Hello (I had posted this in the cult forum - but it may be best to post it in the "Human Potential" forum)

I am looking for some information or thoughts on Landmark Education’s potential effects on children.

My daughter’s father has recently joined the Landmark Group, and since his first session with the ‘forum’ his behavior has been becoming more and more bizarre. I have done a bit of research on the group, and I admit I don’t know much; but from what I gather the program can have mind altering effects on its followers, and not in a good way.

A bit of history…..

I received a phone call from my ex while he was attending this course mid day from a “Private Name/Private Number”. Now for the past few years our conversations have been nothing more than pick up/drop off plans for our daughter; but when I answered the phone he immediately went into a (what sounded like to me) a sales pitch about how he has become new man. He apologized over and over again for the years of wrong doings, and told me that he knew he was a liar etc etc….This went on for about 10 minutes, until I could no longer listen to the nonsense. Each time I would begin to lambaste him for getting involved with such a ridiculous group he would pause for a few seconds and then come up with some rational totally out of character for him. I am not a paranoid person, but it honestly felt like someone was listening in on the conversation.

Anyways, he asked me a number of times to attend the upcoming forum with him, to which I enthusiastically said thanks but NO thanks! This was pretty much the end of that conversation.

A few hours later he called and spoke with my daughter, and this is what worries me. He stated that he can’t wait to show her all of the new things he has learned, and that everything is going to change. He told her that he was not eating and that he was a new person, and he is going to help her to do the same…..?

Now I know that I am a strong enough person (and parent) to deal with the misguided info that my child can get from her father, but this is different. I want to prepare myself to deal with her questions ahead of time. First of all, does Landmark involve children in its sessions. He has her two week ends per month, and I am worried that he may sign her up to go during that time. Do they starve the children like they starve the adults (the mother in me always worrying about whether or not she is getting fed properly!)

This is THE most bizarre situation we have had to deal with to date….but I want to put an end to it stat.

Any info would help at this point. I am a phone call away from taking a strip off of our local Landmark group, not that it would help!

Thanks! Sorry for the novel length post!

Hi Laura,

From time to time the issue of Landmark and Children arises and below is a link to a thread which in turn has further links on the subject.

[b:9927a5ba15]Pressuring children into Landmark for Teens[/b:9927a5ba15]
[board.culteducation.com]

The sad thing about the time modified version for Young people and Teens Forums is that Landmark makes the course shorter because there is less resistance to thought reform amoung the young. They don't need to be kept up past midnight for the content to sink into their sub conscious mind.

I wish you well.

Oz


Oz

I had a relationship that ended because of my fiancee's involvment with Landmark. One of my closest friends asked if this was something that I would want to raise my children with. I knew that I could never stand by and watch it happen, and I also knew that it would be forced upon our children if we ever had them as her mother has been a LEC devotee since the begining, and it's her dream to have it taught in schools. Truly a sad experience.

I can tell you that there is an agenda by some Lekkies to have the Forum taught in schools, and to children as early as 8 years old.

The only shot you may have is to inform his parents of his intentions for their grand children. I tried this with my fiancees father and I can only hope that he gets through to her.

I wish you the best of luck..make sure that your children do not sign any waivers what so ever. If they don't sign it, then they will not be able to attend.

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Laura19
Hello (I had posted this in the cult forum - but it may be best to post it in the "Human Potential" forum)

I am looking for some information or thoughts on Landmark Education’s potential effects on children.

My daughter’s father has recently joined the Landmark Group, and since his first session with the ‘forum’ his behavior has been becoming more and more bizarre. I have done a bit of research on the group, and I admit I don’t know much; but from what I gather the program can have mind altering effects on its followers, and not in a good way.

A bit of history…..

