Post-cult, I'm completely baffled about [u:979272c228]how[/u:979272c228] to believe and [u:979272c228]what[/u:979272c228] to believe. In addition to questioning and discarding the cult beliefs, I am doing the same with ALL my beliefs. As a consequence, I feel shaken to my core and without a foundation on which to stand and from which to operate.

I think I need [u:979272c228]some[/u:979272c228] kind of belief system but my bind is that I don't know how to know what to believe. I don't even feel like I know [u:979272c228]how[/u:979272c228] to believe anymore. If there's a belief I'm considering buying into, I question it to death and find a flaw somewhere. I guess I don't trust myself to know what's even true anymore.

I'm interested how others have dealt with this kind of thing or in any suggestions. About the only thing that makes sense to me is dis-trust and dis-belief. My protection is skepticism, which leaves me feeling lost at sea. The remedy, I think, is to have an "operating system" (beliefs) but after the CRAP I believed in the cult, I truly don't know [u:979272c228]what[/u:979272c228] to believe. I almost feel I'd rather be lost at sea (which is very ROUGH) than to be conned by seductive but insane beliefs.

Quote
skeptic
Post-cult, I'm completely baffled about [u:54c23b5a8b]how[/u:54c23b5a8b] to believe and [u:54c23b5a8b]what[/u:54c23b5a8b] to believe. In addition to questioning and discarding the cult beliefs, I am doing the same with ALL my beliefs. As a consequence, I feel shaken to my core and without a foundation on which to stand and from which to operate.

I think I need [u:54c23b5a8b]some[/u:54c23b5a8b] kind of belief system but my bind is that I don't know how to know what to believe. I don't even feel like I know [u:54c23b5a8b]how[/u:54c23b5a8b] to believe anymore. If there's a belief I'm considering buying into, I question it to death and find a flaw somewhere. I guess I don't trust myself to know what's even true anymore.

I'm interested how others have dealt with this kind of thing or in any suggestions. About the only thing that makes sense to me is dis-trust and dis-belief. My protection is skepticism, which leaves me feeling lost at sea. The remedy, I think, is to have an "operating system" (beliefs) but after the CRAP I believed in the cult, I truly don't know [u:54c23b5a8b]what[/u:54c23b5a8b] to believe. I almost feel I'd rather be lost at sea (which is very ROUGH) than to be conned by seductive but insane beliefs.

Hi skeptic,

It appears as though most of us in the human race have a high degree of intolerance for uncertainty, for paradox, for ambiguity, and for the contemplation of the unknown and unknowable. It is this weakness - if you want to call it that - that religious leaders, tyrants, despots, czars, and other self-appointed emissaries from the "higher realms" have always been able to exploit. Once you realize this, that intolerance might be your ticket into a greater comtemplation - the theoretical and hypothetical realms of science - with so many more entertaining mysteries than those of fairy tales and imaginary friends.


For me, personally, there's an infinite supply of "spiritual grounding" in the natural world. No need for much except short walk through some undisturbed corner or bit of wild land to keep me happy.


Ellen

Hey skeptic,

To be honest with you I believe that anyone who can claim to believe in one, or even more ideologies/beliefs/theories is a little barmy these days. A healthy amount of skeptisim, coupled with an inquisitive mind should make the days go by ok!

Read from as many different sources as possible - left wing, right wing, ecological, capitalist, democratic, communist - just keep questioning yourself and the world - you'll find some amazing things on the way!

For me though it is people who always ground me. Just watching people in a shopping centre (sorry - mall) is enough to keep me happy if I'm down - at least I'm not that lost!

Any ideology that costs to learn - stay away - those on the right path should realise that money is a man-made, modern invention, and has nothing to do with learning or spirituality.

Another personal thing was shaking off the guilt complexes installed by western religion - worst form of mindcontrol out there.

PM me if you want to chat ever friend.

I really liked this article by an ex member of MOL.

[www.culteducation.com]

Quote

After I was out of MoL, I refused categorically to listen to any spiritual teachings whatsoever and any form of MoL meditation including any of their music chosen to induce feeling and "open you up" or better break down your defenses. When I needed to recollect myself I would just sit quietly in silence. I wanted to have all sorts of spiritual beliefs evaporated from my system.
I started to sing in a gospel choir, and my heart felt healing again. I went back to my mountain and walked alone to connect with my mountain spirit I know is in me.
I didn’t know then, this is the direction to go when you recover from cult. Steve Hassan [See disclaimer regarding Steve Hassan below] described it magnificently in his books: look at who you were before the cult involvement, find your dreams again.

