Suicides that COULD be related to LE but we'll never know
Posted by:
midonov123
()
Date: April 06, 2006 05:32AM
Quote
Acid Reindeer
I really would like to discuss this in full, had we a general topics discussion area.
for the record, HMO's did not come into the picture as far as what I described. in those days they did not exist.
briefly, in the private mental institution where I had the misfortune to get incarcerated (the most prestigious in the country) "treatment plans" got made up in the following manner:
one of the staff members would write up a report of what went on during a shift. one particular staff member would have one inmate as his or her responsibility. that staff member plus a therapist who met with me once per week would advise a "treatment team" of administrative types which included the head psychiatrist of the ward.
the head psychiatrist of the ward and the other member of the team would see me, along with fifty other inmates, once or twice weekly for fifty minutes at a group meeting. none of them, bar the therapist, had ever talked to me at length. they had administrative functions, no time, not their job, they had a ward to run.
they made up their decisions based on words written on paper and from those once or twice weekly group meetings.
one of the psychiatrists, whose idea of why I feared and hated my brother came from some kind of neo-Freudian psychoanalytic theory rather than the fact that they towered over me and had regularly beat me up and abused me, up to and including spitting in my face, advised that I would benefit from one to two years in an institution to deal with my irrational feelings towards my brother. I have a particular grudge against this man, a Dr. Peter Choras.
I know this now, having had access ot my records. at the time, when I asked, "who dictates things? how does it work? how decides?" I got met with the cult-like answer, "you decide when you get let out."
I agree completely with your opinions in the last paragraph of your post.
The history of psychiatry is full of atrocities. Dr. Cameron from the Memorial Institute in Montreal is a good example with the CIA funded MKULTRA project in the 60's (patients were used as guinea pigs for brainwashing experiments!).
Suicides that COULD be related to LE but we'll never know
Posted by:
Acid Reindeer
()
Date: April 06, 2006 05:57AM
Quote
midonov123
There is absolutely NO comparison to be made!
Presciption drugs are given to patients when the benefits outweights the risks and there is a follow up by psychiatrists to make sure the results are positive. If the response is not as expected, the doctor will adjust the dosage or prescribe a different drug. This is medicine.
you may have this subjective opinion, but the [i:bd791f27f4]Wall Street Journal[/i:bd791f27f4] reprints data from a study that indicates antidepressants pose a risk.
the hypothetical example you used involves subjective analysis on the part of both the physician and the person taking the drug. with individual people, you cannot do a double blind study.
Suicides that COULD be related to LE but we'll never know
Posted by:
nutrino
()
Date: April 06, 2006 10:18AM
However, the apples go in the apple pile and the oranges go in the orange pile.
The LGATs are behaving, in their own ways, shapes, and forms, more akin to money driven psychologic institutions, including the one you had the misfortune to be trapped in, than they are in cases where one receives one on one counseling with a therapist which one is at liberty to walk away from.
Fundamentally, I believe institutions, LGATs or otherwise, become fatally trapped in their own institutional dynamics, where the chief drive is perpetuate the bureacracy while minimizing the accountability of said bureaucracy.
I would also say, based on some personal experience, that there are a sufficient number of psychologists and psychiatrists, social workers and other assorted "healers" who are absolute idiots, if not worse.
Where I become incensed with some of the LGATs is that they ARE doing psychology, in many people the functional equivalent of aggressive clinical psychology, while pretending they aren't.... OK,"pretending" is to kind of a word, lying through their teeth that they aren't, then taking no responsibility for their outcomes...
It's sort of the difference between a mediocre surgeon who passed his exams, did his residency, and now perfoms mediocre surgery, constrained by certain institutional norms, and say, ummm, a guy who ran a successful landscaping business who now feels the need to perform surgery with no further training.... but, he reassures you, not to worry, he's Impeccable... and the anaesthesiologist ? Oh him, he has a pilot's license and he instally bowling alleys, a great guy, real powerful, charismatic as hell, everybody loves him.... and the O.R. nurse ? Killer bod on her, she got bored with accounting, it didn't fulfill her need to contribute....
The LGATs are behaving, in their own ways, shapes, and forms, more akin to money driven psychologic institutions, including the one you had the misfortune to be trapped in, than they are in cases where one receives one on one counseling with a therapist which one is at liberty to walk away from.
Fundamentally, I believe institutions, LGATs or otherwise, become fatally trapped in their own institutional dynamics, where the chief drive is perpetuate the bureacracy while minimizing the accountability of said bureaucracy.
I would also say, based on some personal experience, that there are a sufficient number of psychologists and psychiatrists, social workers and other assorted "healers" who are absolute idiots, if not worse.