I received a phone call from my ex while he was attending this course mid day from a “Private Name/Private Number”. Now for the past few years our conversations have been nothing more than pick up/drop off plans for our daughter; but when I answered the phone he immediately went into a (what sounded like to me) a sales pitch about how he has become new man. He apologized over and over again for the years of wrong doings, and told me that he knew he was a liar etc etc….This went on for about 10 minutes, until I could no longer listen to the nonsense. Each time I would begin to lambaste him for getting involved with such a ridiculous group he would pause for a few seconds and then come up with some rational totally out of character for him. I am not a paranoid person, but it honestly felt like someone was listening in on the conversation.

Anyways, he asked me a number of times to attend the upcoming forum with him, to which I enthusiastically said thanks but NO thanks! This was pretty much the end of that conversation.

A few hours later he called and spoke with my daughter, and this is what worries me. He stated that he can’t wait to show her all of the new things he has learned, and that everything is going to change. He told her that he was not eating and that he was a new person, and he is going to help her to do the same…..?

Now I know that I am a strong enough person (and parent) to deal with the misguided info that my child can get from her father, but this is different. I want to prepare myself to deal with her questions ahead of time. First of all, does Landmark involve children in its sessions. He has her two week ends per month, and I am worried that he may sign her up to go during that time. Do they starve the children like they starve the adults (the mother in me always worrying about whether or not she is getting fed properly!)

This is THE most bizarre situation we have had to deal with to date….but I want to put an end to it stat.

Any info would help at this point. I am a phone call away from taking a strip off of our local Landmark group, not that it would help!

Thanks! Sorry for the novel length post!

Use your parental authority and say NO to your ex-husband about enrolling your kids. It is very well documented that Landmark, if not a cult, is a cult-like group (any honest psychologist will agree on this terminology) and it gives participants grandiose delusions that they can create their own reality by the sheer aplplication of will, like create great wealth if you have great positive thoughts or create illness (like cancer) if you have bad thoughts. If anything turns bad in your life, you are guilty and its because you don't live your life as a true Landmarkian!!! If that's not a cult, it's as close as can be.

In a sense, it reinforce in participants their sense of "infantile omnipotence" in total opposition with our common sense about raising children. If you want your kids to become disfunctional, this is the way to go!

Without any hesitation, you must say NO to that nonsense and use all the power that you have (even legal actions - go to your lawyer) to prevent harm being done to your kids!

Read about the psychotic episodes and the suicide cases because of the intense pressure and other nonsense and paradoxical logic - phrases like "remember this is not the truth..." "you're running rackets..." etc ... to confuse your mind and make you doubt about yourself - certainly not the best way to raise kids don't you think? This is unhealthy and it should be made illegal to enroll kids.

It always comes down to this basic question. What are their qualifications for making their claims ? How do they know that what they are teaching is the truth ? How did they test their ideas ? How hard did they try to refute their ideas ?

My impression of them is that they are low quality philosophers doing bad impressions of low quality psychologists. They justify playing with people's minds (the name of their racket, by the way, is "The Ends Justify The Means", or in the immortal words of Josef Dzugashvili, otherwise know to the world as Josef Stalin, "You've Got To Break Some Eggs To Make An Omlette").... which doesn't make them Stalinists, just obdurate narrow minded dumbed down existentialists who think they are doing something akin to The Lord's Work.... as if.

You might ask them this somewhat revealing question. IF their "technology" (they like to call their scripted rap a "technology", it sounds so much more concrete and scientific and factual that way.... as in, The Technology.... got it ? Like Newton and gravitation, Einstein and relativity, Erhard and The Technology! Woof !! Woff Woof!! How hot is that ?.... ) so anyway, IF their technology is all that they say it is, why HASN'T it been universally accepted as the great breakthrough that they said it is ?

Their Youth At Risk program seems to have had moderate success at best... when I did the EST program, Six Day and everything else, they talked nonstop about how the Youth At Risk project was going to change the urban landscape with all these ghetto kids having breakthroughs, and there was the Hunger Project that was going to eliminate hunger by "creating the possibility of a shift in listening"...

