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So yeah some of the tech I really think is valuable for people, what I'm really against is how the courses are run (squashing independent inquiry and derailing argumentative conversation) and traps built into the tech (disabling critical thinking) and pumping up the value of the technology (promoting zealotry.) Their policy of suing anyone who says anything bad and trying to close down discussion on the internet really stinks too.

Think about the psychology of their stance.... does it not sound like the way a young child copes with disagreement ? Not just any young child, but a self important, overindulged, spoiled brat ?

How does the Little Napoleon typically respond to criticism, the four year old boy who cannot tolerate hearing the word "NO" ? Little Napoleon detests those who will not show comity, be sweet and tractible, agree with everything said and offer no resistance.... yes, Young Master.... you are absolutely correct !

Which is all the more hilarious as my trainer paused in one of his diatribes for a Moment Of Illumination....he shares this insight with us, "the children" (I was to learn in the Six Day course, after being bombarded with their pornography spectacular.... ah, who knew such variety existed ?... that the unenlightened, the unprocessed, I suppose after being processed one became Velveeta or something.... that the basic trainess, the innocent ESTholes were known to the management as "the children".... the children ? WTF ? THE CHILDREN ?.... ).... so he shares this uummmm, insight with us.... "have you noticed that the RACKET of senior management is that they are UNCONFRONTABLE ???"...... yesssss, I may have noticed that.....so he launches into this whole shebang about how the top dogs are not confrontable and this is a terrible thing that screws up organizations and makes them unhappy and dysfunctional.... yesss...... we got that.... please go on.... then he turns on a dime and reminds us "children" that "YOU ARE NOT HERE TO HANDLE THE TRAINER !!!!!!"......... ok, let's run this by our logic checker.... Proposition A. Not confronting boss= bad organization, and B. confronting trainer= bad conduct, ergo C. wacked out double bind, confronting authority figure is GOODBAD or was it BADGOOD ? Did a bunch of guys eat psychedelic mushrooms and read George Orwell ? Were they completely oblivious to their contradictions ? Was a logical bind part of a hypnotic induction technique to leave the room so futzled that they eventually accept anything, no matter how ridiculous or half baked ? Were they just idiots ?

But. boy o boy did they need to be right ..... they needed, they needed so neurotically, so obsessively, with such unreasonable determination... ME RIGHT !!! ME RIGHT!!! ME RIGHT!!! ME TRAINER!!!..... matched only by their other diatribe.... "have you noticed how people NEED TO BE RIGHT???!!!" .... yesssss.... we noticed.....

That's exactly right and it's a thought I had in the back of my mind throughout the courses, "if they're saying that always wanting to be right and fighting against being wrong is a limitation on your life, then what's with all the bullying? What's with keeping people up in front of the microphone for half an hour badgering them with 'you're running a racket! You're trying to be right right now!'" But you're being told remember that that's a filter, that's just your already always listening limiting your listening, preventing you from getting it. And it took me a long time to be able to really listen to my own thinking again, not blocking what my own judgment says.

It's a huge contradiction, and that's one of the traps I was talking about in the tech, where you're stuck in this frame of mind where "Oh I can't criticise the leader, because that would be me running my racket, trying to be right, trying to look good" so it's a system of introspection where they're constantly turning it back onto you, forcing you to look at yourself so that you can't see them and what they're doing. So it's tech that works, is handy and gets good results (and when you boil it all down, it's a bunch of concepts that are not exclusive to LEC, they just have their own spin on it), but it is also taught and carefully crafted to keep people in the fold and to keep people from thinking critically about the organisation.

And what's worse is that you can't talk to even other people taking the course, because they're also suppressing their filters, and you'll be met with the same thing "that's your racket!" So you're in fact talking to mini Landmark forum leaders. And I was one of them! I told many many people when they were having conflicts exactly those things (and it felt good too, I got off on that to be 'curing people's rackets.' it's not hard to see why Landmark forum leaders do what they do. It's a massive power trip, man!)

Taking off from what leftcoast started this thread with, a superficially humble and contrite letter "taking responsibility," and tracing it to the last few posts and my own experience with my Lekkie friend, I find that one of the "transformations" that must occur in the ILP or SELP program is that the enlightenment hungry souls learn the company racket: "it's not about me, it's about you." I hear a lot of talk about power -- my power!! Landmark commandment #1 be damned, the advanced in Landmark seem to have an insatiable need to be right, and learn to reflect criticism back. I have experienced this numerous times, and interestingly the strongest resistance seems to come to the smallest criticisms -- a mirror reflection of the habit of the strongest "apologies" (I find their apologies very hollow I have to say) come to the smallest of errors. I have heard "it's not about me, it's about you" more times than I can count.

While I know that this isn't visible up front, or even while you're in it, once again we learn that the LGATs simply offer a trade: get rid of YOUR rackets, filters, philosophy, thinking skills and take on OUR rackets, filters, philosophy and "thinking" skills (admittedly their thinking skills are pretty thin!). This doesn't sound like freedom or enlightenment to me.

