Quote
looking for help
"I get that........." :roll: I can't count the number of times I hear that start to a sentence. In my case it is used as a way to cut you off. In other words I hear what you are saying but I really don't want to hear it so shut up!!
However, please remember these people have been brainwashed to believe that this is for the good of all mankind and their purpose in life should be to promote LEC to everyone. The person I know best who is involved really believes she is involved in something that is "making a difference".....in a GOOD way. I believe only a VERY few at the VERY top of the organization are aware of this "RACKET."

Hi,

About this Landmark gobbledygook... Is "play" part of it too?

Am just kinda curious, is all.

It looks like I am being worked on by what may be a high-level forum leader* or whatever - she seems to be very good at this manipulation stuff - and I recognize some of the mumbo jumbo; "racket" and "you don't know what it is that you don't know" I remember, and "share".

I notice she uses "play" a lot too. Now she is, for instance, asking me if I still want to play. (Nah, dear, I don't; I am singing dadoorunrun dadoorunrun LOL.)

It made me aware of the fact that you really need to watch your language these days. "Integrity" is another of their buzz words. I happen to value integrity and I also say things like "I get that" but I had no clue of what Landmark was about until a few days ago.

The whole thing makes me kinda curious. What is in it for these people? Do they make that much money off innocent people, is it the sheer idea of the power they can exercise by pushing people's buttons - or both?

Cheers,

Carly


*I can't rule out that this person now has a group of her own or is trying to start one (she wanted me to move closer to where she and her husband live - after I had only met her twice!?), but she used to travel to other countries to lead these "courses." There is no way for me to check anything of what she says, of course, but the only things that keep adding up point toward Landmark stuff.

Hi,

As I posted earlier, I just discovered that I seem to have been targeted by one of these creeps - because that is what I feel they are. I had no idea what Landmark was about until a few days ago - when I may have accidentally missed one of their meetings (or of a spin-off group) where, if so, I had been lured to under a really sneaky pretext.

Reading these posts is here is really very helpful. More and more things start to add up now.

Understanding the lingo and the dramatic style that these people may use (about forgiving blah blah blah) is very helpful too. I think I am dealing with someone who actually knows what she is doing, not with a "drone." But should that assumption turn out to be wrong, then I will tell her that I am "committed" to doing things the way I "choose" to do them and that I "choose" to not respond to her communications anymore and that I am "committed" to that, LOL.

However, I think some of you are, in a way, also partly falling into their trap (in a good way, though), namely when you are discussing their "teachings" or whatever you want to call it. That is the reasonable thing to do, I'd say...

But...

I think part of the "secret" of these organizations - and of some other stuff that is not entirely straight - is that part of what they say sounds right and really is useful. That makes it so much easier to fall for the rest, makes you doubt your own judgement about that rest, and that makes it so much easier to be lured into it, and more difficult to leave.

I have been reading quite a bit here and there about Landmark the past few days and that is when I realized that. Some of the things they seem to be saying are actually true.

Those things are things about people's lives, personal things. If they'd say "rain is wet, the sun is green and the moon is purple," it would be a lot clearer and a lot easier to walk away.

I also recognize some of your curiosity. I have that too. But these weird e-mails etc can quickly take over your life and give you a bad headache, so be careful, please. I would not want to spend a great deal of my time trying to explain that the sun is not green and the moon is not purple to someone who is convinced they are...

I am curious, really curious, what this person I ran into is up to. But I also know that chances are that at some point in time, I will hear about what she was up to from someone else, because that is how it often goes in life. And if not? I think I can live with that... There are plenty of other things in life to be curious about and lots of other, better, meetings to go to and people to talk with!

Take care,

Carly

PS
The moon is cobalt blue, of course. ;-)

I lost a very close friend to this Landmark bs - is there really nothing i can do - i have been researching and researching ... he broke up witth me and then stopped talkint ot me and then started mumbling something about integrity, relatability, connections and clearing out the past so we can build our connection again ... i now know its all landmark jargon .. but hes been my best friend for six years and my bf for 2 .. is there really no way out?? his whole family is involved as well .. im so upset

Carly B, have you taken one hour to watch the documentary on how Landmark manipulates people:
[www.dailymotion.com]

Any group can offer a few things that "sounds right and really is useful". What matters is whether they are hiding a few terrible things, like Landmark.
It really astounds me when someone says "Well yes, Landmark may sue people, lie to hide their sordid past, and outright brainwash people. But after the Forum my relationship with my father improved, so that makes it all right, alright?"
If you get sucked in to the Forum, you will be sleep deprived and disoriented and won't have the time to think about how ridiculous this is.

