Hi lightwolf,

The thing is that I'm already tired of it. Right now, I'm just trying to get her to tell me exactly what it is that she wants from me so I can do it (aside from enrolling) and get her out of my hair. She knows nothing about what's going on in my life (I've never been this stressed in my life before), and I don't know anything about what's going on in her life. The difference between us seems to be that I don't care what's happening in her life, and I don't feel any motivation to tell her what's going on in mine.

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lightwolf
These exchanges are fun now, but you will, if you are like me, tire of them eventually. There is only so much of this blather a person can take. Where I'm at is that I still see my Lekkie friend, and she shares her stuff, I say "thank you for sharing" and that's that. I don't discuss or debate because that just goes nowhere. Once in a great while I'll plant a seed of doubt, but I don't make a big deal about it. The lines of communication are open, and some day, MAYBE, she'll want to hear, but I'm not betting on it. If it does happen though, then she has someone to go to. In the mean time, I just focus on doing things we can enjoy together, and tuning out the Lekkie speak.

I don't know if I'm able to listen to the landmark language at all. And she realizes this. In one of her emails, she copied and pasted some of the earlier things she had said, and mentioned that she tried to take out as much of the landmark language as she could, because I'd told her I wouldn't speak to her at all unless she spoke English. I think the problem that I'm hitting right now, in trying to decide whether or not I want to keep this up, is that I'm insanely stressed right now, and am having problems in every other area of my life (Don't worry--no matter how stressed I am, there is nothing on the face of this earth that could convince me to go to Landmark). So I'm trying to figure out if it's less stressful for me just to cut her off entirely (again<-- we haven't said anything, seen each other, or had any contact in the last month and a half), or to try to figure out some middle ground where we can still be friendly, knowing that it'll most likely be a bit awkward.

leftocast,

Only you can decide this, and I think you're doing a good job trying to figure it out. I'm not one to flippantly encourage someone to cut ties, but I just wonder, if you're tired of it, and stressed, and she isn't that important to you, why add to your stress? You have to take care of yourself first.

I highly doubt there is anything tangible she wants from you. It should be that easy! There is probably something intagible she wants though, and that is some sort of validation. You're close to it here:

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leftcoast8
The difference between us seems to be that I don't care what's happening in her life, and I don't feel any motivation to tell her what's going on in mine.

This is the exact situation I am in. What I think drives my friend mad is exactly this attitude. Landmark commandment #7 (I think) says something like: communicate in such a way as to leave people "touched, moved and inspired." That's what she wants I think, for you to feel that way about her and her life. You don't. It's driving her nuts (the program says you should, you don't, it does not compute, it does not compute!!). She wants to feel that way about you even though that would seem out of place right now, with all the problems you are facing.

Dealing with a Lekkie is emotionally exhausting. Unless you have a good support system to fill you up, and the rest of your life doesn't drain all your energy (sounds like it does right now), then this may be a distraction you don't need right now.

Nothing need be forever. If you cut her off now, there's always a day down the road, when you are in better shape, that you can get back in.

-lightwolf

Hi leftcoast8,

This is probably too late to help you in your predicament. I just found these forums today and have been reading a lot of the threads.

However, having done the Landmark Forum, here's my 2 cents worth for anyone else finding themselves in a similar predicament.

For background info, I did the Landmark Forum myself quite recently, mainly out of curiosity.. I read a lot good and bad beforehand so went into it having made what I considered an informed desicion, well prepared, with my guard up. I walked away happy and motivated by a few snippets of common sense (that incidentally i don't think were anything new to me, in principal) and am glad I did it, but on the whole spent a lot of the time worrying what it was everyone was 'getting' that I wasn't, I didn't bring others into the fold, I didn't 'phone a friend', and after initial disappointment at my apparent lack of 'transformation', my life and relationships with those around me have more or less continued as they were previously (but fulfilled in the knowledge that my curiosity is satisfied :wink: ).

The main point I want to make is that I think the girl's main objective is to get 'complete' with you. (In straight English, this means admit her wrongdoing, you accept her apology and ideally forgive her, essentially so she no longer feels bad about it). 'Completing your past' is a big cornerstone of the landmark forum. But by questioning her (provoking her, egging her on, whatever you want to call it) she is not getting complete with you. She therefore persists and tries harder to get complete with you in a way that 'moves, touches and inspires' you. If you actually just accept what she says (i.e. yes, you agree, she wronged you, thank you apology accepted, full stop) instead of challenge her, she then gets complete.
This might be dishonest of you ('inauthentic' in the LM lingo) for you to tell her that, but it could go a long way to getting her off your back!

Additionally, she also states:

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I will never give up on whatever relationship we have (whether it's never talking again, or becoming friends again).

