Toward achieving a definition of "Respectful Communication", aka, RC (TM)
Posted by: bakkagirl ()
Date: September 01, 2018 10:33AM

In preparation for this holy mission, I dug deeper into NLP, its origins, and features.

I thought this Skeptoid piece was good in terms of the author's linking of NLP to Fritz Perls', 'aggressive' therapeutic style.

I wonder if this is what what appealed to Bandler, as he transcribed tapes of Perls' sessions, what he, Bandler, 'heard', and with his colleagues, weaponized.

[skeptoid.com]

Excerpt:

"I've read a fair amount about NLP, and my analysis of the Meta Model is pretty simple. I'd describe it as a confrontational manner of speaking intended to dominate a conversation by nitpicking the other's persons sentences apart. For example, if it's a good day and all is well, I might be inclined to make an offhand, general comment like "I feel pretty good today." The Meta Model response to that is "What specifically makes you feel good?" And, I don't really know. I don't really have a single, specific answer. And whatever I do come up with gets attacked the same way: "Exactly why does that make you feel good?" And suddenly I'm on the defensive; I'm being made to feel that I'm in error, the position I've taken is revealed to be unsupported; and I'm now putty in the NLP guy's hands. Basically, it's being a condescending jerk in the way you talk to someone, in order to exert influence. That's the Meta Model. It's not psychotherapy; it's high-pressure sales. The Milton Model takes a different road to the same destination: low-pressure sales."

Other researches have concluded that NVC was crafted from this same Meta Model. I am investigating this position.

I guess/know that the mission is to de-weaponize speech, and to create some ground rules for humane, respectful discourse.

bakkagirl

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Re: Toward achieving a definition of "Respectful Communication", aka, RC (TM)
Posted by: kdag ()
Date: September 02, 2018 01:14PM

OMG - yes! I heard Landmark seminar leaders and Forum leaders do that exact same thing, only more when people were relating negative experiences. It would be about something that would upset anyone. You could be robbed, and they would ask how you felt about it. You would say that you were angry, for example, and they would ask you "What was it about that that made you feel angry." And they would just go on and on until the person speaking was exhausted. They make you feel as if you have to justify yourself for being angry about being robbed or raped. It IS invalidating, and they just plain wear people down. In the end, I never saw anyone look as if they actually felt any better about what had happened. Most of them would just take their seat again with a confused look on their face.

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Re: Toward achieving a definition of "Respectful Communication", aka, RC (TM)
Posted by: bakkagirl ()
Date: September 02, 2018 03:17PM

Listen to the master, Fritz Perls, in action.

[www.youtube.com]

You know, people used to make fun of this 'quackery', but that was when people had sense.

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Re: Toward achieving a definition of "Respectful Communication", aka, RC (TM)
Posted by: kdag ()
Date: September 02, 2018 04:20PM

Uggh - I feel like she's talking to Hannibal Lecter in that video. I totally get what she's saying.

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Re: Toward achieving a definition of "Respectful Communication", aka, RC (TM)
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 02, 2018 08:09PM

I read somewhere that in his last days, Perls was abysmally depressed and miserable.

Manipulative control freaks do badly when old age visits and insults their dignity and autonomy.

People like this can get even more dangerous as they age, and for that very reason.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/02/2018 08:19PM by corboy.

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Re: Toward achieving a definition of "Respectful Communication", aka, RC (TM)
Posted by: bakkagirl ()
Date: September 02, 2018 11:12PM

corboy,

If that is the case, I am delighted to hear it.

I understand Perls spent his last few years at the Esalen Institute communing with fellow cerebral narcissists.

Riddle me this: How many cerebral narcissists does it take to screw up multiple generations?

A few years back I found this great website that was selling action figures of famous philosophers.

I have been thinking that a worthy CEI "Comedy Corner" project might be the commissioning of bobble-headed doll figures of OUR heroes, e.g. bobble-head Perls seated across from terrified patient; Bobble-head Bandler pistol in hand; Bobble-head Byron Katie doing gawd knows what...

bakka

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Fritz Perls
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 03, 2018 04:01AM

[wikivividly.com]

This from a Wikipedia article on Perls'

Quote

Perls' approach to therapy has been strongly criticised by Jeffrey Masson.[11] Masson allows Perls' words to speak for themselves, quoting from his autobiography, In and Out the Garbage Pail, to show that Perls was sexist and abusive. For example:

"I got her down again and said, gasping: 'I've beaten up more than one bitch in my life.' Then she got up, threw her arms around me: 'Fritz, I love you.' Apparently she finally got what, all her life, she was asking for, and there are thousands of women like her in the States. Provoking and tantalizing, bitching, irritating their husbands and never getting their spanking. You don't have to be a Parisian prostitute to need that so as to respect your man."

