Hello, everyone. Please bear with me as I plow through an introduction to this. I'll be as concise as possible!

I recently began working for a company whose management participates regularly in LE. I was cajoled into attending a meeting, but smelled a rat before I even entered the conference room. There was something so strange about how everyone at work encouraged me to attend, which added to my mounting wariness. Also, thanks to another thread here, I realized how easily an "uneducated" (i.e., someone who has not read up on LE's practices) can be sucked in; one of my coworkers has encouraged me several times to rent [i:756c0831a0]What the Bleep Do We Know?[/i:756c0831a0] Without this site, I would have never understood the connection between her LE participation and the movie recommendation.

Anyway, I digress. I attended the introductory seminar, armed with the resolve not to register; I attended more to appease my boss than anything else. Even if I [i:756c0831a0]had [/i:756c0831a0]been sucked in, my husband and I can't afford such frivolity right now. We sat through an uncomfortable 3-hour lecture (I was surprised by how few opportunities there were for the guests to speak, with the exception of a few exercises that involved discussion with the people who had invited us, and my bladder was practically throbbing by the time we got a break). They were extremely interested in who was whose guest and why people who had attended of their own volition had come.

This is how they tried to snare us: the forum leader put up a Venn-type diagram on the chalkboard and told us that the key to most of our problems was the blurry line between "what actually happened" and our "interpretation/story about what happened." There was a complete disregard of logical thought, which jarred me; while most of us do blow things out of proportion from time to time, it is our interpretation of a painful event that prevents us from repeating our mistakes or perpetuating involvement with toxic people. Not so, according to my forum leader. At one point, the people who invited guests were asked to approach us and tell us why they had invited us; my colleague got teary as she explained a minute incident in her past that she had misinterpreted (symptomatic of the LE tendency to dredge up past hurt, however insignificant, to "finish" them) and how she sees me doing great things with my life and wants me to realize my full potential since I am in a transitional phase. I listened with a friendly ear, but knew that my $500 was doing just fine right where it was, safe in my bank account.

Toward the end, there was a 25-minute "registration period," during which the forum leader accosted my husband and me TWICE to ask if we were going to register, and the person who invited me asked several times, too. I made the mistake of admitting financial difficulty, since in most [i:756c0831a0]normal[/i:756c0831a0] spheres, people are sympathetic to hardship, but the forum leader kept advising us to "figure it out" and that there would always be an excuse not to do it. He said that, as young, married people, we "needed this," which was another big, fat red flag. I finally started avoiding eye contact with him as he passed and made sure my checkbook was buried deep in my purse.

After reading this site (which I found by typing "landmark cult" into a search engine, because that was exactly what I felt I had encountered), I feel good knowing that I had was not sucked in by something that, whether a cult or not, employs questionable practices and possible mind control.

[b:756c0831a0]Now, the predicament:[/b:756c0831a0] I have been in psychotherapy for 2-1/2 years for social anxiety and generalized anxiety and have done very well. Recently, I learned that my therapist is a Landmarkian and, in retrospect, have identified certain Landmarkian components that I heard in the intro seminar in her advice (not often enough to be truly alarming, but enough for me to start questioning things). The two biggest things I recognized: the phrase "being present to..." and the admonition to stop the soap opera drama of life (she calls it being "gothic," since I am an aspiring writer and literary critic). HOWEVER, she has never encouraged me to dredge up old heartaches and call people I haven't in years, nor has she ever suggested that life is meaningless or that I should excuse the bad behavior of others.

When I told her recently that I was going to Landmark with my husband and my boss (with whom my therapist is acquainted through the program), she thought it was a great idea. She didn't push the "hard sell," but she said it would be great for my husband and me and give us a lot to talk about.

Long story short: what do you all think? Is it healthy for me to continue psychotherapy with a forum leader? Is it possible that I've been more "indoctrinated" than I know, or is it possible for an LE graduate to separate LE principles and CBT methods?

I appreciate all comments/suggestions!

Phew! What a post! First I'd just like to say, well done for resisting their tried and true tactics of 'enrollment!'

Secondly a question, is your psychologist a just a customer of landmark, someone in management or a forum leader? How deep this woman is in could be important in determining just how at risk you are being treated by her.

