIVM, Sterling Institute of Relationship, Impact and other similarly structured and controversial groups.

LGATs have their own set of repeated problems as anyone can see by reviewing them through the following subsection within the Ross Institute database.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Such courses have also been called "mass marathon training" and seem to have specific problems related to their structure and dynamics.

See [www.culteducation.com]

If you look back on this thread you will see that this link has been posted before and that "DiverGuy" is here to defend Klemmer and his "experience," not to exercise critical thinking and engage in any sort of meaningful dialog.

And if you compare DiverGuy's pattern of defenses against other threads about Landmark Education and other LGATs, you will seen that those that defend the other LGATs on this message sound virtually identical to DiverGuy.

That is, LGAT supporters typically refuse to seriously examine what's wrong with their LGAT through its design, dynamics and/or practices, and instead attempt to somehow place repsonsibilty for problems esentially on the participants, explaining "that's not my experience" and/or that the LGAT is "not for everyone."

To whom it may concern:

"DiverGuy" has been banned from the message board.

The Moderator makes a good correlation between K&A and other mass training groups. I do not discount DG's personal experience with K&A. Likewise, I can only speak about my own personal experience with K&A and allow people to make up their own minds.

1. Based upon my personal experience, K&A targets Christians. I initially heard the founder of K&A and experienced his teachings through an event put on by a well known Christian Ministry. During this event, the founder of K&A gave a very brief version of the sunglasses demonstration (which addresses changing belief systems that have been held and the way we view the world) and the Intention + Mechanism = Results (the million dollar formula).

Based on my impressions and experiences with K&A, K&A works very hard on helping people change their belief systems. With that said, since K&A embraces and respects all belief systems, is it possible that the above (K&A's embracing of all belief systems falling more in line with a New Age philosophy) is K&A's belief system?

During the Christian Ministry event, the founder of K&A made an offer to everyone who attended this event that if they became a partner with the Christian Ministry, K&A would provide a Personal Mastery weekend at no cost- a $795 value.

At the time, I became a partner with the Christian Ministry. Now I should mention I did not become a partner to get Personal Mastery for free...but I made a decision to partner with the Ministry because I wanted to be a blessing to the Ministry. The invitation to attend Personal Mastery seemed like a nice bonus. Partnership in the Ministry equated to one year of financial and prayer support.

I may not have attended the free Personal Mastery offered to me except for several circumstances that led up to my choice to go...here's a few:

First, people I knew from my high school who attended Personal Mastery and were at the same Christian Ministry event recommended I go. When I asked what happened at the seminar they did not share any details but said I must experience the seminar. They said it was difficult to put into words. Now, I still trust them even if I differ regarding my experience versus their perceived positive experience with Personal Mastery.

Second, there were several Christian supporters of Personal Mastery at the Christian Ministry event that really encouraged me to go. Several graduates of Personal Mastery were at this Christian Ministry event and would not really share any details but just encouraged me that it would be life changing and to go.

Third, before attending I made a phone call to K&A and spoke to a girl that had attended Personal Mastery and said her life was changed so much that she now works for K&A. During our conversation, she said her life was really messed up but when she came across K&A, her life is so much better.

Fourth, after all of this, I made the decision before attending Personal Mastery to experience the Champion's Workshop. Champions is a two hour preliminary event where K&A offers some value and presents the opportunity to sign up for Personal Mastery. During the Champion's Workshop, I learned the presenter attended the same Christian university I went to. At the time I thought this gave the company more credibility.

After adding up all of these experiences I decided to attend Personal Mastery. Yes it was my choice and although I sensed something was not right after the first evening, I decided to go through the entire seminar.

Now, I'm not saying the Christian Ministry is aware of K&A whether knowingly or unknowingly possibly using them to target Christians among other groups. But it is because this Christian Ministry has influence over Christians, that I believe K&A, whether knowingly (or unknowingly through deception which is most likely the case-I don't believe the founders are evil and are purposely trying to deceive people) and based upon my own personal experiences, opinions, observations and perceptions, targets Christians. The majority, if not all, of the people that attended my Personal Mastery were church goers or Christians.

2. I've only attended the Personal Mastery and Champions Workshops...and both focus on changing belief systems. Based on my personal experiences and perceptions, belief systems enter the realm of what K&A names as 'God' or whatever you want to call it. DG is correct in that K&A attempts to treat every belief system and faith with respect. That is true...but K&A in my opinion goes beyond respecting other beliefs to embracing them into their seminars. In my experience from Personal Mastery, there were numerous references made to good moral teachers including Ghandi, etc... A Christian perspective says there is only One Teacher which would differ from my experience with K&A's teachings.

3. To K&A's credit, nothing was ever forced on us. In other words, they did not require us to go through each exercise. But because no one wanted to be left out, no one sat out from any of the exercises. Again, there were at least two exercises that boarder on hypnosis, mind control, visualization and other techniques that are contrary to the Christian belief system. I found it interesting they required me and everyone else who participated to sign a waiver at the beginning absolving K&A from any mental/emotional damages we might sustain from going through Personal Mastery.

4. Anyone can attend K&A. My reference to someone being 'on fire' was specifically to a Christian and based upon my personal experience with K&A attendees that claimed to be Christians. I would not expect someone who has not embraced the belief system of Christianity to walk out of K&A 'on fire'.

5. It's one thing to respect a belief system...it's another to incorporate their practices and teachings into a seminar. In my personal opinion and experience of going through Personal Mastery, K&A goes beyond just respecting all belief systems. They incorporate exercises that do not line up with a Christian belief system.

my friend has come back from Klemmers and Associates. He has been non stop promoting how you have to go to this program in order to revolutionize your life on to the road of wealth. So pretty much he was saying without attending this conference I would not be successful in life(WTH?!?!). He pretty much thinks everybody that doesnt do this is ignorant. I told him I have no money but he constantly pesters me to find a way. Even if it means to get into more debt because this program will supposledly help me get the tools to become a millionaire! Its too the point I cant stand being around him because all he talks about is how I should go(BOY I SHOULD HAVE NEVER SHARED THAT I WAS A LITTLE FRUSTRATED WITH LIFE). So I finally told him today I was a little uncomfortable about this group and that I didnt want to talk about it. He reacted by saying I didnt care about anything. He got really pissed off. Funny thing is I dont see any results in his life. He doesnt go to school. He sits at home all day. He makes a few phone calls trying to grow his business. BUt I dont see a changed man. But a man that has turned into a even more arrogant person. Its funny when I give a response to what I think..he doesnt even give a reply to it...I dont know..I think klemmers really does a brainwashing to people...it makes them into some elite type of people...wth is wrong with my friend...i decided today not to talk to him about personal things anymore...