Congrats to you who saw through it and got out.

-lightwolf

The other contradiction I have observed concernes the "Socratic inquiry." I hear Landmark say their training is just Socratic inquiry, asking questions to "challenge our norms," etc., etc. We've heard the show. Now I'll bet the house that their version of Socratic inquiry is a poor version of the true technique, but have you ever tried to "inquire" their ideology in a similar way? Not just at the center, but individual Lekkies? The stories in the database of those who have gone through the training, and of those in this forum, show what happens. It is not tolerated. How dare you question us, you're running a RACKET! Skepticism is your winning formula! There is no facility or tolerance given to "Socratic inquiry" of their new consciousness.

How can credibility be given to those who are consistently contradictory?

-lightwolf

I AM AN EX-STAFF MEMBER FOR LEC. I DID THE ENTIRE CURRICULUM, SUPPERVISED AND LED VARIOUS PROGRAMS FOR THEIR ORGANIZATION. UNFORTUNATELY THE "TRAINING" & "TECHNOLOGY" THAT LEC PROVIDES MAKE SOMEONE BECOME MORE AND MORE DEPENDENT TO THE ORGANIZATION. I TOOK THE LANDMARK FORUM BECAUSE A SCHOOLMATE SAID IT WOULD BE GOOD. IF I KNEW WHAT I KNOW NOW I NEVER WOULD HAVE WENT THAT TUESDAY NIGHT. I ENTERED A PSYCHOSIS AND TRAVELED DOWNWARD TO THE POINT I THOUGHT NOTHING OF MYSELF, MY HEALTH AND ANY PERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS THAT WERE NOT LANDMARK RELATED. I ISOLATED MY FAMILY AND FRIENDS. IT BECAME A WORLD OF THE "TRANFORMED" VS. THE "UNTRANSFORMED". I ALMOST LOST EVERYTHING. I HAVE BEEN AWAY FOR SOME TIME NOW AND STILL I AM UNDER THE EFFECT OF THE 5 YEARS I GAVE TO THIS ORGANIZATION.

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2BFREEFROMLEC
I AM AN EX-STAFF MEMBER FOR LEC.

2BFREE - with full respect, you are now, and always have been, free from LEC. You are displaying that by coming here. Free thought = freedom.

Welcome

Liberation is always difficult. A great effort was expended to shape your thinking. You were "re-created" to fit their idea of a proper human shape. Perhaps you grew to the point that being a perfect bonsai tree no longer fit who you have become. The bonsai is a lovely thing that can only flourish in an artificial environment. The gardeners had convinced their garden of bonsai trees that they were a mighty forest... but some of the trees began to suspect otherwise. Those that escaped the manicured garden and found fertile soil now must experience the long process of real growth in a natural environment. To the bonsai this first seemed exceedingly strange, accustomed as it was to having every detail of its life managed by the gardners. As the tree grew it discovered a need for many nutrients that had been lacking in the fertilizer mix it was carefully fed, that weather patterns were richer, more complex than anything in the safe but suffocating greenhouse. Freedom, it now seemed, involved constant thinking for oneself, knowing that each day would be different, that one could not depend on the dreary security of heaing the gardners chant the same formulas day in and day out. Life would be new again, thrilling and unknowable. Words took on a new richness and depth. Personal interactions were multifacted, filled with complications and unknowns.... painful at first, like new shoes that wear blisters on sensitive feet... then far more genuine than any of the programmed intimacy of bonsai trees crowded together in the carbon dioxide rich atmosphere of a controlled environment.... freedom was not so easy after all, it had its costs... but compared to living one's life in a factory of synthetic perfection ?

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nutrino
But. boy o boy did they need to be right ..... they needed, they needed so neurotically, so obsessively, with such unreasonable determination... ME RIGHT !!! ME RIGHT!!! ME RIGHT!!! ME TRAINER!!!..... matched only by their other diatribe.... "have you noticed how people NEED TO BE RIGHT???!!!" .... yesssss.... we noticed.....

Yesssssss indeed. Like Dynamix, I too started to notice and question the hypocrisy of the "wise" teachers/founder. They did not practice what they preached. Why did I stay with it then, I've wondered? I remember consciously putting aside my doubts, in order to keep "moving forward". I "moved forward" in blind faith (ugh). It disturbed me that while I was more than willing to put my beliefs on the table for examination (and extermination!) I knew that their beliefs (the ones I was being conned to adopt) were NOT to be questioned, examined, rejected. It was a one-way street. This infuriates me now. It bothered me then but I didn't let my "stuff" (ha! can't recall the jargon word here) stop me from "moving forward". Yes, that's it. I dismissed my doubts because I was being programmed to do that. I do remember feeling some confusion, amidst the "highs".