The reason Landmark is dangerous is because it establishes a relationship of dependance between the individual and the group, to the point where the dogma becomes central to that person, and they will defend it fiercely. All of this serves to make the group prosperous and gather more followers. Not only this, but the process of brainwashing occurs over an extremely short amount of time, such a rapid paradigm shift can be dangerous for a person's mental state, their self esteem and their health.

Since you are not taking part in the group, it can't hurt you directly, however the possibility is still there that your relationship with the therapist might become similarly unhealthy, especially if she is using Landmark principals in your therapy. Even if she is not, the possibility is still there. I've had a similar experience with a Landmarkian friend of mine who has been a part of their group for a number of years.

My naturopath was heavily involved in Landmark and at the end of the first or second visit, after getting my history, casually mentioned that his "friend" had gone to something called "Landmark Forum" and got a lot out of it. He didn't mentioned LF again for a year and a half and then it became a high-pressure selling job. His confusing "therapy" prior to pushing me into the Forum did a lot of damage. He was using LE "technology" on his patients, but not telling them, and since he believed that everything is a racket, he misdiagnosed me, only reluctantly giving me medicine that did a lot of damage.

What I don't like about your therapist is that you only recently discovered she is Landmarkian. How did you find out? I think it would be good for you to review on your own, not with her, what progress you've made in the 2 years you've been seeing her. Now that you have mentioned the Forum to her, she might feel a comraderie that will be damaging. She might utilize LE technology now that she thinks you are open to it. While Landmark borrows from many schools of thought, for instance, "being present" is not something new, they certainly can twist something so simple into something vile.

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This is how they tried to snare us: the forum leader put up a Venn-type diagram on the chalkboard and told us that the key to most of our problems was the blurry line between "what actually happened" and our "interpretation/story about what happened."

Welcome to the wonderous wacky world of Crap Logic. Now think about the glaring inconsistency in their presentation. They, on one hand, hold to the idea that ALL that there can be are interpretations... which means that the concept of something "actually happening" is false (in their worldview)... so in LECthink, nothing CAN "actually happen", all there can be are interpretations... allright, we'll take them at their word, that's what they believe.... right ?

Thanks for sharing. We got it.

Then, VOILA! , they go about insisting that, noooo... we take that all back, that's not what we really meant.... there is, after all, something that DID "actually happen".... it wasn't a function of your interpretation, your interpretation isn't valid, you see, because it isn't what "actually happened"....

But, Mr. Trainer sir, if all we have are our stories, our narratives, the databases of experiences in our heads, the maps of reality we've built up over a lifetime, then how can we run around talking about what actually happened ?

Oh, bear with me, this gets better....

The next major conceptual bombshell they've got aimed at your prefrontal lobes (the things they take out when they perfom lobotomies) is that BECAUSE there is nothing BUT interpretation, and BECAUSE the mind creates its own realities, the mind is always (whether you are conscious of it or not) always and forever "at cause".... never, never, never "at effect"....

So based on this nutcase philosophy, there can't be an "actually happened", only a bunch of minds simultaneously creating this illusion which we take for reality...

But, silly us, we are expecting logical consistency from these geeks ?

Thank you so much for your responses, everyone!

I have actually been doing a lot of thinking over the past few days about my progress with my therapist, and have concluded that she really hasn't introduced any Landmarkian principles into my actual treatment. I am not certain, but she may be a forum leader; however, beyond just mentioning the programming casually in that one conversation, she has never employed the "hard sell" tactics that other forum leaders seem to use. I will only be with her for a few more months, as my husband and I are relocating this summer, so I will certainly be on guard and more aware than ever.

I actually asked a lot of my friends if they had heard about this program and was alarmed by how many had either heard of it or had known people who had participated in a forum. Most of them had heard "excellent" things about the program, and I pointed them toward this site and a few others to read some of the personal accounts of participants. They changed their minds quickly! I would hate to see a friend or family member get sucked in by this. There's something so Orwellian about it, something so mind-numbing and hollow that it makes me actually [i:8629531b23]grateful[/i:8629531b23] to be emotional, sensitive, and melodramatic sometimes...it's part of what makes me human instead of some programmed automaton!

