Pramgatist:

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There really is no difference between Landmark and, let's say the Catholic church - at the core level

At the "core level" Landmark is a for profit privately owned company. It is a business built to make money for its owners and add to their net worth.

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you go and convert into their system, and then someone else comes along and calls you "brainwashed".... because his belief system is different than yours,

No. "brainwashing" is quite different from religious indoctrination. And it's not about what you believe, but rather how the group behaves.

See [www.culteducation.com]

The Catholic Church is up front about what it believes and there is nothing hidden by any confidentiality agreement required to be signed by participants. Roman Catholics also don't sign releases limiting church liability to binding arbritration.

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rrmoderator
The Catholic Church is up front about what it believes and there is nothing hidden by any confidentiality agreement required to be signed by participants. Roman Catholics also don't sign releases limiting church liability to binding arbritration.

rrmoderator - do you ever watch poker on TV? Which guy on the table has the upper hand when it comes to being 'upfront' - the one with the mountain of chips or the one who has to bluff his way out of being shut out of the game?

As with anything, when you are starting religions, you start small. Your instinct for economic survival will impel you to do things that your large opponent might not need to resort to. So, on a purely psychological basis - the one who has more cash "wins" (even though he may be losing that hand).

The one who is bluffing isn't about to give up his hand, which is akin to a confidentiality agreement - he's holding something which could pull him through to the next round, or hell, even win, if the larger opponent gets too complacent with his wealth (which reminds me of microsoft by the way :).

Can you blame the new age cult-like organizations for their antics so long as they aren't breaking the law and so long as everyone gets enrolled by means of persuasion? I can't. Not only can I not blame them, but I'd be a pure hypocrite to do so - because I sell myself real good each time I try to get a new job - and if I get an opportunity to use my future employer's belief system to my advantage, you best believe I will do so, regardless of how many lies I have to tell just to get my foot in the door. Of course, this does not assure my survival at that company - but I don't need to lie past the initial interview, because I actually have skills which will help me maintain that job.

Where these human potential seminars fail, in my opinion, is they do not really offer anything of lasting value to the participants. They milk their wallets, yet provide only more feel good in return. What would be much better is if they actually taught their participants the techniques they employ on them in order to help them be more resilient in life.... however, the price of that is much higher - you either have to work for them (be an enroller) or pay a shitload of money to get your hands on their "technology", which is age old... except finetuned to contemporary beliefs so that it can appeal to the majority of people now. Their content changes with the times they are in.

Anyway, thanks for the URL. I appreciate it.

pragmatist:

"New age cult-like organizations" that play their participants like a poker game are not acting ethically or honestly.

What is hypocritical is that such organizations often tout "integrity."

And then ask participants to waive rights through a signed release form, which seems like not taking responsibility for their seminar.

Such things may be "pragmatic," but they contradict what such seminar-selling companies (LGATs) so often say they are all about.

Think of these operations as business models... all cogent players are watching for ideas to improve their businesses as businesses.... the [b:3fd11b8954] knockdown incongruity [/b:3fd11b8954] within this community is that they are trying to square a circle.... business based relationships with business based goals stated in business based language require objectivity, arms length discussion, a clear perception of what is being exchaged for value... our society (and the laws that shape our society) do recognize special cases such as educational institutions that have to function economically but to some extent stand outside of the flow of business life, colleges, universities, academies... which are granted non profit status, have to maintain high levels of transparency, and are expressly forbidden from doing certain "for profit" actions.... there is a clear social contract at work... such as... teenagers will apply to these institutions, be exposed to specific knowledge for 4 years or so, and emerge with socially valuable knowledge.... like how to do the math to build a bridge that doesn't fall down... the process is understandable for anyone who wants to understand it... I know of no university that requires an oath of secrecy.... "You will never speak of Calculus, Analytic Geometry, Linear Algebra, or Topology to one who has not offered incense and sweetmeats to the Goddess Mathematikkaa, and by the way, you don't know your Ass from Holism in the Ground of Being".... well, maybe the fraterneties act like that.... but then, from some reports I've heard, [b:3fd11b8954] some fraterneties DO behave like cults [/b:3fd11b8954] and have incredibly abusive ritual hazings and punishments for infractions.... which might tell us something about generalized, unconscious emotional disturbances in "normal society" that are given an outlet, or permission to exist, in fraternity or cultlike settings...

