Anyone have some helpful insight?
Posted by:
nutrino
()
Date: February 12, 2006 01:34PM
I would submit that aliveness is one of the most fundamental qualities of life that we all seek... it is a near cellular celebration of being. I have a theory that true aliveness happens when one is both allowed the autonomous uniqueness of the self AND has the healthy inter-dependency of a supportive community. When the self image and the community as a whole are free of neurotic distortions (or reasonably so) one can realize one's selfhood to the fullest. I feel that many LGATs and cults deliver a version of this that is both too intense, in that they make unreasonable and often pointless demands on the psyche of the participant, AND impoverished, in that their theories and worldviews and specialized vocabularies cannot embrace the genuine complexity of life. So the participants replace the mellowed understanding of a broadly developed philosophy with a high intensity "pins and needles" thought system, that initially gives the impression of depth through a false sense of clarity (which oversimplifications do, at first,... ask any teenager for an opinion)
and a kind of amphetamine like "crank" of energy that substitutes for *close reasoning*.... LGATs most definitely don't do *close reasoning*... they do do something like *clang association* (in clinical settings, schizophrenics are gifted *clang associators*... which leads one to wonder...)
and a kind of amphetamine like "crank" of energy that substitutes for *close reasoning*.... LGATs most definitely don't do *close reasoning*... they do do something like *clang association* (in clinical settings, schizophrenics are gifted *clang associators*... which leads one to wonder...)
Anyone have some helpful insight?
Posted by:
elena
()
Date: February 12, 2006 03:27PM
Quote
skeptic
Yes, I realized that what was being taught in the LGAT I was in was dysfunctional ways of coping with REAL LIFE. Self-deception tops the list of coping strategies. We were taught how to lie, first and foremost, to ourselves. It was called "reframing". We were taught to lie about the world around us. We were taught how to dodge, deny, avoid, evade REAL LIFE (the messy parts). We were taught to fabricate a reality that suited us, nevermind evidence to the contrary! We were taught how to live crippled lives, based on the lies we told ourselves.
Perhaps the more investetd in the lies people are, the more difficult it is to see through them, the more the lies seem like truth. 2+2=5.
All the lies crashed in on me the day REAL LIFE hit me hard. When my father died I started to see through the lies in a real big way. It was his death that was the beginning of the end of my years in the LGAT trance.
skeptic
Skeptic, you've put this so well.
Steven Pressman pointed out the Werner Erhard most certainly would have read and loved this bit of crockery from Napoleon Hill's book:
"It is a well-known fact that one comes, finally, to
believe whatever one repeats to one's self, whether the
statement be true or false. If a man repeats a lie over
and over, he will eventually accept the lie as truth.
Moreover, he will believe it to be the truth."
Napoleon Hill, "Think and Grow Rich," 1937"
Ellen
Anyone have some helpful insight?
Posted by:
leftcoast8
()
Date: February 21, 2006 10:17AM
So, it's now official.. She and I are no longer friends. She didn't have the guts or courtesy to talk to me in person, or even over the phone. I got an email. Some fine excerpts with some very, let's call it "calculated" (read: forced/cult) language (the spelling errors are hers):
So do I just give up the ghost here?
Quote
I do not want to change you or who you are. I think you are an incerdible and amazing woman. I've said it before, and I truely do think you are perfect and complete just the way you are. You do not need to change. No one does.
Quote
I do not communicate with you. I read what you say, I listen to what you say, and no matter how many times I read it or re-hear it I just don't seem to get it. No matter how many times I say something, I never seem to be able to feel heard. We communicate very differently. Our communication styles don't work well together.
So do I just give up the ghost here?
Anyone have some helpful insight?
Posted by:
tywebb
()
Date: February 21, 2006 10:41PM
WOW..it's really frightening to see that you were told almost verbatim the same thing that I heard from my fiancee.
Lekkies are drones and pod people, alienating themselves from anyone who does not do the forum. It's impossible to have a rational conversation about the fraud called Landmark with a lekkie.
I would have to say that it is time to give up the ghost, or get her to an intervention with influential people in her life..or get her to a cult de programmer.
Best of luck.
Lekkies are drones and pod people, alienating themselves from anyone who does not do the forum. It's impossible to have a rational conversation about the fraud called Landmark with a lekkie.