Where I become incensed with some of the LGATs is that they ARE doing psychology, in many people the functional equivalent of aggressive clinical psychology, while pretending they aren't.... OK,"pretending" is to kind of a word, lying through their teeth that they aren't, then taking no responsibility for their outcomes...
It's sort of the difference between a mediocre surgeon who passed his exams, did his residency, and now perfoms mediocre surgery, constrained by certain institutional norms, and say, ummm, a guy who ran a successful landscaping business who now feels the need to perform surgery with no further training.... but, he reassures you, not to worry, he's Impeccable... and the anaesthesiologist ? Oh him, he has a pilot's license and he instally bowling alleys, a great guy, real powerful, charismatic as hell, everybody loves him.... and the O.R. nurse ? Killer bod on her, she got bored with accounting, it didn't fulfill her need to contribute....
Suicides that COULD be related to LE but we'll never know
Posted by:
midonov123
()
Date: April 06, 2006 09:21PM
Quote
Acid ReindeerQuote
midonov123
There is absolutely NO comparison to be made!
Presciption drugs are given to patients when the benefits outweights the risks and there is a follow up by psychiatrists to make sure the results are positive. If the response is not as expected, the doctor will adjust the dosage or prescribe a different drug. This is medicine.
you may have this subjective opinion, but the [i:2362115f19]Wall Street Journal[/i:2362115f19] reprints data from a study that indicates antidepressants pose a risk.
the hypothetical example you used involves subjective analysis on the part of both the physician and the person taking the drug. with individual people, you cannot do a double blind study.
The clinical trials and the new FDA initiative proves that medicine works. New treatments or drugs are always subject to re-evaluation and corrective measures can be taken to improve for the future (as is the case here).
However, if you tell an LGAT or LEC leader that their "technology" poses some risks as indicated by French psychiatrist Dr. Abgral's report that was never published by LEC (see [www.prevensectes.com] ), they will refute your argument using their rethoric and say that "you are running a racket", that "you don't trust them", etc ... and in the end, if you have a severe breakdown and suicidal ideas because your life doesn't work, it's NOT because their "technology" has broken your psyche to bits and pieces (even though this is exactly what they claim to do to achieve TRANSFORMATION). They will simply break you down even more saying that if you have suicidal ideas after the destabilizing training they give you, THAT'S YOUR PROBLEM!!!
Like I said before, there is absolutely NO comparison to be made between psychiarty and LGATs. This is not a subjective opinion, this is purely factual. Another subjective opinion will you say?
Suicides that COULD be related to LE but we'll never know
Posted by:
midonov123
()
Date: April 06, 2006 10:19PM
Quote
Hope
This has led me to wonder just how many people suffer psychotic breaks, worse depression or anxiety, and even commit suicide as a result of their participation with LE. They themselves might not put the two together, let alone people who don't understand what LE actually does to people.
Just as a reminder about another suicide case:
[board.culteducation.com]
Suicides that COULD be related to LE but we'll never know
Posted by:
Acid Reindeer
()
Date: April 07, 2006 12:11AM
midonov123, [i:d7d83474a3]none[/i:d7d83474a3] of my posts to this thread have compared the relative merits of LGAT's versus taking psychiatric drugs.
you seem prone, though, to inconsistency. on the one hand, you lament scientific ignorance, on the other, you don't seem troubled by the fact that, while clnical trials have demonstrated dangers connected with antidepressants, that they remain on the market. I can think of a number of reasons for this, by the way. one, the media in the US have ignored the story. two, the power of the pharmaceutical companies. three, the natural reluctance of people to give up a seeming fix, even if the fix doesn't work.
I also, BTW, turned up an article from the [i:d7d83474a3]Psychiatric Times[/i:d7d83474a3] entitled "Antidepressants Versus Placebos: Meaningful Advantages are Lacking".
you seem prone, though, to inconsistency. on the one hand, you lament scientific ignorance, on the other, you don't seem troubled by the fact that, while clnical trials have demonstrated dangers connected with antidepressants, that they remain on the market. I can think of a number of reasons for this, by the way. one, the media in the US have ignored the story. two, the power of the pharmaceutical companies. three, the natural reluctance of people to give up a seeming fix, even if the fix doesn't work.
I also, BTW, turned up an article from the [i:d7d83474a3]Psychiatric Times[/i:d7d83474a3] entitled "Antidepressants Versus Placebos: Meaningful Advantages are Lacking".
Suicides that COULD be related to LE but we'll never know
Posted by:
Gulab Jamon
()
Date: April 07, 2006 12:25AM
I have to agree with Acid Reindeer on this point. Anti-depressants and anti-psychotic drugs are not necessarily proven to be safe and effective. Psychiatrists even admit they're not sure how or why some of these drugs work. The bottom line is that we have no idea what some of these drugs do to the body and mind long-term. No long-term clinical trial has been done on many of the newer ones, and by "long-term", I mean over a period of years.