Janov offered a different model of therapy at the same time as Perls so may have been competitive. Nevertheless this may be worth comparing with other assessments:

[primaltherapy.com]

(quote)

Quote

On one hand it is difficult to assess Gestalt Therapy apart from Perls as the driving force behind it, while it seems unfair to draw conclusions about the therapy based on the personal eccentricities of its founder. That he had a potent influence on those whom trained with him is fairly clear. The criticism most commonly leveled at Gestalt Therapy is its confrontational approach. Perls' style of therapy centered on provoking and confronting, and his trainees also used provoking and confronting -- often to an undesirable degree. Abe Levitsky, a San Francisco Gestaltist and former student of Fritz's, well summarized the problem: "Scorn was a weapon [Fritz] used, and unfortunately I feel that scorn has been incorporated by many Gestalt therapists and been perpetuated. But that has nothing to do with Gestalt Therapy. It simply had to do with Fritz's irascibility, where his style is imitated instead of his message."[3] I listened to several of Perl’s audiotapes, and I must say, none of them made any sense. They were the incoherent ramblings of a man too “loose.” He made the confusion between acting out like an ape or any other thing he could imagine, and freedom.

To what degree Perls' irascible, scornful style was passed on to second-generation therapists (Perls died in 1970) is difficult to know. We can, however, evaluate the degree to which his core ideas and techniques have been preserved and elaborated by perusing The Gestalt Journal in the 1980s and by examining the journal's Fall 1993 special issue commemorating the centennial of Fritz Perls' birth.

Perls' message was, in many ways, short and to the point. "Do your own thing," "Be here now," and "Lose your mind and come to your senses," are standard Gestalt commandments. Indeed, Fritz even wrote what he called the Gestalt Prayer, which he frequently used to begin his group therapy sessions: And by the way, after a patient finished with her time in the hot seat, he or she kissed Perls on the forehead; a mark of respect, it was believed.

and

Quote

If the sociocultural setting of the World War II era helps to explain Perls' passion for certain concepts, his personal life setting helps explain his anathema for others -- in particular, the "concepts" of past history, personal vulnerability, and neediness. Perls not only intellectually disavowed the validity of past causes, he would tolerate no mention of this subject from anyone. In his more rational moments on the subject, he contended that a person's past history could only elaborate upon what you could observe here and now in the present. In his less rational moments he would simply react to mention of past causes with anything from irritation to rage.

In fact, the issues of past causes and personal vulnerability represented Perls' unadmitted "Achilles heel." It is relevant at this point to mention some aspects of Perls' own primary relationships. By his own admission, his home life was unhappy. His parents hated each other.[31] His father regularly assaulted his mother. The father apparently had hatred to spare for young Frederick, whom he called "a piece of shit."[32] As a teenager, Fritz found more hatred at school, where the teachers were "unloving" and "cruel."[33] In this environment the youngster apparently developed what Jeffrey Masson describes as "an almost unfathomable lack of warm feeling for...his own family." Masson quotes Perls' single mention in his autobiography of his elder sister. "She was a clinger...She also had severe eye trouble... When I heard of her death in a concentration camp I did not mourn much."[34]

Perls -- who had hardened himself against his own childhood suffering -- was notorious for his intolerance of sensitive or needy men. Many an unsuspecting man got "zapped" in Perls' groups for the mere indiscretion of beginning a sentence with "I want" or "I need." His biographer, psychiatrist Martin Shepard, writes:

Fritz's harshness was invariably in direct proportion to his own neediness, and he was particularly needy at this time [the early 1960s, during his first stint at Esalen]. His attitude and bearing discouraged those who would place him in the role of a nurturing parent or a reassurer. He treated such requests...scornfully or with a logical argument; "What do you need me for?" he might ask. "What do you need your parents for? You've got eyes and ears and energy. What do you want to do?[35]

For the rest of the article, go here:

[primaltherapy.com]

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Re: Fritz Perls
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 03, 2018 04:05AM

Another quote from the Janov article cited above;

Quote

I took a seminar with Perls (and with Rogers, as well), and I was struck by the theories that psychologists construct that seem to evolve straight out of their personalities. As students, we mimicked Perls running the group, chain smoking, and saying, "Be an ashtray." "Be a couch." It was all whim and caprice. But it had to do with liberating feelings to some extent, which was something new in his epoch. Of course, after a group session where a woman was in the hot-seat, as I mentioned, there was the obligatory kiss on Perls' forehead or cheek. The master received his homage. It was more a show than therapy; an interesting show, because he was a showman, but serious scientific therapy was out of the question.

In its own way, Gestalt Therapy as practiced by Fritz Perls and those who carried on his work employs a form of hypnosis on its patients. The therapist is the central figure, the command center. The patient takes his cues about reality from this external figure rather than from the truths of his own experience contained in his own mind. He submits in the same childlike fashion of the hypnotic subject to the suggestions and authority of the therapist so that the subsequent experience is largely determined and defined for him. His reality is circumscribed by the larger presence of the therapist (in a sense by the larger, more powerful need of the therapist). If Perls' verbatim accounts are anything to go by, the Gestalt therapist tells you what to feel and what to do; when to do it and how to do it -- right down to selecting the words and images in which the patient is to express himself. How is this different from the hypnotist who tells you that you are sleepy when you are not, or the cult leader who manipulates his followers' need to be taken care of to suit his own need for control and power? In the case of Perls' therapy, the control and power are deceptively hidden behind a professed disinterest in either.

