"AA and the 12-steps programs are one of the "sacred cows" here, and in society at large."

They are a cost-effective method of feigning interest in the problem of addiction on the part of the public and government; it doesn't cost a dime to court order someone to go to AA.
This is probably why AA is the only religious organization thet the government (courts) can force a citizen to join, in violation of his or her constitutional rights.

The good news is, many courts are recognizing this. Court cases have been won by those who protest, in court, their right to freedom from religion.
(google Stanton Peele if interested.)

Because there are those who have been helped by 12-steps groups, does not mean they do not fall in the realm of cultic.

When I first stumbled upon criticism of 12 step groups in terms of cultishness, I didn't want to read because I had been a big believer in the 12 steps. It took me months to muster the courage to peek at the "criticism", and then more months to go deeper and to give it serious consideration.

Having been in both the 12 step community and an LGAT, and having done some reading pertaining to both, I see the 12 step program as being closer to the cultic end of the continuum than not.

I have looked into the criticism of AA over the years, including the writings of Stanton Peele:

I don't find the criticism either convincing or compelling regarding claims that AA is "cultic."

And I have never received complaints from families similar to those received about cults.

rrmoderator: I do not doubt it has helped some. I know some it has helped. I also know some that it has killed. A young woman who was told that to take her seizure medication would put her back to day 1 comes to mind. She died from a seizure.

I know another person to whom it was /suggested/ that they begin to attend Al-Anon. When they chose not to, the spouse told them that they were the sick person, because they were not working the steps.

Like Skeptic, I do see it being closer to the cultic than the normal fringe.

Sadly, many people have also died due to alcoholism.

AA has prevented some deaths and I know of such situations.

Likewise Al-Anon has saved marriages.

Certainly, people on medication should consult their doctor when deciding if and when they should cease or continue to take prescribed medication.

In many circles it is considered politically incorrect to adress the abuses within the 12 step programs.

Perhaps alcoholics and addicts are so disruptive to society that they do not, in the minds of many, deserve the rights our constitution alledgedly awards to all.

Nevertheless, I would like to hear the views of those who see only good in the 12 steps as to why it is appropriate for the courts to force American citizens, non-felons at that, to attend meetings of this undeniably religious organization?

As far as I am aware, the right to religious freedom has not as of yet been revoked.

I've been glancing over some of my old 12 step stuff, and the program uses groupthink (they speak in "we" and, as with LGATs, the followers are clone-like; individual thinking doesn't fit in). If you don't agree with the (b&w) program, or parts thereof, the problem is YOUR THINKING! Your will is in the way of surrender and your will is the problem! Your character defects are the problem.

I was, until recently, involved in Al-Anon for about 3 years due to an ex-girlfriend who is a recovering alcoholic (and now involved in Landmark wouldn't you know it).

Overall I'd say my experience in Al-Anon was disappointing. Out of true soul-searching to look at what "my part" may have been in the disintegration of my relationship, I earnestly gave Al-Anon a try...keeping an open mind (as they say) to see if it might work for me and bring me some peace. But, cursed with the trait of critical thinking, I was never able to fully buy into it.

Since Al-Anon is indeed free, I would encourage anyone to attend a few meetings and observe for yourself. Al-Anon typically is for the non-addict so if you do not have a dependency issue, you may not feel like a sore thumb sticking out, so that would be the one to go to for observation. Also, you are not required to state why you are there, or say anything at all. You can just sit and listen.