Suicides that COULD be related to LE but we'll never know
Posted by:
midonov123
()
Date: April 07, 2006 12:50AM
Quote
Acid Reindeer
midonov123, [i:1178c5137e]none[/i:1178c5137e] of my posts to this thread have compared the relative merits of LGAT's versus taking psychiatric drugs.
you seem prone, though, to inconsistency. on the one hand, you lament scientific ignorance, on the other, you don't seem troubled by the fact that, while clnical trials have demonstrated dangers connected with antidepressants, that they remain on the market. I can think of a number of reasons for this, by the way. one, the media in the US have ignored the story. two, the power of the pharmaceutical companies. three, the natural reluctance of people to give up a seeming fix, even if the fix doesn't work.
I also, BTW, turned up an article from the [i:1178c5137e]Psychiatric Times[/i:1178c5137e] entitled "Antidepressants Versus Placebos: Meaningful Advantages are Lacking".
Non ethical behavior in research by pharmaceutical companies is an interesting topic, but this thread was about "suicide and Landmark". I think we are getting off track. All I meant is that comparing the risks for suicide due to improper medication is not to be compared with the suicide risks from participating to LGATs.
BTW, the Nobel Prize in Medicine in 2005 was given to B.J. Marshall and J.R. Warren for their discovery of a bacteria that causes peptic ulcers. They were honored for their
Quote
“tenacity and a prepared mind [to challenge] prevailing dogmas”.
...
"At the time (1982) they were publicly ridiculed by the scientific community for their theory,
...
Another problem was the drug industry—anti-ulcer medications (that relieved the symptoms not the ulcer itself) were very lucrative, and the pharmaceutical companies did not want to lose that income." [www.sciscoop.com]
All this is very interesting, and surely the medical world and pharmaceutical world must clear their own act, but this is taking place through peer reviewing and it is taking place right now as we speak.
No such debate exists that will regulate LGATs and LGATs will continue their unethical behavior unpunished. I'm not prone to inconsistencies, it's only that writing a short text on such a complex issue is limited.
Can't we try to elucidate the "suicidal rate" due to LGATs on this thread instead of putting to trial conventional psychiatry? Drugs, FDA and the pharmaceutical industry is a completely different topic. This is what I mean when I say that no comparison can be made. We are talking about two completely different topics, and the bad things that are going on in one area is no excuse for the unethical and risky business of LGATs.
P.S:
I could add that the Nobel Prize in Medicine 2005 (about peptic ulcers being caused by a bacteria) coincides with the apperance of Tom Cruise on national TV (Matt Lauer show) where he claimed that "psychiatry is a pseudo-science"!!!
Curiously enough, Scientology has always claimed that "peptic ulcers" can be cured by their "auditing" techniques, as if "bacterias" can be eradicated by the sheer application of will !!! This is what I call an inconsistency!
Suicides that COULD be related to LE but we'll never know
Posted by:
Hope
()
Date: April 07, 2006 07:24AM
Could we get back to the topic of this thread.
The person on the other forum who killed himself wasn't on antidepressants, and he wasn't one of the abused in that forum. Some verbal abusers also post on that forum. I went back and read some of his initial posts and don't know if this "breakthrough", which is the word he used, about him being an abuser was after doing the Forum or not. From other posts he has written, and I did not go through all of them, he sounded more emotionally distant than an outright verbal abuser.
The thing we all know about Landmark, however, is that they don't want their participants taking meds, and that illness is a racket, especially mental illness, so with their mind-fvck, it could be he got a pseudo-diagnosis from an Landmark leader, already had a mental illness and possibly stopped taking meds. Since Landmark is not upfront with what they do, survivors of suiciders may never know what happened, and Landmark will continue to get away, basically, with murder.
The person on the other forum who killed himself wasn't on antidepressants, and he wasn't one of the abused in that forum. Some verbal abusers also post on that forum. I went back and read some of his initial posts and don't know if this "breakthrough", which is the word he used, about him being an abuser was after doing the Forum or not. From other posts he has written, and I did not go through all of them, he sounded more emotionally distant than an outright verbal abuser.
The thing we all know about Landmark, however, is that they don't want their participants taking meds, and that illness is a racket, especially mental illness, so with their mind-fvck, it could be he got a pseudo-diagnosis from an Landmark leader, already had a mental illness and possibly stopped taking meds. Since Landmark is not upfront with what they do, survivors of suiciders may never know what happened, and Landmark will continue to get away, basically, with murder.
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