Quote
ncalmeida
I lost a very close friend to this Landmark bs - is there really nothing i can do - i have been researching and researching ... he broke up witth me and then stopped talkint ot me and then started mumbling something about integrity, relatability, connections and clearing out the past so we can build our connection again ... i now know its all landmark jargon .. but hes been my best friend for six years and my bf for 2 .. is there really no way out?? his whole family is involved as well .. im so upset

I don't think there's anything to be upset about. If you're friend's your friend, he'll continue to be your friend and nobody's heads are going to explode.

Okay, first off, a disclaimer: I've taken Landmark and done a few of the graduate courses. I'm unusually cynical and I arrived at the LF with a highly cynical attitude. I listened and did the exercises to the best of my ability because I had promised a friend that I would. To my great surprise, I "popped" a few days after the Forum was over. "Popped" is Landmarkian for, er, well, sort of a calm that comes over you. It's subtle, but at some point one feels very clear, quiet, confident and happy. It lasts for a few weeks, but little by little you go back to being the old you, albeit with a slightly better outlook on life and a little bit more tolerance. It is during this clear, quiet and happy stage that people usually go out and rave wildly about the LF to anyone that will listen, and unfortunately gain bad reputations. After it wears off the feeling can be regained in bits and pieces by doing more Landmark courses and striving for that calm, clean feeling again. Luckily, most of the courses are cheap. The one I did last night was 45 bucks, euphoria not included (for me).

All adult minds are full of conflicts because life is full of conflicts, and the LF is just a presentation of a bunch of fairly effective tools to untangle some of them. Could it be harmful to some? I'm not sure. I've never encountered anyone who had been harmed by taking the initial Forum, although I've encountered one guy who was nuts to begin with and the Forum only improved him marginally. I also took the three-month-long Forum In Action course with him, and I'd say conclusively that if you're a really traumatized human being, the Landmark Forum isn't going to make you sane. Get real help. They say that too, right at the beginning of the Forum.

Are these tools the best thing since the fork, or better than anything else available? I don't know that answer either, but they do work, and I would say that on balance the world would be a disgustingly sweet but better place if everyone took the LF.

Is the course perfect? No. It's been revised a few times to filter out the most noxious EST leftovers, but it could stand more. Some of the Landmark language (I call it Landmarkian) is, in my estimation, unnecessary, and was added by Erhard strictly for branding. Some of the language is just 70's crap idiom, like the phrase "It's about..." that now pervades Hollywood dialogue. And some Landmarkian actually is pretty descriptive, but could probably be replaced with regular English.

The Forum Leader does spend about 10% of the course, in total, reminding you gently that if you're happy with what you're learning, so too will be your friends, family, coworkers and fellow human beings all over the world. After taking the course, I decided, on balance, that I agreed, but I don't think they lend themselves credibility by talking about it quite so much before the course is over. I blame that on Warner Erhard, too, and some of it has been removed from the course since I took it, or so I have heard.

Some other observations:

First of all, the Forum is not a cult, brainwashing, or even really amateur psychoanalytical group therapy. There is a group of fairly intelligent people at the top, busily sifting through literature, psychology literature included, to put together LM courses as synopses of what they've read. If you're into philosophy or self-help books, either one, you'll find aspects of Erikson, Heidigger, Flores, Fromm, Frankl, Covey and a million other people who may or may not be well-known for anything, buried in the texts of the LM courses. I do believe that the LM people are doing their absolutely level best to put together something helpful for the people who take the courses, and in general they succeed.

Second, I did notice that some of the people in the courses seemed to be treating it in a manner that I would term "unhealthy". They are so affected by what they have learned that they do turn it into a religion. To those who argue about whether Landmark is a cult, or a religion, I would chime in and say, "Yes, for some, and no, for most, and it's certainly not designed to be." Many people who do the LF have highly addictive personalities, not that there's anything wrong with that :). They act like converts to a new religion, spending all of their time doing Landmark activities, speaking Landmarkian, making Landmarkian friends and (I think) inadvertently becoming healthier people. I would expect that this particular subset of Landmark graduates eventually either derives enough from the work that they decide it's time to leave, or they get disgusted with themselves for spending their lives at it, or both. I think they're probably not harmed by it, overall, because what the heck, they do learn some great mechanisms for dealing with life in general. And off they go to the next church, I guess.

The Landmark Forum Leaders always preface the course with, "Look. This not the Truth, or a be-all and end-all fix to all Life's problems. This is just a set of tools for improving your life." They don't claim to know everything, just that they're making a presentation of techniques.