So, IF their technology is what it claims to be, and they've had at least 20 years to state their case, WHY aren't schools, universities, prisons, churches, synagogues, third world governments, etc. knocking their doors down to get their hands on this "technology" ????

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nutrino
You might ask them this somewhat revealing question. IF their "technology" (they like to call their scripted rap a "technology", it sounds so much more concrete and scientific and factual that way.... as in, The Technology.... got it ? Like Newton and gravitation, Einstein and relativity, Erhard and The Technology! Woof !! Woff Woof!! How hot is that ?.... ) so anyway, IF their technology is all that they say it is, why HASN'T it been universally accepted as the great breakthrough that they said it is ?

It appears very clearly to me, using their own terminology, that what they claim to have developed is a "Mind Transformation Technology".

Now, what in the world could a "Mind Transformation Technology" be? Supposedly, it's not "Thought Reform", it's not "Coercive Persuasion", it's not "Brainwashing", it's not even "Hard Sales's pitch" according to Landmark. No no no! It's a unique "Mind Transformation Technology" to "Break Down Your Psyche And Rebuild It" Trust us. We are expert at breaking down psyche. But, "Remember This Is Not The Truth" !!! Get It?

I think I'll run to the center this minute. I need a quick fix because my life isn't working. I must be running a racket (LOL) !!!

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nutrino
IF their technology is all that they say it is, why HASN'T it been universally accepted as the great breakthrough that they said it is ?

1. We just don't understand
2. We're trapped in our objective discourse rackets
3. We haven't experienced it for ourselves
4. It's "outside the box" for us (I love this one)
5. We're afraid (the dominant emotion of the unenlightened)

These are the things I've heard from my Lekkie friend, intro leaders and others. :roll: This is always good for a hearty laugh.

Typical LGAT fashion, the reason it hasn't gained universal acceptance is OUR fault, not any problems with their views. They can't survive the free marketplace of ideas, so they have to do it MLM style.

-lightwolf

For any of you who may be interested, I did some research about the guidelines for accepting children into the program and this is what I came up with.

Landmark only accepts children to the program when both custodial parents consent. Now after I received the email back stating this, I called up my local Landmark group and spoke with a "Family Counsellor". I told her upfront that there was NO way in hell that my child would attend the program, but I wanted to make sure of it. She repeated again that both parents would have to consent.

So, I asked her how they go about confirming whether or not a parent had custody? What if I walked in and said my ex was dead, so sign her up? She then replied that they interview the children extensively before entering the forum (which didn't make me feel any better - I am sure they can convince a young child of almost anything in an "interview" like situation) I am still worried about the possibility of her father enrolling her without my consent, although at this point I know I can't do much about it (other than I told the lady to write down my child’s name, and if ANYONE attempts to sign her up she will have to deal with me!)

During this same call, I also asked her out of curiosity what are relatives to do if the person attending the forum have gone off the deep end. My ex has definitely 'lost it', and we are concerned about him and the long/short term affects this may have. He seems to be making peace with people, when all he is really doing is pass on his guilt and pain to everyone around him. He has said a number of times that he doesn't know what he is living for.

I asked the Landmark rep if they had a program to counsel people OUT of the program. She said no, and that I should tell him to speak with his 'coach', which made me laugh. That's just what he needs, more Landmark.

After I expressed all of my contempt for the program, she asked me to attend a session......HA!

I am baffled by the fact that a program like this is accepted into society and allowed to continue practising under the umbrella of 'helping mankind' (all for the low low price of $500) It's a joke!!!

My ex has signed up for the 'advanced' course, so I am sure I will be back soon with more questions!

Let me pause a moment to barf.