But in my observation, and actual hands-on experience, there are many, many folks in those rooms who swallow it hook, line, and sinker. While they say at the end of each meeting to "take what you like and leave the rest" (read from a standard closing), it is clear that most don't exercise that option. Groupthink is very prevalent. In fact, at one of my last meetings a couple months ago, I actually volunteered to do the meeting topic and presented this issue. I said that it was my feeling, that unless you subscribe to the 12 Step philosophy completely, it is very hard to fit in there. I said my impression in the few years I've attended is that as long as you're trying to "get it" (there's that phrase!!!) 12 Step members will befriend you. But, if you do like I did, and say, "You know, there are some things about this 'program' I just don't get, and probably never will, because frankly, I don't think they make much sense" automatically you are seen as a rebel and not welcomed into the circle. In three years you'd think I'd have made some friends in those rooms, but only a couple, because I never was willing to dumb myself down and babble all the jargon and slogans like a robot. A popular phrase is "your best thinking got you here" (as if all your thinking is bad and needs to be fully replaced with Al-Anon concepts?). Another popular cliche is "alcoholics have a drinking problem, al-anonics have a thinking problem". If you get a sponsor to "guide" you through the 12 Steps, most sponsors will advise you not to think and analyze, just accept the doctrine and follow it (i.e., act "as if" until it finally "is"). They also advocate "going to any lengths" (i.e., getting out of the drivers seat yourself and submitting to the group methodology). Much of the philosophy is very black and white and leaves little room for the grey in which most truth and practicality resides.

It is very clear that many Al-Anon attendies "talk the talk" (although not necessarily walk the walk). Another favorite phrase there is "working the program"...and well, to me that really meant "programming" yourself with the doctrine. If things weren't going well in your life, it was due to not "working the program" with enough vigor, humility, and devotion. If things were going well in your life, it was all due to "working the program" well. It was almost like there was a deep, perpetual fear to question anything, or think for yourself, because if you tarried from the program and went out on your own sometimes, that meant, god forbid, you were operating out of "self-will" and that would mean bad things were going to happen to you.

One thing I could never get is, if you were supposed to turn your will and life over to God...well, how do you know actions you're taking in your life are following God's will now? Or are you still acting out of the evil self-will? Who or what lets us know we're in alignment with our Higher Power's purpose for us?

Anyway, I could go on and on. While certainly 12 Step programs do not fit all the criteria for being a cult, there are definite cultic elements to it. Perhaps it is preferable for some people to give up their individual thought in order to sustain from drinking, codepending, etc., etc. But, as far as codependency goes, it was my observation that many in "the program" are very codependent on one another. Also, despite the goal of the program, some may indeed stop using, but not necessarily get healthier otherwise. And yes, there are always some for whom it seems to have helped tremendously, and they are able to take a more balanced, common sensical approach...integrating the good points into an overall personal growth and development plan that utilizes multiple sources. I, myself, admit I did learn a few valuable things there that helped me. Like focusing more on my own life...not in a self-centered fashion (though many there adopt a license to do so) but in a fashion of knowing what I can and cannot control in another person's behavior. And there are other things as well, that are useful.

Overall, the intention of the program is a well-meaning one. It is intended for people to grow healthier and become better, more honorable human beings. Whether the entire philosophy is amenable to that, is debatable.

Hopefully all can follow what I've written here. I didn't particularly take the time to polish it, as truly a whole book could be written on my experience, so hard to know where to start and where to stop.

Oh...I should also say, in my 3 years in Al-Anon, I had 4 different sponsors and I was "fired" by them all for being "too much to handle". That is, I was too challenging. I was one of those "too smart for the program to work". Whenever I'd discuss the philosophy with the sponsor, or work on Step exercises, I presented too many questions about why this or that makes no sense to me. I broke down their paradigms. I didn't do it to be a smart alec, I just sincerely was trying to find some peace in my life and I wasn't "getting" how this program was giving people peace unless they turned into little numb zombies spouting all the slogans and jargon. And even then, many of them still seemed miserable. My final sponsor was actually a therapist...had a PhD...(they called in the heavy artillery for me)...and I even flustered him. Anyway, getting fired by all these sponsors didn't do much for me to think that this program was there to support...it is only if you "get with the program".

Your observations, "sceptic", are similar to mine, and those of several close relatives of mine who were members, as well as those of many other ex-members I know.
Nevertheless, criticism of AA is not well tolerated by the general public, who see it as the only available option for recovery, which is exactly the way the AA I am familiar with likes it.