From what I've seen in my limited experience, the forum disguises itself as something great, and the high price of enrollment keeps the intelligentsia/white collars in and the lower middle class/blue collars out. Also, when would-be participants see that doctors and lawyers and professionals are all members, it lends a false sense of authenticity to the whole thing. The scariest thing is the articles I've read about corporations utilizing the forum as a training tool. This is how movements like this gain widespread activity and simultaneously stay under the radar.

Thanks so much for all the great advice, and for bearing with me during my behemoth first post![/i]

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MercurialMere
Hello, everyone. Please bear with me as I plow through an introduction to this. I'll be as concise as possible!

I recently began working for a company whose management participates regularly in LE. I was cajoled into attending a meeting, but smelled a rat before I even entered the conference room.

Lucky you for having the instinct to recognize a con job before they got their hooks into you. They are trained to look searchingly into your eyes or stare longingly into your eyes to destabilize or seduce you - normal human behavior usually but they use the tactic for commercial purposes. They are also trained to ask probing, deeply personal questions to find something to hook into.

Quote

There was something so strange about how everyone at work encouraged me to attend, which added to my mounting wariness. Also, thanks to another thread here, I realized how easily an "uneducated" (i.e., someone who has not read up on LE's practices) can be sucked in; one of my coworkers has encouraged me several times to rent [i:92ddef9014]What the Bleep Do We Know?[/i:92ddef9014] Without this site, I would have never understood the connection between her LE participation and the movie recommendation.

They've been called "pod people" and "Stepford people" for obvious reasons. They use ordinary influence and persuasion tricks in addition to more sinister, covert methods to get you interested, curious, optimistic, or just willing to take a look or "try it on."

Quote

Anyway, I digress. I attended the introductory seminar, armed with the resolve not to register; I attended more to appease my boss than anything else. Even if I [i:92ddef9014]had [/i:92ddef9014]been sucked in, my husband and I can't afford such frivolity right now. We sat through an uncomfortable 3-hour lecture (I was surprised by how few opportunities there were for the guests to speak, with the exception of a few exercises that involved discussion with the people who had invited us, and my bladder was practically throbbing by the time we got a break). They were extremely interested in who was whose guest and why people who had attended of their own volition had come.

They know if you abide by their initial "rules" the likelihood is greater that you will go along with more and more of their directive. If you have identified yourself as willing, compliant, and cooperative you are just the right type for their "volunteer" labor program.

Quote

This is how they tried to snare us: the forum leader put up a Venn-type diagram on the chalkboard and told us that the key to most of our problems was the blurry line between "what actually happened" and our "interpretation/story about what happened." There was a complete disregard of logical thought, which jarred me; while most of us do blow things out of proportion from time to time, it is our interpretation of a painful event that prevents us from repeating our mistakes or perpetuating involvement with toxic people. Not so, according to my forum leader. At one point, the people who invited guests were asked to approach us and tell us why they had invited us; my colleague got teary as she explained a minute incident in her past that she had misinterpreted (symptomatic of the LE tendency to dredge up past hurt, however insignificant, to "finish" them) and how she sees me doing great things with my life and wants me to realize my full potential since I am in a transitional phase. I listened with a friendly ear, but knew that my $500 was doing just fine right where it was, safe in my bank account.

Watch out! They know people are more vulnerable when they are in a "transitional" phase.

Quote

Toward the end, there was a 25-minute "registration period," during which the forum leader accosted my husband and me TWICE to ask if we were going to register, and the person who invited me asked several times, too. I made the mistake of admitting financial difficulty, since in most [i:92ddef9014]normal[/i:92ddef9014] spheres, people are sympathetic to hardship, but the forum leader kept advising us to "figure it out" and that there would always be an excuse not to do it. He said that, as young, married people, we "needed this," which was another big, fat red flag. I finally started avoiding eye contact with him as he passed and made sure my checkbook was buried deep in my purse.

"What's the rest of your life worth?" That's their standard retort. They know how to manipulate any information you give so be very careful about what you tell them. Or just be sure they will use it against you and prepare for that.

Quote

After reading this site (which I found by typing "landmark cult" into a search engine, because that was exactly what I felt I had encountered), I feel good knowing that I had was not sucked in by something that, whether a cult or not, employs questionable practices and possible mind control.

Though they've made lots of effort to disguise themselves as a "mainstream" motivational, self-improvement, self-awareness, life-enhancement, "educational" organisation, their roots are in a much darker place that includes all sorts of liars, crooks, scam artists, used-car salesmen, criminals, predators, con-men, and other sociopaths.