I would have to say that it is time to give up the ghost, or get her to an intervention with influential people in her life..or get her to a cult de programmer.
Best of luck.
Anyone have some helpful insight?
Posted by:
elena
()
Date: February 21, 2006 11:19PM
Quote
leftcoast8
So do I just give up the ghost here?
I would distance myself. It might be a while before the "high" wears off and reality begins to set in. I don't think anyone can be successfully deprogrammed until they begin to entertain doubts or discomfort about their involvement and that might come only after a few bad experiences.
I think the best information from former members here suggests that maintaining an open, friendly, and non-Landmark presense where she can seek solace, information delivered in a non-threatening manner, or an outsider's view is the best thing you can do for her.
Having said that, I wouldn't be above "planting a few negative seeds," either. Though she'll have pre-programmed responses to any criticism you offer, the information might take hold anyway. Landmarkers hate being reminded that their leader/founder used some of what he learned in scientology to start his own group. (It's pretty funny to me that their "defensive shield" will sometimes even expand to protect the Co$ and L. Ron Hubbard.)
Ellen
Anyone have some helpful insight?
Posted by:
lightwolf
()
Date: February 21, 2006 11:57PM
leftcoast,
You have my heartfelt empathies.
I couldn't have said this better. It is frightening. I have heard and still am hearing the same #&%$, especially "I never seem to be able to feel heard." B.S. I'm sure you have heard her. Of course, I'm sure she is "hearing" everything you're saying, right?!? :wink: If she is like my friend, she is equating heard with agreement, and need the agreement to feel accepted. At Landmark, she is "heard", no matter what is said, and they get the acceptance they crave. My friend as admitted it's all about her lack of self-acceptance. I believe LGATs prey on that.
Hearing another such story makes me livid -- but also affirms what I'm seeing in my own life. So thanks for sharing your story.
Whatever you decide to do, just realize that you won't convince her of anything. I would bet that while she cries that you don't listen to her, she has made no effort to hear your concerns. That will not change. Until she has her doubts, and wants to hear, she won't listen to anybody. So you have to ask yourself if you're willing to stick around and be treated poorly while you give the doubts a chance to surface. Nobody can answer that for you. It depends upon your level of personal committment to her. If it is low (which is OK), then leaving might be better. If it is high, then maybe sticking around is possible. Whatever you do, make sure you have some boundaries, so you don't get trapped by the savior complex or enmeshed in this stuff with her. If you start getting caught in these traps, then time to leave.
Good luck.
-lightwolf
You have my heartfelt empathies.
Quote
tywebb
WOW..it's really frightening to see that you were told almost verbatim the same thing that I heard from my fiancee.
I couldn't have said this better. It is frightening. I have heard and still am hearing the same #&%$, especially "I never seem to be able to feel heard." B.S. I'm sure you have heard her. Of course, I'm sure she is "hearing" everything you're saying, right?!? :wink: If she is like my friend, she is equating heard with agreement, and need the agreement to feel accepted. At Landmark, she is "heard", no matter what is said, and they get the acceptance they crave. My friend as admitted it's all about her lack of self-acceptance. I believe LGATs prey on that.
Hearing another such story makes me livid -- but also affirms what I'm seeing in my own life. So thanks for sharing your story.
Whatever you decide to do, just realize that you won't convince her of anything. I would bet that while she cries that you don't listen to her, she has made no effort to hear your concerns. That will not change. Until she has her doubts, and wants to hear, she won't listen to anybody. So you have to ask yourself if you're willing to stick around and be treated poorly while you give the doubts a chance to surface. Nobody can answer that for you. It depends upon your level of personal committment to her. If it is low (which is OK), then leaving might be better. If it is high, then maybe sticking around is possible. Whatever you do, make sure you have some boundaries, so you don't get trapped by the savior complex or enmeshed in this stuff with her. If you start getting caught in these traps, then time to leave.
Good luck.
-lightwolf
Anyone have some helpful insight?