Today I was reading a blurb on EST-Landmark thinking... what struck me is that is appears to regress to the great bifurcation of Faith and Reason that happened during the Enlightenment... although it positions itself, or frames itself, as a quantum leap in thought, the image that comes to mind is that reasoning and rational understanding constitute ordinary three dimensional macro-space, and they appear to be suggesting that they have discovered a way of generating wormholes that permit faster than the speed of light travel to distant regions... at least that is the tachyonic, quasi-LR Hubbard, mind energy Uber Alles sci-fi zen Kabala infomercial TONE of their whole transformative dreamscape.... by tweaking the will just so one breaks quantum wind and is propelled to uncharted regions where anything is possible.... or did they just forget to take their meds ?

So, fine, whatever... when you pull out your magnifying glass and read the philosophical fine print (and that, friends and neighbors, is what good philosophers do, they read, and re-read the fine print of "common knowledge") a very different picture emerges...

At one of the signal point of the Enlightenment, early on, Francis Bacon succinctly stated that "knowledge is power"... meaning, the more accurately you know, the wider the net of your learning, the more detailed your knowledge, the more operationally specific your knowledge, the more you understand the patterns, sequences, components, motivation, consequences, dynamics of things, the better you can explicate them so others can understand... the less you rely on unquestioned authority, the less you rely on superstition and dogma, the greater your POWER will be...

This directly collided with the establishement philosophy that power derived from "inherent worth" or divine dispensation. It was the new thing.
Power was a direct function of the quality of one's knowledge.

So, I am reading a blurb speaking to the contents of an EST inspired book, and their (the author's, presumably parroting the thought processes behind EST and Landmark) is that FREEDOM (not knowledge) is power, BECAUSE "true freedom" arises from a ground plane of nothingness, a sort of "day of creation minus 1", when all was darkness and void, and to fully grasp, or tap into this condition of Source was to (somehow, someway...one day... somewhere over the rainbow, waaaaaay up hiiiiigh) was to experience the primal condition of Possibility, where letting go of the nasty, icky old Ego and sense of self permitted a Kirkegaardian leap of faith into this great lake of light and possibility, i.e. Source, where anybody could manifest more or less anything....

"Oh Lord won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz.... my friends all drive porsches, I must make amends..."

Very sweet, a delicious daydream indeed, except it is pretty much a complete load of shit.

"Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from my friends, so Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz ?"

Once you Get, in unvarnished philosophical nitty gritty realism, what a steaming pantload of bizarro unreality is holding up this entire Transformational Technology illusion, you do begin to wonder.... do these poor souls have the first idea of what they are getting themselves into ? That glowing orifice into hypespace is transporting them unawares back to the 16th century, before the West got hip to the scientific method ? Would make a good treatement for a sci-fi scriptwriter though... coming soon to theaters near you.

"Oh Lord, won't you buy me a color T.V. ? Dialing For Dollars is trying to find me... I will wait for delivery each day until three, so Lord won't you buy me a color T.V.?"

Pretty please ?

Nutrino - Not only is your last discourse entertaining, it provides some further insight into what power is and what it is not and how Landmark has duped the poor Grads into thinking it is FREEDOM. Further, this freedom is rationalised in Landmark constructs through the deconstruction of object and meaning.

You have provided insight into how Landmark philosophy propells human understanding back in time, prior to the enlightenment era of the great philosophers of the 18th century and beyond whom gave us the understanding that knowledge is indeed power, not freedom in a black hole.

Further to this, and in another thread, [board.culteducation.com] - Landmark in the workplace, issues were raised in how Landmark works in business. There are much quoted statistics of the BHP Steel New Zealand Case where after Landmark consultants weilded their stuff, key performance indicators of efficiency improved remarkably. WHY? I hypothesise that Landmark produces a sociological retardation in the workplace, supressing the the workers own source of knowledge and identity and replacing it for the SOURCE, Landmark/the employer. The employee projects the superiority of the Landmark Forum Leader onto the employer who now becomes the source and summit of the employee's working existance and the bottom line ends in employee efficiency and anything but freedom for the employee.

We may need to pick this discussion up in the other thread as this thread is for Landmark and Children.

Oz