Quote

[b:92ddef9014]Now, the predicament:[/b:92ddef9014] I have been in psychotherapy for 2-1/2 years for social anxiety and generalized anxiety and have done very well. Recently, I learned that my therapist is a Landmarkian and, in retrospect, have identified certain Landmarkian components that I heard in the intro seminar in her advice (not often enough to be truly alarming, but enough for me to start questioning things). The two biggest things I recognized: the phrase "being present to..." and the admonition to stop the soap opera drama of life (she calls it being "gothic," since I am an aspiring writer and literary critic). HOWEVER, she has never encouraged me to dredge up old heartaches and call people I haven't in years, nor has she ever suggested that life is meaningless or that I should excuse the bad behavior of others.

When I told her recently that I was going to Landmark with my husband and my boss (with whom my therapist is acquainted through the program), she thought it was a great idea. She didn't push the "hard sell," but she said it would be great for my husband and me and give us a lot to talk about.

Long story short: what do you all think? Is it healthy for me to continue psychotherapy with a forum leader? Is it possible that I've been more "indoctrinated" than I know, or is it possible for an LE graduate to separate LE principles and CBT methods?

I appreciate all comments/suggestions!

Personally, I'd make quick tracks out of there. I'd find someone familiar with these types of "LGATs" who could sort out the wheat from the chaff. Sure, they include lots of standard psychotherapeutic stuff, but it's all mixed in with weird, unsound, bizarre, and potentially dangerous material. I suppose it's possible for someone to tune out the bad stuff and maintain their critical thinking during the "programming" but why take that risk? Even educating yourself beforehard mightn't immunize you from their tricks. And who knows what little hidden time-bombs you might inadvertantly take home. I'd stay far, far away from any therapist who recommends these groups. The fact that they are supposed to exclude anyone who has or is seeing a psychotherapist must give this one pause, don't you think? Personal growth or development should direct one towards lesser narcissism, not greater. And what they call "responsibility" is really a form of grandiosity and reflective of the grandiose egos of the types of men who start these cults.



Ellen

In Case You Were Wondering How They Come Up With This Stuff Dep't:

found on the net:

"Some of the most interesting people I know of have suffered a severe
head injury of one sort or another. Ellen G. White, foundress of the
Second Day Adventists was struck in the face with a rock as a child
and remained unconscious for days. Werner Erhard fell from a second
story fire escape onto a concrete sidewalk before age 5. Jean
Houston, author and psychic to Hilary Clinton suffered a head injury
in college and 4 months later was visited by her future self from 20
years ahead. Alleged psychic Peter Hurkos fell 4 stories from a
ladder while painting a house in Holland in 1941. John C. Lilly M.D.
fell out of a tree onto his head and had a conversation with his
guardian angel before returning to his body. And some folks just get
really loaded over and over and over."

Seems that little Jack (we wasn't Werner yet) was in a coma for some days with his head injury... and the rest, as they say, is history...

And Now We Get Down To Brass Tacks dep't:

also found on the net:

"He attributed the founding of the est training only to his transformational experience on a freeway in California. According to Erhard, "it did not happen in time and space . . .I realized I knew nothing -- I realized I knew everything . . .I realized I was not my emotions or thoughts, my ideas, my intellect, my perception, [nor] my beliefs, what I did or accomplished or achieved. I wasn't what I had done right or wrong . . .I was simply the space, the creator, the source of all that stuff. I experienced Self as Self in a direct and unmediated way. I didn't just experience Self. I became Self . . . I am I am."(19) (emphasis mine)"

Yeah, me too. I am a Yam I am.

LOL...


You and Popeye!


"I yam what I yam."




[www.bcdb.com]




Ellen

Truthiness Voted 2005 Word of the Year:

In its 16th annual words of the year vote, the American Dialect Society voted truthiness as the word of the year. Recently popularized on the Colbert Report, a satirical mock news show on the Comedy Central television channel, truthiness refers to the quality of preferring concepts or facts one wishes to be true, rather than concepts or facts known to be true. As Stephen Colbert put it, “I don’t trust books. They’re all fact, no heart.” Other meanings of the word date as far back as 1824.