Posted by:
tywebb
()
Date: February 27, 2006 05:00AM
Quote
fleur
I have been involved in the Landmark forum conversation for nearly three years. I left it for a while though and have recently gone back to attend an integrity seminar. It was good to be back. I saw huge ammounts of possibility for me and my life, my partner and our future. I took it all on, but when I told my boy friend about the course, and he looked up on line and found all you guys and your experiences he got crazy worried and concerned. i told him not to worry and he told me to look at this sight which I have now and registered so I can chat.
I think there is something great about the work, the insights, the breakthroughs that people have, it is very moving, BUT on the other hand it is dominating, and there are queries that I never had answered.
I was concerned about the money thing too seeing as so many people volunteer their time.
I need some advice from people who have done it thought it had good points as well as bad.
Pls help,
Cheers :roll: :?
Anyone have some helpful insight?
Posted by:
looking for help
()
Date: February 27, 2006 06:34AM
Quote
tywebbQuote
fleur
I have been involved in the Landmark forum conversation for nearly three years. I left it for a while though and have recently gone back to attend an integrity seminar. It was good to be back. I saw huge ammounts of possibility for me and my life, my partner and our future. I took it all on, but when I told my boy friend about the course, and he looked up on line and found all you guys and your experiences he got crazy worried and concerned. i told him not to worry and he told me to look at this sight which I have now and registered so I can chat.
I think there is something great about the work, the insights, the breakthroughs that people have, it is very moving, BUT on the other hand it is dominating, and there are queries that I never had answered.
I was concerned about the money thing too seeing as so many people volunteer their time.
I need some advice from people who have done it thought it had good points as well as bad.
Pls help,
Cheers :roll: :?
Even as negative about Landmark as I am in an effort to be "fair" I do personally know one person who attended the Forum and actually got some good. This person is a professional who took the course at the suggestion of a consultant he had hired for his office (actually according to him "she worried the hell out of me until I did it.) He left the graduation night when he saw it was an effort to enroll in further courses and get others involved. He did go home and his small children told their mom "dad is talking strange and needs to stop" so she put a stop to his new lingo, and he politely told the lekkies the course was OK but in no event would he take more. Ten years later he says what he took from the course was to take responsibility for yourself and you can achieve great things.
Unfortunately a large portion of those who get invoved get totally sucked in and this group literally takes over their lives as in the case of my loved one and many, many more. LEC does not want people like my above mentioned friend who is emotionally stable enough to listen to people who knew him and stop the foolishness before it got started.
Beware of any program who uses the time for which you are paying them to tell you why you should ENROLL all your friends and family and why you should enroll yourself in further courses.
Last but not least to me one of the most important questions is "WHERE DOES THE MONEY GO?" Someone, somewhere is making a fortune!!!!!
Anyone have some helpful insight?
Posted by:
leftcoast8
()
Date: February 28, 2006 10:01AM
Quote
lightwolf
Whatever you decide to do, just realize that you won't convince her of anything. I would bet that while she cries that you don't listen to her, she has made no effort to hear your concerns. That will not change. Until she has her doubts, and wants to hear, she won't listen to anybody. So you have to ask yourself if you're willing to stick around and be treated poorly while you give the doubts a chance to surface. Nobody can answer that for you. It depends upon your level of personal committment to her. If it is low (which is OK), then leaving might be better. If it is high, then maybe sticking around is possible. Whatever you do, make sure you have some boundaries, so you don't get trapped by the savior complex or enmeshed in this stuff with her. If you start getting caught in these traps, then time to leave.
Good luck.
-lightwolf
I wanted to thank everyone for being so willing to share. I was waiting until this past weekend to reply to what some of you had said. My friend went down to LA for another weekend long graduate course (or whatever it was), and I figured I'd wait and see if I got any of those middle-of-the-night epiphany phone calls. I'm not sure whether it's a positive thing, but I didn't get any such phone call. Before she left, I tried to ask her how much of her decision was influenced by Landmark. Those were my exact words; I didn't want to put any sort of spin on things. I didn't get any sort of response, which, to me at least, means the entire decision was Landmark-based, and she perhaps doesn't want to face that. Then again, that's just speculation.
My objective right now is to give her whatever space she needs, and make myself non-threatening in her eyes so that if/when she starts to come out of the LGAT trance, she'll have someone safe to talk to. However, the friendship isn't something I feel it's worth trying to fight for at this point.
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