But... on to [b:c078a45d26] squaring the circle [/b:c078a45d26] , or attempting to stuff a hypersphere into a hypercube, or whatever the [i:c078a45d26] bullshit du jour [/i:c078a45d26] is on today's menu of life options... while trying to retain the opacity, privity of contract, and all of the legal protections afforded to for profit corporations... these persons are simultaneously attempting to establish "special case status" for themselves and their operations... where they are entitled to access one's deepest and most personal sense of being, or what one defines AS one's being... areas that long experience in our society has shown us to be the purview of religion, psychotherapy, art, and some forms of philosophy.... and society has also evolved to see that these things need to be done in a transparent fashion or they can become corrupt and self serving... and for sure there are many lamentable examples of religious figures, therapists, and thinkers who fall far short of this ideal... but ultimately that aren't [b:c078a45d26] relationally positioned [/b:c078a45d26] in their society as deserving the special class of protections and privileges that we afford to ongoing business operations... and, conversely, businesses are enjoined from inserting themselves into the personal domain of life... a business is supposed to leave your private self, your personal beliefs, your attitudes, your form of life, completely alone unless something about it bears a direct impact on your ability to perform your job.... and as a functioning society, we make every reasonable effort to keep these two domains apart... and for good reason... the LGAT model, on the other hand, generally works by [b:c078a45d26] collapsing this distinction [/b:c078a45d26] ... as do multi level marketing schemes and related pyrimidal organizations...

so, if I read you correctly - your biggest concern is that someone is able to make money by offering you a renewed sense of self through reflection, regression, self-examination, confession, etc (all elements of LGATs)? Can I ask why you resent this notion?

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nutrino
Think of these operations as business models... all cogent players are watching for ideas to improve their businesses as businesses.... the [b:c57fa73de7] knockdown incongruity [/b:c57fa73de7] within this community is that they are trying to square a circle.... business based relationships with business based goals stated in business based language require objectivity, arms length discussion, a clear perception of what is being exchaged for value... our society (and the laws that shape our society) do recognize special cases such as educational institutions that have to function economically but to some extent stand outside of the flow of business life, colleges, universities, academies... which are granted non profit status, have to maintain high levels of transparency, and are expressly forbidden from doing certain "for profit" actions.... there is a clear social contract at work... such as... teenagers will apply to these institutions, be exposed to specific knowledge for 4 years or so, and emerge with socially valuable knowledge.... like how to do the math to build a bridge that doesn't fall down... the process is understandable for anyone who wants to understand it... I know of no university that requires an oath of secrecy.... "You will never speak of Calculus, Analytic Geometry, Linear Algebra, or Topology to one who has not offered incense and sweetmeats to the Goddess Mathematikkaa, and by the way, you don't know your Ass from Holism in the Ground of Being".... well, maybe the fraterneties act like that.... but then, from some reports I've heard, [b:c57fa73de7] some fraterneties DO behave like cults [/b:c57fa73de7] and have incredibly abusive ritual hazings and punishments for infractions.... which might tell us something about generalized, unconscious emotional disturbances in "normal society" that are given an outlet, or permission to exist, in fraternity or cultlike settings...

when you watch TV at night or play on your Macbook pro (or whatever it is you have), can you help not think of either the computer vendor and their product line or the commercial on toothpaste that just promised no cavities if you use us versus them?

Dude - it's a dog eat dog world out there. And if you are able to stay within your contract, whatever that might be, selling 'feel good' material or a laptop computer - and you are _not_ deceiving people - you are well within your legal right to do so.

Just because you allow the opportunity for someone to **** with your personal beliefs and history, and then feel jaded about it - well, that's your own freakin' problem, if you excuse me for saying so. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen, right?

If everything was done with the kind of transparency you so yearn for, you may stop buying half the products that you currently buy right now. If transparency is present in for-profit corporations, they'd be up shit's creek ithout a paddle.

The _most_ you can hope for, is that someone that says or promises a good or service in exchange for cash, does indeed _deliver_ as promised. That is what the USA and pretty much all of the western world is based on - capitalism. Your issue is with the methods employed - and for that you can seek to introduce laws to curb LGATs or write the LGATs and tell them they are displeased.

But, if you really,really want to point fingers at someone for allowing LGATs to spread like wildfire in the developed world - then thank your education systems for mass producing people who can not think, people who memorize facts but do not understand ideas and people who are unable to write and express themselves. LGATs would cease to exist in a heartbeat if everyone was well-read, well-educated and well-versed in science and math. As I said to the first poster who was "afraid" to believe now - do you wish to get rid of your beliefs? Then study science. Study math. And above all, study economics, for those who do not understand it are doomed to find out about it the hard way, through LGAT's and "recovery" experiences which milked them for cash all throughout. Even if you go and "recover" - you then have to pay the damned psychologist or counselor to help you 'recover'... it never friggin ends.