The other part of this thread, starting with leftcoast8's friend's emails, has helped me understand (hindsight) why I was feeling distrust and unease when my sister emerged from her programming. There was a phoney, dishonest, scripted hollowness to her "warmth" and "closeness" to me. At the time, I was conflicted, wanting to BELIEVE her and also feeling very OFF about [i:da0a26f345]something.[/i:da0a26f345] I couldn't put my finger on it, but more than trusting her, I DIStrusted her and kept my distance. I see why now.

Things deteriorated from there. For about 3 years I kept trying to find my (old) sister inside the new persona. Conflict was all I found. We emailed a bunch, and I could NEVER NEVER make sense of what she was saying. I see why now. She talked in circles, in jargon, contradicted herself and made no sense. I finally realized that it's impossible for us to communicate and I've ceased trying. My (old/real) sister seems to be gone. Thanks to the marvelous technology of lgats. She says we operate on totally different planes. Yes, we do. And I have a special hatred for lgats.

Oh my goodness...
The emailing just won't stop! Granted, yes, I probably egg it on a little when I tell her that no, I don't believe you care about me and No, you aren't making any sense, and No, there isn't anything you can do to show me that you care. (All issues that she's trying to convince me of.)
She's saying things like:

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If you want to test my word, give me a test, my integrity is up for it. In fact that actually sounds like fun (strange I know).

when I tell her I don't believe her.

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There is no need for you to decipher anything. If you aren't sure what I'm saying or what I mean by something please ask and I will explain it better to you.

when I say that she makes no sense.

And the granddaddy of them all when I criticize landmark:

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I wish you could truly see how amazing my life has become since I did Landmark Education. I have things in my life right now that I would never have if I had not done Landmark Education.

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You have no idea how much it hurts me to know that the person who was my best friend, can't see how amazing my life is. Can't see how much I love my life. And can't be fucking happy for me. My life is amazing and taking off, and everyday it's getting better. That's what I want for your life too. And you want to know the best part? You do NOT have to do Landmark Education to have it! I hated listening to you complain...You're life is so much more than that. You are so lucky to have the things in your life that you have, I wish you would have (and would) share them with me. You having amazing things is not going to make me upset or jealous; I'd be happy to know that your life is incredible.

It's all madness!! And now, she wants to call me so we can discuss all of this! What am I supposed to do now?

Hi leftcoast,

It's hard for the cat to leave the mouse alone, itsn't it? I'm sure you see that you're sort of playing with her here by continuing to challenge her messages to you. But, I understand, I've done it too. Sort of like the train wreck comment you made before. If it really bugs you, you can make this stop -- anytime you choose to.

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leftcoast8

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I wish you could truly see how amazing my life has become since I did Landmark Education. I have things in my life right now that I would never have if I had not done Landmark Education.

Post hoc analysis at work here. She doesn't really [b:b0121188f8]know [/b:b0121188f8]this, but she certainly [b:b0121188f8]believes [/b:b0121188f8]it. Belief is a powerful thing.

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leftcoast8

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You have no idea how much it hurts me to know that the person who was my best friend, can't see how amazing my life is. Can't see how much I love my life. And can't be fucking happy for me. My life is amazing and taking off, and everyday it's getting better. That's what I want for your life too. And you want to know the best part? You do NOT have to do Landmark Education to have it! I hated listening to you complain...You're life is so much more than that. You are so lucky to have the things in your life that you have, I wish you would have (and would) share them with me. You having amazing things is not going to make me upset or jealous; I'd be happy to know that your life is incredible.

Can see how brain-pithed she is, though. Not much to say here except :roll: . "You do NOT have to do Landmark Education to have it! " -- doesn't this sort of contradict what was said above? Outside of this statement, how many of us have heard the same thing? Lots I bet.


These exchanges are fun now, but you will, if you are like me, tire of them eventually. There is only so much of this blather a person can take. Where I'm at is that I still see my Lekkie friend, and she shares her stuff, I say "thank you for sharing" and that's that. I don't discuss or debate because that just goes nowhere. Once in a great while I'll plant a seed of doubt, but I don't make a big deal about it. The lines of communication are open, and some day, MAYBE, she'll want to hear, but I'm not betting on it. If it does happen though, then she has someone to go to. In the mean time, I just focus on doing things we can enjoy together, and tuning out the Lekkie speak.

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leftcoast8
What am I supposed to do now?

You say you want out of this, but your actions say you want to stay in this, at least for now. That tension is somewhat natural -- the Lekkie speak is so intolerable that it makes even the most devoted friend want to run. I think you really need to choose one, however. That's what I think you need to do now. If you want to stay in, then let her call, and but don't get into a discussion. Just thank her for her viewpoints and go on to something else. The discussion is the bait. Stay off that hook. It doesn't help anyway -- you speak different languages now, and the understanding of language is no longer there.

This is what LGATs do to people and relationships.

Sad.

-lightwolf