I had my entire world view turned upside down by a very cultish recovery group, and I had not really gotten my feet back underneath me. Then I got involved with cult #2.

I was never a "believer" in anything, but I was somewhat naive about belief systems and the people who peddle them.
For me, the loss of my illusions meant the loss of a lot of the magic in life.
It was very painful at first, but I've learned to live with it.
For me, it's like;
So what if I can't agree with others on the mysteries of the universe?
I don't even want to talk about who God is, does he exist, what God looks like, or what God wants me to do.
The most important thing for me is to trust myself, my own perceptions, my own wisdom, (what little I do have).
And it really helps to have a sense of humor.

Disclaimer regarding Steve Hassan

The Ross Institute of New Jersey/May 2013

See [www.culteducation.com]

The inclusion of news articles within the Ross Institute of New Jersey (RI) archives, which mention and/or quote Steven Hassan, in no way suggests that RI recommends Mr. Hassan or recognizes him in any way.

News articles that mention Steve Hassan have been archived for historical purposes only due to the information they contain about controversial groups, movements and/or leaders.

RI does not recommend Steven Hassan.

RI has received serious complaints about Steve Hassan concerning his fees. Mr. Hassan does not publicly disclose his fee schedule, but according to complaints Steve Hassan has charged fees varying from $250.00 per hour or $2,500.00 per day to $500.00 per hour or $5,000.00 per day. This does not include Mr. Hassan's expenses, which according to complaints can be quite substantial.

Steven Hassan has charged families tens of thousands of dollars and provided questionable results. One recent complaint cited total fees of almost $50,000.00. But this very expensive intervention effort ended in failure.

Dr. Cathleen Mann, who holds a doctorate in psychology and has been a licensed counselor in the state of Colorado since 1994 points out, "Nowhere does Hassan provide a base rate and/or any type or accepted statistical method defining his results..."

Steve Hassan has at times suggested to potential clients that they purchase a preliminary report based upon what he calls his "BITE" model. These "BITE reports" can potentially cost thousands of dollars.

See [corp.sec.state.ma.us]

Steve Hassan runs a for-profit corporation called "Freedom of Mind." Mr. Hassan is listed as the corporate agent for that business as well as its president and treasurer.

RI does not recommend "Freedom of Mind" as a resource.

RI also does not list or recommend Steve Hassan's books.

To better understand why Mr. Hassan's books are not recommended by RI read this detailed review of his most recently self-published book titled "Freedom of Mind."

See [www.cultnews.com]

Steve Hassan's cult intervention methodology has historically raised concerns since its inception. The book "Recovery from Cults" (W.W. Norton & Co. pp. 174-175) edited by Dr. Michael Langone states the following:

"Calling his approach 'strategic intervention [sic] therapy,' Hassan (1988) stresses that, although he too tries to communicate a body of information to cultists and to help them think independently, he also does formal counseling. As with many humanistic counseling approaches, Hassan’s runs the risk of imposing clarity, however subtly, on the framework’s foundational ambiguity and thereby manipulating the client."

RI has also learned that Mr. Hassan has had dual-relationships with his counseling clients. That is, clients seeing Mr. Hassan for counseling may also do professional cult intervention work with him.

Professionals in the field of cultic studies have also expressed concerns regarding Steven Hassan's use of hypnosis and Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP).

Based upon complaints and the concerns expressed about Mr. Hassan RI does not recommend Steve Hassan for counseling, intervention work or any other form of professional consultation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2013 09:00PM by rrmoderator.

Thanks for the support and suggestions! Good points. Bonnie, the MoL piece hit the nail on the head. BAM! I know I'm in a process of picking up the pieces. Looks like a loooooooong haul, from this vantage point. Reading here and elsewhere definitely helps the process of (deeper & deeper) understanding and of finding some pieces.

I also want to add, I may be misstating when I speak of beliefs. A song I heard this morning triggered that thought. As I think more about it, it feels like I lack a framework of reference, or a foundation. I can't* quite articulate it. Still looking for pieces (of my brain!).

