critical_thinker said:

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Sometimes a message that is for our own good is said in terms we don't want to hear.

[b:16c198fb96]Is there some irony in the fact that you won't hear or even consider the message that people on this thread are trying to convey to you?[/b:16c198fb96]

This website, which has an incredible archive, receives more complaints about Landmark than any other group.

Take a look at this article to find out more about this organization you are so quick to defend: Introduction to the Landmark Education litigation archive at [www.culteducation.com]

In it, you will see that when push came to shove, Landmark, rather than have its workings exposed during discovery, asked the Court to dismiss with prejudice its own complaint in a court case it had instituted against Rick Ross.

As a result, Landmark will never again be able to bring its meritless claims against Rick Ross. :D

The archive on this website remains one of the best sources of what this group is about.

The stories told on these message boards are testimony to the damage this group does.

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critical_thinker

Sometimes a message that is for our own good is said in terms we don't want to hear. Wouldn't you rather have had your father and mother confront you as a child, rather than let you become a convicted, felonious tortfeasor?

Is that who you blame for the fact that you got involved in a cult? Your mother and father? Because they didn't confront you as a child?

Glam

Go read LE's reply that I posted via Google translation. The woman says she got value out of the conversation.

Regarding not bringing lawsuits, we all know that was due to a change in law (Donato versus Moldow), whereby Rick Ross amended his defense to the tort of libel to include the Communications Decency Act. If Rick were concerned about the truth, he would not have amended. Furthermore, he would take responsibility for the posts that he moderates. Instead, he lets other people call it a cult while he himself in publications says that it is not a cult. (That's why I call him Trick Ross.)

I'm saying, as an example Rick can relate to, that his own life may not have turned out the way it did because his parents either did not confront him or they tried to control him (and he rebelled), and Rick got even by becoming a felon and by stiffing his mother for a loan. It's just an example of the control and domination paradigm in action, for which neither parent nor child was willing to take responsibility. I know this is upsetting, but I'm trying to give you a taste of the Landmark Forum, and why the French woman appeared upset in the moment, but clearly it was a great breakthrough for her from her statements outside the video.

Will Rick Ross ever have such a breakthrough for himself or will he simply claim this is a personal attack? It takes something to engage in this kind of inquiry. (I know, some of you think I am blaming the victim, Rick Ross.) Try on another possibility.

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critical_thinker
Go read LE's reply that I posted via Google translation. The woman says she got value out of the conversation.

Regarding not bringing lawsuits, we all know that was due to a change in law (Donato versus Moldow), whereby Rick Ross amended his defense to the tort of libel to include the Communications Decency Act. If Rick were concerned about the truth, he would not have amended. Furthermore, he would take responsibility for the posts that he moderates. Instead, he lets other people call it a cult while he himself in publications says that it is not a cult. (That's why I call him Trick Ross.)

I'm saying, as an example Rick can relate to, that his own life may not have turned out the way it did because his parents either did not confront him or they tried to control him (and he rebelled), and Rick got even by becoming a felon and by stiffing his mother for a loan. It's just an example of the control and domination paradigm in action, for which neither parent nor child was willing to take responsibility. I know this is upsetting, but I'm trying to give you a taste of the Landmark Forum, and why the French woman appeared upset in the moment, but clearly it was a great breakthrough for her from her statements outside the video.

Will Rick Ross ever have such a breakthrough for himself or will he simply claim this is a personal attack? It takes something to engage in this kind of inquiry. (I know, some of you think I am blaming the victim, Rick Ross.) Try on another possibility.

This is so lame you must have had to hold your own nose while you typed it. You are carrying the scientology/Landmark banner with this stuff you haul out about Rick Ross. In fact, you sound just like a scientologist inanely screaming: "What are your crimes, what are your crimes." You would like to be able to discredit the mountains of criticism against Landmark, the legions of witnesses to the idiotic programs, and the thirty years of bad press and comedic disparagement, but all you've got to throw are these ancient bits of material against Rick Ross. You may fool a few gullible types within the confines of the Landmark hotel-ballroom "programming" but you'd be hard pressed to find a sympathetic listener here.


As if, "critical thinker(not)."