Science/math, literature, language, is the road to salvation from LGATs and other similar stupidities. So when you look at the "cool" guys who did not know math or were good with women in high school, while your pimply self couldn't score with a woman even if your life depended on it but you are able to ace your science/math exams - think to yourself - I will not be anyone's victim in the future because I can verify the material world against facts, and the facts against valid ideas that come from the physical realm - and think to yourself that you can also learn the power of persuasion - which will inevitably help you through life, whether it is with getting women, getting money, getting ahead in a hypocritical corporation, etc.

It's really quite simple. LGAT's are a product of the cultural/social/educational phenomenons that exist in well-developed countries with a lot of lazy irresponsible people.

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nutrino
But... on to [b:dd4b947cb4] squaring the circle [/b:dd4b947cb4] , or attempting to stuff a hypersphere into a hypercube, or whatever the [i:dd4b947cb4] bullshit du jour [/i:dd4b947cb4] is on today's menu of life options... while trying to retain the opacity, privity of contract, and all of the legal protections afforded to for profit corporations... these persons are simultaneously attempting to establish "special case status" for themselves and their operations... where they are entitled to access one's deepest and most personal sense of being, or what one defines AS one's being... areas that long experience in our society has shown us to be the purview of religion, psychotherapy, art, and some forms of philosophy.... and society has also evolved to see that these things need to be done in a transparent fashion or they can become corrupt and self serving... and for sure there are many lamentable examples of religious figures, therapists, and thinkers who fall far short of this ideal... but ultimately that aren't [b:dd4b947cb4] relationally positioned [/b:dd4b947cb4] in their society as deserving the special class of protections and privileges that we afford to ongoing business operations... and, conversely, businesses are enjoined from inserting themselves into the personal domain of life... a business is supposed to leave your private self, your personal beliefs, your attitudes, your form of life, completely alone unless something about it bears a direct impact on your ability to perform your job.... and as a functioning society, we make every reasonable effort to keep these two domains apart... and for good reason... the LGAT model, on the other hand, generally works by [b:dd4b947cb4] collapsing this distinction [/b:dd4b947cb4] ... as do multi level marketing schemes and related pyrimidal organizations...

To whom it may concern:

Just want everyone on this thread to know that "pragmatist" turned out to be a Landmark troll.

He has been banned for soliciting business for Landmark through private messaging.

This post may not be appropriate, as some might see it as a personal attack, but that's not how it's intended. The moderator may remove it if it seems necessary.

I've been following Pragmatist's threads with interest. They tell a story, in my opinion, of someone who essentially does not like himself, has few if any personal ethics -- he openly admits, smugly at that, to lying and cheating at every opportunity if it furthers his interests -- and sees the world through the jaundiced eye of a morally corrupt being. He is also nowhere near as smart as he thinks he is and is prone to the most deafening levels of logical dissonance in his postings, especially about Landmark Education and the validity of their philosophy and methods. His contradictions and misperceptions are too many to list here. I believe Pragmatist went to Landmark without a strong sense of self, without any self love, with a very shaky ego, trying to find a way to reconcile his existence with the world and still some of his personal demons, and I believe that Landmark was the worst possible experience for him. It destabilized him fundamentally and in his private messaging this is disturbingly clear.

I don't believe Pragmatist is a troll in the malicious sense. I believe he he truly suffering from what Landmark did to his mind and sense of reality, and he was in part reaching out from a very lonely place, trying to bolster his personal support of Landmark and many other choices he has made in his life by enrolling other people into a similar reality. Unfortunately he continues to descend quickly into the nastiness he claims has been endemic to his being, and which Landmark has clearly not eradicated, though this escapes his notice as well, and he credits Landmark with "transforming" him radically.

My point in writing this is that I think Pragmatist represents a particular type of person for who Landmark Education is a potent poison. I don't like Pragmatist as a person, but I feel pity for what he is going through now, as Landmark has apparently plunged him into a deep existential crisis, from which his problematic ego will make it very difficult to emerge.

Once again here is yet another example of how Landmark can corrupt and destabalize a persons mind even further. They took a person that was obviously in need of help in the beginning and pushed him further into a pit of darkness. A person that now uses Landmark reasoning to justify his actions.

Pragmatist, if your out there reading this, please, for your own sake, and the sake of the people that care about you, go get Professional Psychological help from professionals. Not help from a screwed up organization (Landmark) that is merely using you as a pawn in their quest for power and money.

If you don't get help and continue with the Landmark rehtoric and ideology you're going to end up in a very bad place in your life.