*"can't" is taboo in the lgat I was in. So, I like saying it now! tsk tsk

Hello sir/madam
i take this opportunity to write u this few words of mind.i could like to know u better and be ur good friend.I'm a Liberian refugee in west africa Ghana,who got this site from the net to get people around the as good friends and a close relationship with them,no mater why i am african,lol some may not even think of me,but it left with the good people in here.well thank for ur understanding.


hope to here from u soon.

ur faithfull

bonkeyhoo:

Please understand that this message board is not just to make friends, it's about certainly subjects, groups and conerns.

Quote
skeptic
Post-cult, I'm completely baffled about [u:38b60be762]how[/u:38b60be762] to believe and [u:38b60be762]what[/u:38b60be762] to believe. In addition to questioning and discarding the cult beliefs, I am doing the same with ALL my beliefs. As a consequence, I feel shaken to my core and without a foundation on which to stand and from which to operate.

I think I need [u:38b60be762]some[/u:38b60be762] kind of belief system but my bind is that I don't know how to know what to believe. I don't even feel like I know [u:38b60be762]how[/u:38b60be762] to believe anymore. If there's a belief I'm considering buying into, I question it to death and find a flaw somewhere. I guess I don't trust myself to know what's even true anymore.

I'm interested how others have dealt with this kind of thing or in any suggestions. About the only thing that makes sense to me is dis-trust and dis-belief. My protection is skepticism, which leaves me feeling lost at sea. The remedy, I think, is to have an "operating system" (beliefs) but after the CRAP I believed in the cult, I truly don't know [u:38b60be762]what[/u:38b60be762] to believe. I almost feel I'd rather be lost at sea (which is very ROUGH) than to be conned by seductive but insane beliefs.

Skeptic, I completely understand. I am also at a point where I'm not sure what I believe anymore. I don't want to get badly hurt or conned, but on the other hand, I don't want to believe in nothing and I don't want to be bitter and cynical about spirituality.

Will Rogers said it best: "I'd rather be the one who bought the Brooklyn Bridge than the one who sold it."

Quote
skeptic
Post-cult, I'm completely baffled about [u:0748e0529f]how[/u:0748e0529f] to believe and [u:0748e0529f]what[/u:0748e0529f] to believe. In addition to questioning and discarding the cult beliefs, I am doing the same with ALL my beliefs. As a consequence, I feel shaken to my core and without a foundation on which to stand and from which to operate.

I think I need [u:0748e0529f]some[/u:0748e0529f] kind of belief system but my bind is that I don't know how to know what to believe. I don't even feel like I know [u:0748e0529f]how[/u:0748e0529f] to believe anymore. If there's a belief I'm considering buying into, I question it to death and find a flaw somewhere. I guess I don't trust myself to know what's even true anymore.

I'm interested how others have dealt with this kind of thing or in any suggestions. About the only thing that makes sense to me is dis-trust and dis-belief. My protection is skepticism, which leaves me feeling lost at sea. The remedy, I think, is to have an "operating system" (beliefs) but after the CRAP I believed in the cult, I truly don't know [u:0748e0529f]what[/u:0748e0529f] to believe. I almost feel I'd rather be lost at sea (which is very ROUGH) than to be conned by seductive but insane beliefs.

Hi skeptic,

I was finishing up Steven Hassan's Releasing the Bonds last night, and ran across this and thought of your post. There are two quotes, both from Chapter 12, the latter part of which deals with post-cult issues:

Quote

Another common problem is a lack of trust. Ex-members sometimes feel that they can never trust anyone again -- least of all themselves. They fear intimacy and avoid commitment to people, jobs, and even hobbies, because they worry about taking another emotional risk. They need to have the tools to assess new people and situations, and to understand that when they were recruited into a cult, they didn't have those tools. They need to understand that they were vulnerable to cult influence because they didn't understand mind control and were deceived into an involvement. Now they know better. They need to forgive themselves, and trust that they have new tools to make good decisions.

Hassan, Steven, Releasing the Bonds, p. 321

The next one is a shortened version of a three step process he gives for self-healing:

Quote

First, the former member starts by writing a detailed outline of his cult experience . . . . Once the outline is in place, the ex-member should sort through his notes to trigger memories of additional positive, negative, and curious or "strange" experiences. The aim is to recover thoughts, feelings, and behaviors that might have been ignored or repressed while he was in the cult, and to assess values and beliefs that were distorted by the group.

With this outline as a guide, former members visualize the scene of their recruitment from a dissociated or "observer" perspective, as if they were watching themselves on television. THis differs dramatically from remembering it from an "associated" perspective -- experiencing what they saw and felt at the time . . . . Ex-members come to realize that they do not need to revictimize themselves by re-experiencing their cult self each time they have a memory.