Ellen

Think I'll de-construct this silly post, just for the heck of it:

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critical_thinker
Go read LE's reply that I posted via Google translation. The woman says she got value out of the conversation.

~Got value~ is a MEME. Can't you think of some other phrase to express your thoughts? (Not if you're brainwashed or infected with memes evidently.)

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Regarding not bringing lawsuits, we all know that was due to a change in law (Donato versus Moldow), whereby Rick Ross amended his defense to the tort of libel to include the Communications Decency Act. If Rick were concerned about the truth, he would not have amended.

Where do you get these hare-brained ideas? Defenders of Landmark must be willing to say just about anything, no matter how idiotic.

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Furthermore, he would take responsibility for the posts that he moderates.

What??? People at Landmark stupidly ~take responsibility~ for all sorts of things that are not in their purview. Are you really suggesting someone who maintains a message board take "responsibility" (apparently edit or censor) for the statements of others? What on earth can you be thinking, man? Do you even tip your hat to the idea of free speech?

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Instead, he lets other people call it a cult while he himself in publications says that it is not a cult. (That's why I call him Trick Ross.)

It's a CULT, CULT, CULT. Get over it.

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I'm saying, as an example Rick can relate to, that his own life may not have turned out the way it did because his parents either did not confront him or they tried to control him (and he rebelled), and Rick got even by becoming a felon and by stiffing his mother for a loan. It's just an example of the control and domination paradigm in action, for which neither parent nor child was willing to take responsibility.

Oh lordy, the ~take responsibility~ meme again. How on God's green earth would you know how or why someone does something or anything or doesn't do something or anything? You sound like the worst sort of amateur psychologist. Not even...but some Landmarky version of psy-co-lo-gy by way of L. Ron Hubbard and Alexander Everett.

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I know this is upsetting, but I'm trying to give you a taste of the Landmark Forum, and why the French woman appeared upset in the moment, but clearly it was a great breakthrough for her from her statements outside the video.

Not really. Silly, but not ~upsetting.~ And thanks for the "taste" of the garbage Landmark Forum, which is even sillier than that. (Oh and you're infected with the ~breakthrough~ meme which Werner contracted from getting too close to that old windbag L. Ron Hubbard.)

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Will Rick Ross ever have such a breakthrough for himself or will he simply claim this is a personal attack? It takes something to engage in this kind of inquiry. (I know, some of you think I am blaming the victim, Rick Ross.) Try on another possibility.

Lovely. You've assumed the ~inquiry~ mantle. You look like a fool with the silly thing draped around your shoulders. Kind of like Erhard likening himself to Aristotle or God.


Thanks for your input,


Ellen

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rrmoderator
truambar:

So you thought it was funny when the Forum leader said the mother as an "asshole" and also mocked her while she was crying?

Did you also think it was humorous when the Forum leader discussed how the mother might get cancer or commit suicide?

Which part was the most funny to you?

What did you think about the Landmark volunteer scrubbing the bathroom?

Why would a for-profit privately owned company have volunteers?

See [www.culteducation.com]

BTW--you didn't answer my question, are you planning on taking additional courses from Landmark?

Quite obviously, the Forum leader went too far, at least for American culture. Maybe in France he could get away with that. But Landmark doesn't have a program in France any more. My forum leader and the couple of other forum leaders I've seen were far more gentle with their probing. The whole point of the conversation at the mike, by the way, is to get you to do some introspection, understand things you do or don't do, and move beyond those behaviors by understanding them thoroughly. Only some of the people choose to go to the microphone, but everyone's there to listen and virtually everyone finds something useful in what they hear. A fact that was lost in the French documentary, and one that would have been overlooked by the reporter, is that the person at the mike feels well-supported by everyone in the room, including the forum leader. I've watched a few very shy people get up there and really open up, and when they leave the forum, they are bold, loud, and happy about it.

Given that you seem not to have caught it, the leader's suggestion that the woman catch cancer or commit suicide was largely-writ hyperbole. The conversation was obviously cut short to sensationalize the video. These people were there to sell ad space.

I had no problem with a Landmark volunteer scrubbing a bathroom, if it needed to be scrubbed. Most of the courses themselves are put on (yes, taught) by Landmark volunteers, who are in turn assisted by other volunteers, and all of these people give their time and do whatever looks like it needs doing because they feel genuinely grateful for what they got out of the program.