Are the Forum Leaders perfect? No. They're just human beings, with all of the foibles thereof. Some of them are smart, some not quite as smart. Some get a little bit too smug, sometimes, which makes one want to kick them. On the whole, though, they are (as many as I have met) an exceptionally nice group of people.

I have two sisters, a brother and a mom. Would I put my family through Landmark? I thought about it and decided, at first, that I would want one of my sisters to go, because she would really get a lot out of it. Then I thought about it, and decided that maybe I would add my brother to the list, because he could probably get a lot out of it. After some more thought I added my other sister to that list; she would really like it, and then after a little bit of mental wrestling I decided that my mom, who is a professor of cognitive psychology and now practices clinical psychology, would probably still enjoy it. There was nobody left, to my surprise, so yes, I would love for everyone in my family to go through the Landmark Forum.

Have I been brainwashed? Not bloody likely. I'll put my critical thinking and observational skills up against anyone else's. If you treat it as a course, for which you're paying someone to teach just like any other course, Landmark Forum is well worth the price. Just don't think that the happiness you experience as a result should be the basis for a new religion, and don't dive into it as a substitute for your old life, and you'll be happy with it.

turambar:

Do you think you will take more courses or quit now after the Forum and move on?

Quote
joe6
Carly B, have you taken one hour to watch the documentary on how Landmark manipulates people:
[www.dailymotion.com]

Any group can offer a few things that "sounds right and really is useful". What matters is whether they are hiding a few terrible things, like Landmark.
It really astounds me when someone says "Well yes, Landmark may sue people, lie to hide their sordid past, and outright brainwash people. But after the Forum my relationship with my father improved, so that makes it all right, alright?"
If you get sucked in to the Forum, you will be sleep deprived and disoriented and won't have the time to think about how ridiculous this is.

I went and watched those videos, and although I was a little amazed at what the French forum leader said, I mostly laughed the whole way through. The soft news team that put that story together could make Mother Teresa seem like she was plotting viciously to gain control of your precious bodily fluids. And no, Landmark doesn't limit you to one meal a day. They start at 9 am and give you two 90-minute breaks and a lot of short ones to go to the bathroom or just stretch.

Come on, there's no big conspiracy here. People who go to Landmark don't conspire to "make you think" things. Ideas like that in itself sounds crazy to me. People who go to Landmark often DO come out so enthused that they try to get people to go do the course, but manipulation and trickery are actually the exact opposite of what the course teaches. Read some of the other posts here and you'll find other people grousing that Landmark teaches people to be open in everything they do and say, and how harmful that is.

One of Landmark's basic lessons is to "put the past in the past" by cleaning up any wrongs you might have done to people, including lies, and then stay clean by being honest with people. A lot of the more suspicious people on this forum find that annoying at best, but it certainly doesn't jive with the conspiracy and brainwash theories I've read here. Sheesh. Given the huge number of people that take these courses every weekend, I would expect even more detractors than there actually are, unless it was an excellent program. And it is. I don't see Landmark as my new pastime, like some people do, but I've taken the Forum, one three-month course, and two evening courses, not counting the introduction, and I've been really impressed. I'm planning to take at least three more. The courses are reasonably priced, well-organized and well-done.

With Landmark, you're basically paying some people to scour literature for good ideas, and then put together a presentation for you. I did the same thing in college. Most people say that college helped them, a few say that college was harmful, but I've never heard anyone say that college was a conspiracy. Why then do some people here say that Landmark must be? Are these the same folks that characterize Harry Potter as a Wiccan plot? Oh geez. It just occurred to me that I should go look for that elsewhere on this forum.

truambar:

So you thought it was funny when the Forum leader said the mother as an "asshole" and also mocked her while she was crying?

Did you also think it was humorous when the Forum leader discussed how the mother might get cancer or commit suicide?

Which part was the most funny to you?

What did you think about the Landmark volunteer scrubbing the bathroom?

Why would a for-profit privately owned company have volunteers?

See [www.culteducation.com]

BTW--you didn't answer my question, are you planning on taking additional courses from Landmark?

turambar, you laughed the whole way through, even though there was a scene where a woman under public humiliation is crying and the Forum leader tells her it's all her fault and that she should die a slow painful death. This is a terrible thing to see, but I assume that your perceptions have been conditioned not to see things critical of Landmark.

You have been mentally conditioned not to see something that's right in front of you. Therefore, you are brainwashed.

The woman actually said the conversation with Alain Roth was advantageous. I don't know what you are complaining about.