Call her on this. Hold her to her word. Tell her you 'choose' never to talk again, and that is what you are 'committed' to. (again, LM speak - she can not argue with that). (If, of course, that is what you want!)

All of the above is assuming (as was the overwhelming tone of your posts) that you don't actually care about her or want anything to do with her. But it gets a bit trickier in a situation where it is someone close to you, who you actually respect or care about or love and want in your life... :? There, the path is not so clear.

However, this does not tackle the issue of recruitment, or 'enrollment', and whether she will be satisfied being 'complete' without further attempting to enroll you. I can identify almost every word she wrote as Landmark speak in some form. Somewhere along the thread, it was mentioned that she was being sneaky and manipulative. From my experience of Landmark, this is probably not conscious manipulation on her part, rather it's what she truly believes. Any conscious manipulation is more likely to be coming from further up the landmark ladder, she's simply a parrot doing as she's been told. However, having done no further courses myself, I cannot comment on what is encouraged in the other courses she has been doing... (perhaps they have special sneakiness seminars.. :lol: )

Should the enrollment attempts continue, a couple of points that may be useful in your defence:

What was impressed upon me during my experience (and often given in reply to participants who complained that they had been pressured by friends to be at the forum) was that "You don't have to do anything you don't want to do". So don't. State that you 'choose' not to and stick to it ('be committed to your word', to use the lingo).

Similarly, we were encouraged to treat the forum as a jacket and told to "try it on..." "If you don't like the new one you can always take it off and put the old one back on again". However, we don't go around the shops trying on jackets we wouldn't be seen dead in! So if you don't like the look of it, don't try it on in the first place!

I hope this is helpful. I also hope you don't think my use of Landmark 'speak' or suggesting you use it in your defence is a subtle attempt to try to enroll you without you knowing it! :wink: It's purely to give you the option of fighting fire with fire - communicating with language that might actually have the desired effect and finally get through to them!!!

All the best!

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carrot

For background info, I did the Landmark Forum myself quite recently, mainly out of curiosity.

"Curiosity" is the number one reason people attend. That's the reason they try to maintain a certain mystery or cachet, telling people not to reveal what goes on or describe the "courses" to outsiders.

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I read a lot good and bad beforehand so went into it having made what I considered an informed desicion, well prepared, with my guard up. I walked away happy and motivated by a few snippets of common sense (that incidentally i don't think were anything new to me, in principal) and am glad I did it, but on the whole spent a lot of the time worrying what it was everyone was 'getting' that I wasn't,

...Even though you'd probably read about the peer pressure, group dynamics, and the Festinger stuff that proved most people will go along with others just to "fit in" when their own ears and eyes are telling them what is proposed is not true?

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The main point I want to make is that I think the girl's main objective is to get 'complete' with you. (In straight English, this means admit her wrongdoing, you accept her apology and ideally forgive her, essentially so she no longer feels bad about it). 'Completing your past' is a big cornerstone of the landmark forum.

You might be interested to know that "completing the past" is something that Werner Erhard adopted from scientology, a "problem" for which they offer expensive "therapy." Though most people would like to be able to "erase" troubling memories or wipe the slate clean or obliterate those parts of their history they would rather forget, the "technology" for doing so was some snake-oil L. Ron Hubbard pretended to offer.

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All of the above is assuming (as was the overwhelming tone of your posts) that you don't actually care about her or want anything to do with her. But it gets a bit trickier in a situation where it is someone close to you, who you actually respect or care about or love and want in your life... :? There, the path is not so clear.

Well, yes....and this is where Landmark "technology" really screws things up between people.

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What was impressed upon me during my experience (and often given in reply to participants who complained that they had been pressured by friends to be at the forum) was that "You don't have to do anything you don't want to do". So don't. State that you 'choose' not to and stick to it ('be committed to your word', to use the lingo).

It's not quite so simple when dealing with friends, family, working acquaintences, bosses, etc., etc. and Landmarkers know this. They use "relationships" as leverage, and I imagine you know this also.




Ellen

carrot wrote:

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In straight English, this means admit her wrongdoing, you accept her apology and ideally forgive her, essentially so she no longer feels bad about it). 'Completing your past' is a big cornerstone of the landmark forum. But by questioning her (provoking her, egging her on, whatever you want to call it) she is not getting complete with you. She therefore persists and tries harder to get complete with you in a way that 'moves, touches and inspires' you. If you actually just accept what she says (i.e. yes, you agree, she wronged you, thank you apology accepted, full stop) instead of challenge her, she then gets complete.