I still go up to my old summer music camp occasionally to wash dishes, for the same reason. I think I've scrubbed toilets up there too. The music camp is a for-profit organization, too, but it wouldn't run without a large cadre of people who are grateful for what they got out of it. The mean old woman who runs the camp was pretty nasty to me while I was growing up, but I loved her for it. I'll bet a news team that's so-inclined could make that look like a cult, too, and anyone that saw the broadcast would be there an hour later with a torch and a pitchfork.

Same story with my local bike shop.

The majority of the Landmark program is run by volunteers, around 15,000 of them, the last I heard. I've looked into it a little bit, trying to find the angle, and I haven't yet found one. Although Landmark is a for-profit company, their profits aren't large and each forum leader becomes a part-owner. The forum leaders I've met don't seem anything near wealthy. My feeling is that if there really is someone at the top, getting really wealthy, more power to him, or them.

So far, for me, the 400 bucks I spent on Landmark is the best 400 bucks I've ever spent, in my life, for anything. The program was that valuable to me, despite its shortcomings. At one point a few weeks after the Forum, I was marveling at how it all could have ever worked so well, and I thought to myself, "Christ, how much would I have paid for that if I could have known in advance exactly what I would have gotten out of it?" And I had trouble putting a value on it.

Regarding the French documentary, I felt that the "experts" they brought in were brought in to say exactly what they said. They obviously had no firsthand knowledge, and to me, what was especially cruel was those so-called "experts" explaining gently to that woman, as if they really knew, that all of the positive affirmation she'd gotten out of her work with Landmark was insanity. They were led to believe they were dealing with a cult by the TV station, and paid to go on television to talk about cults. But that group of people had no right to do what they did until they verified their facts. Which they didn't. And could not have done. And were not motivated to do anyway, because they would have destroyed their story.

Regarding your last question, I am planning to take the Landmark Advanced Course this December. Some time in the next year or two I expect to take their leadership training, because I have a friend who has taken it and I've been impressed enough with the results that it seems worth the price and the time. And I've identified another course or two that look attractive.

And to answer a question you haven't asked yet, but I think it seems natural to wonder, I haven't done much volunteering with Landmark, and I don't expect to do so in the near future. I have a startup business to nurse along, and other things to do, so my time is limited. Will I volunteer, some day in the future? Perhaps. I wouldn't rule it out. The people are friendly, the results are generally worth my time, and it's actually kind of rewarding to watch people pop out of the LF and run off to do really cool things.

critical_thinker:

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Regarding not bringing lawsuits, we all know that was due to a change in law (Donato versus Moldow), whereby Rick Ross amended his defense to the tort of libel to include the Communications Decency Act. If Rick were concerned about the truth, he would not have amended.

critical_thinker, citation for other readers?

critical_thinker

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Furthermore, he would take responsibility for the posts that he moderates.

elena:

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What??? People at Landmark stupidly ~take responsibility~ for all sorts of things that are not in their purview. Are you really suggesting someone who maintains a message board take "responsibility" (apparently edit or censor) for the statements of others? What on earth can you be thinking, man? Do you even tip your hat to the idea of free speech?

For other readers of this rant, Elena has evidently in her enthusiasm lost track of the conversation. The poster, critical_thinker, is making the point that Rick Ross is sheltering behind the CDA, at which point LF decides it's not going to get a win out of this case and stops the libel case as quickly as possible.

Also for other readers, Landmark addresses blame/resentment hangups in a two-step process:

(1) Own the whole thing yourself, whether or not it's your fault. After all, that's the worst possible situation, right? That you're actually completely responsible for whatever you feel was done to you? And then (2) It's the past, put it behind you, forgive yourself, enough already. You're a human being, you screwed up, fine, so does everybody else. It may not be fair, be it stolen Hot Wheels or repeated sodomization, but it's pragmatic and when you're finished going through the process you can forgetaboutit. Sounds crazy but it works great.

You could still chant. Or confess, if that sweeps your hair back. Landmark doesn't care.