Hypnosis functions through its ability to make use of the split in consciousness which is the essence of neurosis. Gestalt Therapy does the same thing though not in precisely the same way. Perls acknowledges conflicts, polarities, divisions within the self, yet he conducts his therapy through games which he instigates and which not only illustrate the split but enhance it as well. It is part of the hypnotic process to convince the subject that something is happening which is not happening.

The goal of therapy in Gestalt is to develop people's awareness about what's really happening to them, what they really want, what they're really striving for, wherever the organism is looking, wherever its attention is drawn. The goal of therapy is to make this possible by somehow by...giving them back possession of themselves, possession over their own motives, finding out what is unconscious to them, what they're doing unbeknownst to themselves...take people who are conditioned and automatic and put them in some kind of aegis over themselves.[63]

In Gestalt Therapy, the patient is kept unconscious by being made aware; a disconnection that is sustained by his being given the illusion that he has become more conscious; that he is "in touch with thoughts, feelings, and sensations as they occur from moment to moment"; that he has lost his mind and come to his senses; that his "present, here-and-now experience constitutes the only reality." Just as in hypnosis, consciousness is restricted to provide a distraction against Pain and a barrier against the presence of the past. Consciousness is narrowed down to the present offshoots of repressed Pain in the form of projections in the here-and-now. The chief difference between hypnosis and Gestalt therapy is that hypnosis excludes awareness to avoid the unification of consciousness, whereas Gestalt excludes the unconscious to achieve the same end.

and

Quote

Perls called for total experience. Yet paradoxically, he did so while fencing off the past as forbidden territory, denouncing repression as invalid and memory as distorted. He wished to reject mental ruminations and awaken the person to life through feeling, yet he concentrated on awareness and understanding. He insisted on people living as they truly were, yet he constructed a therapy whose main features involved enacted feelings and role playing --roles which he scripted. He disavowed the unconscious while proclaiming that dreams, which arise in an unconscious state, are compilations of all that we are. Transference was denied, yet by his therapeutic staging and self-presentation as seer, Perls inevitably made himself into a symbolic figure and therefore, a focus of transferred feelings. To dismiss the phenomenon of transference was to suppress aspects of the total therapeutic experience, as was his sweeping claim that trauma was a fallacy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/2018 04:07AM by corboy.

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Re: Fritz Perls
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 03, 2018 04:14AM

Additional articles from Janov's website entitled Grand Delusions.

Read with care as Janov promoted his own Primal therapy. But - these may
be interesting reading, nonetheless.

In this series are 6 articles on hypnotherapy.

[www.primaltherapy.com]

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Re: Fritz Perls
Posted by: bakkagirl ()
Date: September 03, 2018 02:24PM

corboy,

Thank you so much for providing these resources. Of the Janov quotes you provided, these stood out for me, and vis a vis our discussion about respectful communication, and with regard to the positioning and agenda of the 'therapist'.

"I took a seminar with Perls (and with Rogers, as well), and I was struck by the theories that psychologists construct that seem to evolve straight out of their personalities. As students, we mimicked Perls running the group, chain smoking, and saying, "Be an ashtray." "Be a couch." It was all whim and caprice. But it had to do with liberating feelings to some extent, which was something new in his epoch. Of course, after a group session where a woman was in the hot-seat, as I mentioned, there was the obligatory kiss on Perls' forehead or cheek. The master received his homage. It was more a show than therapy; an interesting show, because he was a showman, but serious scientific therapy was out of the question."

In Gestalt Therapy, the patient is kept unconscious by being made aware; a disconnection that is sustained by his being given the illusion that he has become more conscious; that he is "in touch with thoughts, feelings, and sensations as they occur from moment to moment"; that he has lost his mind and come to his senses; that his "present, here-and-now experience constitutes the only reality." Just as in hypnosis, consciousness is restricted to provide a distraction against Pain and a barrier against the presence of the past. Consciousness is narrowed down to the present offshoots of repressed Pain in the form of projections in the here-and-now. The chief difference between hypnosis and Gestalt therapy is that hypnosis excludes awareness to avoid the unification of consciousness, whereas Gestalt excludes the unconscious to achieve the same end. [bold text, italics, mine]

With regard to psychological theories being an extension of the therapist's personality, I watched several interviews of Carl Rogers, who I think is best known for evolving a patient-centric model, and the therapeutic imperative of holding "positive regard" for the client.

Based on these viewings, it is hard to imagine a 'colder' personality. One might suspect that Rogers is counseling others to regard patients in a manner that he, personally, finds very challenging.

With regard to Gestalt Therapy, and the patient being provided with the illusion that he has become more conscious of his thoughts, and being in the moment, well, this sounds just like what many describe as happening in EST/Landmark training.

Frankly, I see a lot of the same thing in the coaching field, i.e. an emphasis on the coachee achieving the big, aha, wake-up moments; that I know, rarely lead to meaningful changes.

I don't know quite how to describe it, but my experience of people who have gone down this rabbit hole is that they are strangely disconnected from themselves and others, almost pathologically so, and they become VERY irritable when one points this out.

Really sad when a pathology IS the treatment, or coaching modality.

bakkagirl

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