Forgiveness is not about making the other person feel better. This woman is stuck in believing she is "right"; if she wasn't, she would stop persisting in trying to "get complete."

i did landmark forum's introduction course.the good thing is you meet lots of different people.good because most of the participants are freshers.heh heh heh.the bad thing is the leaders try to brainwash you.i went open about my problems and the leader said "" YOU WORK HARD TO FAIL "".

i want to know what it means.the leader never really explained it.

have anyone of u who have participated in landmark forum come across the above quote. can u tell me what it means.

thanks :-) :roll:

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toby111
i did landmark forum's introduction course.the good thing is you meet lots of different people.good because most of the participants are freshers.heh heh heh.the bad thing is the leaders try to brainwash you.i went open about my problems and the leader said "" YOU WORK HARD TO FAIL "".

i want to know what it means.the leader never really explained it.

have anyone of u who have participated in landmark forum come across the above quote. can u tell me what it means.

thanks :-) :roll:

It's an attempt to hustle you into thinking that if you join their "program" and take their "courses," you'll no longer fail. It's psychologically manipulative trickery. If sun spots caused your computer to crash on the day you were supposed to submit your application, they'd make it your fault. They want to make you feel bad about your past so that you'll seek a way to rectify it, "cure yourself of yourself," and feel better. They are hoping this dig gets to you and you immediately leap to them for the solution. Nothing but an old ad man's trick; give you a reason to feel bad, feel inferior, or feel worried, and then offer themselves up as the solution to your "problem." You might well be suffering some sort of neurosis that gets in the way of your success but these people aren't the ones to diagnose or treat whatever it is that is bothering you, if something is indeed bothering you. It sounds like a typical throw-away line that they use on everybody. Most people would respond to this kind of assessment from a stranger with worry. They are full of tricks. Watch out.

(What's a "fresher?" You might want to note that the Landmark hierarchy use lower-level Landmark females as lures or bait. They may tell you they are "sharing" Landmark or "sharing" their "transformation" but they're really attempting to recruit you using the "possibility" of sex.)



Ellen

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toby111
i went open about my problems and the leader said "" YOU WORK HARD TO FAIL "".

i want to know what it means.the leader never really explained it.

have anyone of u who have participated in landmark forum come across the above quote. can u tell me what it means.

thanks :-) :roll:

They never explain what they mean, and if you ask them directly to explain what they mean they have several intensely dishonest ( by dishonest I mean that they have no intention of "getting complete" on their definitions, nor do they have any intention of getting complete on why they won't get complete because they are in the listening of not getting complete becuase by not getting complete they leave you in a confusion state where they can run a number of interesting processes on your unconscious mind.... ) dodges, or evasions, the first being "we'll answer that later"... and if you persist and insist, they'll turn it into a racket you're running about your need for attention or your need to confront authority because you have anger issues (frankly, it appears that many people in this organization have [b:cd1e2d6037] major anger issues themselves [/b:cd1e2d6037] judging from the ease with which they mete out ritualistic abuse, intimidation, and emotional hazing to anyone who dares not obediently [b:cd1e2d6037] get with the program [/b:cd1e2d6037] ... when dealing with this organizations, your mantra must be [b:cd1e2d6037] define your terms, define your terms, define your terms [/b:cd1e2d6037] ...

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elena

(What's a "fresher?"

Well in England it means a student in their first year of university- aged about 18 or 19. (same as a 'freshman'?)

You are right though, some of these young ladies could be landmark 'plants.'
Love
Kath

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You might well be suffering some sort of neurosis that gets in the way of your success but these people aren't the ones to diagnose or treat whatever it is that is bothering you, if something is indeed bothering you.

To say the least. I engaged one of their in-the-pipeline trainees about the unconscious mind, unconscious mental processes, whether there [b:00439d111e] was [/b:00439d111e] an unconscious mind , a la Sigmund Freud or Milton Erikson, or Erik Erikson, oe whomever... now this was truly startling... [b:00439d111e] she did not have the slightest idea as the discussion had never occurred in that setting ! [/b:00439d111e] ... she didn't know.. unconscious mind ? She assumed that everything was a function of conscious, decarative, will driven thought processes... that's what they taught her and everything... her position was, gosh, isn't that interesting, but I'm so sorry I don't know what to do with that so it looks like we don't have a lot to discuss... it was a stunning revelation to me about the limits of their knowledge, and more, [b:00439d111e] their attitudes towards the limits of their knowledge [/b:00439d111e] ... like, that's not what we do here so that's not what we do here... although it [b:00439d111e] IS [/b:00439d111e] what they do there but in this wildly overgeneral, ass backwards way... because they think a full frontal assault on (often unconscious, meaning formed in early childhood) ego defenses [b:00439d111e] is all it takes, without careful specific attention to the material protected by thos ego defenses [/b:00439d111e] ... which is a nasty, unpredictable, and simplistic way to proceed.