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Oh lordy, the ~take responsibility~ meme again. How on God's green earth would you know how or why someone does something or anything or doesn't do something or anything? You sound like the worst sort of amateur psychologist. Not even...but some Landmarky version of psy-co-lo-gy by way of L. Ron Hubbard and Alexander Everett.

(By the way, Ellen, I do not think the word "meme" means what you think it does)

The point is that if you're putting your past behind you to concentrate on something else, it doesn't matter who or why or how. It just doesn't. All that matters is the goal, to shuck it and move on, enough already. In the end, who the hell cares? "Be well, do good work..."

The name "Hubbard" gives me massive dyspepsia, but if that was his good idea, then I'll have to sigh and admit he had one. But I doubt it was his idea. And whether he thought it up himself or read it somewhere, automatically rejecting any idea on the off chance that it might have come out of scientology. If Hubbard had invented the spoon and ice cream sandwich, would you only eat gelato with chopsticks?

Nah, that would be silly.

Well, at least I think so.

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turambar

I still go up to my old summer music camp occasionally to wash dishes, for the same reason. I think I've scrubbed toilets up there too. The music camp is a for-profit organization, too, but it wouldn't run without a large cadre of people who are grateful for what they got out of it. The mean old woman who runs the camp was pretty nasty to me while I was growing up, but I loved her for it. I'll bet a news team that's so-inclined could make that look like a cult, too, and anyone that saw the broadcast would be there an hour later with a torch and a pitchfork.

Same story with my local bike shop.

You scrub toilets at your local bike shop?

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turambar
I had no problem with a Landmark volunteer scrubbing a bathroom, if it needed to be scrubbed. Most of the courses themselves are put on (yes, taught) by Landmark volunteers, who are in turn assisted by other volunteers, and all of these people give their time and do whatever looks like it needs doing because they feel genuinely grateful for what they got out of the program.

You should feel so proud. :roll:

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turambar
I still go up to my old summer music camp occasionally to wash dishes, for the same reason. I think I've scrubbed toilets up there too.

Quite an honor. (add nauseum) :roll: :roll:

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turambar
The majority of the Landmark program is run by volunteers, around 15,000 of them, the last I heard. I've looked into it a little bit, trying to find the angle, and I haven't yet found one. Although Landmark is a for-profit company, their profits aren't large and each forum leader becomes a part-owner. The forum leaders I've met don't seem anything near wealthy. My feeling is that if there really is someone at the top, getting really wealthy, more power to him, or them.

IT IS A FOR PROFIT ORGANIZATION!!!!! - [i:7a01664b90]Hellooooo[/i:7a01664b90]. They can afford to have hired staff to clean toilets, wash dishes, etc. You are so honored to clean the toilet for an organization that isn't even run by experts???!!!! What is wrong here? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

turambar:

See [www.culteducation.com]

This is the detailed introduction to the Landmark v. Ross lawsuit and a litigation archive, which records the company's efforts to silence its critics through legal threats and litigation.

Landmark attempted to hide behind Donato vs. Moldow.

The fact is Landmark's lawsuit was only partly impacted by this legal decision, which specifically only affected claims it made regarding the message board.

Landmark made many other and more serious claims regarding "product disparagement," which had nothing to do with the message board.

Landmark cut and ran by dismissing its own lawsuit because the company repeatedly lost every one of its efforts to seal discovery and keep it from public view.

After these discovery defeats Landmark knew that if they proceeded everything uncovered through discovery in the lawsuit would become public record.

Rather than run the risk that the public would learn about all its problems, complaints, litigation, legal threats etc. Landmark decided to cut and run.

Currently Landmark is attempting to keep the France 3 documentary off the Internet. It appears that this effort at censorship has failed.

Anyone interested can now "experience" firsthand what is wrong with the Forum by watching one held not long ago in Paris.

Not a pretty picture.

You can try to spin this, but the words of the Paris Forum leader are his own indictment.

And no matter how you attempt to spin Landmark's humiliating legal defeat, when Landmark dismissed its own lawsuit with prejudice, it lost.

Regarding your attempt to personally attack me as somehow being responsive to a French documentary critical of Landmark, this is an old Scientology strategy.

See [www.culteducation.com]

I have publicly responded to such attacks and have taken full responsibiltiy for my actions.