The next step is perhaps the most significant part of the healing process. I suggest the client go back in time to crucial moments in his involvement and "re-do" them, with the new information, resources, and perspectives that he now has. He can say or do what he would do if he knew then what he knows now . . . . [list:0748e0529f] - these negative things happened to a younger "you"
- you did the best you knew how at the time based on your knowledge and abilities
- now, you are older, wiser, and have more resources about mind control and cult practices. [/list:u:0748e0529f]
Hassan, Steven, Releasing the Bonds, p 328-330

This may be helpful, maybe not. You can decide.

The very fact that you are here, questioning, and stuggling through all of this shows how alive you are. Your posts show an ability to sort through the crap, and it's very natural to question everything right now. That may actually be good. Being shaken to the foundation will eliminate all the crap on that foundation, and give you clean, solid footings to build a new life on. We all should be shaken from time to time.

You can do this!

-lightwolf

You may want to stick to pure science and anything close to nature, as Elena suggested. I've been reading this forum and a boatload of other literature for a long time. In spite of numerous reports of "psychological damage" by many people - I attended nonetheless all of Landmark's 4 stages, starting with the Forum for which I paid, and the rest of them I got others to pay for me based on what I learned in the forum.

I've been to Scientology's (dianetics) indoctrination sessions, have attended Tony Robbins firewalk and a seminar....

Whether you do any of the commercial stuff, or whether you are putting 20 dollars in the donation box at your local church... it doesn't matter man.... We're creatures driven entirely, or almost entirely on beliefs - and you need to be extremely cognizant of that "small" fact.

Isolating yourself from the world and others because we're (largely) a belief driven entity isn't going to make you any happier, if anything, it will make you more miserable. We're social creatures. We like to talk, communicate, laugh, be respected - all of which are parts of our belief systems, much like unpleasurable experiences are also part of our belief system that we were indoctrinated with since young age. When we encounter something against our beliefs, we resent it, deny it, shun it, stay away from it... when we find something that identifies with our belief systems, we befriend it....

There really is no difference between Landmark and, let's say the Catholic church - at the core level, they both seek to recruit and enroll people in their belief system, which of course, is omniscient and heals all ailments. But of course, you go and convert into their system, and then someone else comes along and calls you "brainwashed".... because his belief system is different than yours, etc etc. It never ends.

As I said, the primary ultimate goal behind most of these charisma driven cult-like entities is enrollment - from which profits and money stem. And then if you are really good at persuasion - you will make money.

The fucked up thing is - money alone doesn't bring happiness.... a lot of other things do. Like falling in love.... having a relationship... etc. again, all unfortunately espoused by beliefs and given life to by your beliefs.

So trying to NOT believe - is going to get you nowhere, other than total seclusion and isolation from everything that tries to alter your belief. Don't resist anything - just move out of the way if you dont like it. Dont choose it.

Neither of these selfimprovement courses are unethical in the sense that they do anything physical to you. It is inevitable that people will get sucked into it. But who is to blame?I dont know. It is not like they did not have a choice.

Just be aware of who you are and what your faults are..... keep your belly full, your mind open and be on guard for anything that might physically harm you. The rest is - again, all beliefs :)....

Quote
skeptic
Post-cult, I'm completely baffled about [u:708d775cbb]how[/u:708d775cbb] to believe and [u:708d775cbb]what[/u:708d775cbb] to believe. In addition to questioning and discarding the cult beliefs, I am doing the same with ALL my beliefs. As a consequence, I feel shaken to my core and without a foundation on which to stand and from which to operate.

I think I need [u:708d775cbb]some[/u:708d775cbb] kind of belief system but my bind is that I don't know how to know what to believe. I don't even feel like I know [u:708d775cbb]how[/u:708d775cbb] to believe anymore. If there's a belief I'm considering buying into, I question it to death and find a flaw somewhere. I guess I don't trust myself to know what's even true anymore.

I'm interested how others have dealt with this kind of thing or in any suggestions. About the only thing that makes sense to me is dis-trust and dis-belief. My protection is skepticism, which leaves me feeling lost at sea. The remedy, I think, is to have an "operating system" (beliefs) but after the CRAP I believed in the cult, I truly don't know [u:708d775cbb]what[/u:708d775cbb] to believe. I almost feel I'd rather be lost at sea (which is very ROUGH) than to be conned by seductive but insane beliefs.