lets talk about abuse
Posted by: patrick-darcy ()
Date: May 08, 2003 04:50AM

I have been involved with LE for 2 years now. Before that I spent 4 years in an acting conservatory and I can tell you that the exercises we did in school were far more abusive, intrusive, and damading than ANYTHING I have seen in the past two years.

i dont mean to offend u but this is
common defense of large group awareness

this is like saying that landmark is not
*as* abusive as this or that so its ok.

it isnt.

abuse is wrong. abuse from school if that
where u got yours is wrong.

families abusing their children or wives
or spouses is wrong. i really dont think
getting into the , " this is less abusive
that makes much sense.

on the other hand if u feel it does lets discuss it

For Example, I had a professor that would SCREAM at me in front of an entire class for the sole purpose of making me feel humiliated (sp) for in order for me to breaktrhough my barriers. I am just saying that the exercises in LE are common exercises in any theare, dance or art class.

actually u might be right. and that is
a problem. if landmarks abuse is basically
the same kind of abuse u get in other
situations then we have many problems,
not less of one because landmark should
not be abusing people just because everybody
else does.

we need to discuss this though because u
might be right.

I don't want to pick a fight but I do request that you look at that what is abusive to you might not seem at all abusive to anyother person.

when i attended the landmark forum jinnendrah my forum leader did this
to a women in our group.

he got her to join him and she stood up.
this woman was in her mid twenties, she
had cancer. he started asking her all kinds
of questions and every time she gave an
answer that was not a correct landmark think
answer he would cut off her way of thinking.

he had the gall to even tell her that having
cancer was her own fault. he told her that
if she had joined landmark earlier in her
life that she wouldnt have had cancer in the
first place.

he made her cry during his indoctrination
proceedings and then he made her feel
good and she laughed.

this was psycological abuse. plain and simple.
it was abuse. of course we can call it something
else so that landmark can continue this or
we can it is wrong.

i do realize if u are a landmark grad u probably
changed your way of thinking to include the
idea of no right or wrong.

unforunately some people have some form
of this thinking in them before they ever
get to landmark. landmark for these people
is a contuation of their way of thinking.
that being there is no right or wrong.

and on the other hand this idea of no right
or wrong and cutting off people in their
ability to think could be considered from
landmarks perspective good for their clients.

if we step back for a moment we can see
this is mind manipulation.

when in landmark if u have an idea that
doesnt jive with landmark, its a racket.

if u have been raped and u are having
a problem with it , then its just your way
of thinking that needs to be changed.

i would like to have further conversation with
u. hopefully u wont go away.

I take responsibility that LE isn't for everyone and accept people's choice not to participate. I also acknowledge that LE has not always been respectful of that choice.

lets call a spade a spade. u acknowlegge that
landmark has not always been respectful of

landmarks teachings as they are and as
est was before them is abuse. abuse is used
suppedly to help people.

u cannot help people by abusing them, but
i will agree that there are more and more
people at least in the united states that believe
abuse makes u strong. abuse turns boys
into men.
i have heard this before from many people.
this does not make it right. and i do understand
that once people have become involved with
landmark they have no right. they have no
wrong. they say it just is.

lets talk about abuse
Posted by: patrick-darcy ()
Date: May 08, 2003 05:03AM

Dont' be sad for me. You misread what I said I am not being humilated and if you felt that I am sorry.

I guess I was lucky because I knew full well about the interactions therefore nothing shocked me as well as who was leading my forum.

In fact I feel sad for you because you are so angry and seem to dwell in it. I say this not knowing much about you but that is how your post come across.

I joined this site to suggest that not everybody saw things as you did. I understand that was futile.

this is classic landmark .

u got what u wanted from your forum and
i got what i wanted from my forum.

what everybody got was hypnotized. what
at least 97 percent of the people that attended
landmark got was to feel good about themselves.

and this is classic abuse.

lets take spousal abuse.

lets say the man abuses his wife. his wife
does not like the abuse but after being abused
he is nice and gentle to her and she feels
good and then is willing to be abused some more and when it is over he is nice to her
and then the pattern begins over and over.

landmark uses group hypnosis. because people
before they do their forum write down the
three things in life they want the most they
under hypnosis are working on themselves.
its real easy to see if look at it from a different
perspective. landmark grads lose some of
their perspective. they are made to feel good.
some people i will admit felt quite bad about
themselves before going there. of course they
dont come to newsgroups and forum and
talk about it they talk about how they
have these new relationships. they talk about
how they love their jobs.

are u aware that microsoft reimburses their
employees for attending landmark.

if microsoft is gonna pay for the work done
to these people im sure their forums are tilted
a little to microsoft. it makes perfect sense.

i believe it was john that mentioned to me
on this forum a while back how i should
have just let myself go and become terrified
during their empowerment process . i
dont think allowing myself to be told i was
terrified and then to wail and scream and
cry was something i wanted to do.

i do understand that after being terrified
that they tell the people that they are the
ones doing the terror stuff to others and
then then people begin to have hysterical

this little piece of landmark is hardly ever
discussed in the open. they would much
prefer for it to remain a secret.

lets talk about abuse
Posted by: elizabeth ()
Date: May 08, 2003 05:04AM

Express, I understand your point about saying that for you what happened inside your Landmark sessions was not abuse.

When you went to your first weekend, you were looking for something or else you would not have been there. Be it to improve your work situation, your relationships or simply life in general - you were looking for answers. You came out with answers you had never dreamed possible. How could this possibly be abuse?

Landmark Education offers a promise of a major transformation in your life and obviously you achieved that because you say you have a great life, a great job and great relationships. So if that is the case, why do you need to continue to be involved with Landmark? Did they not teach you the skills and techniques necessary to transform your life?

The abuse is not necessarily just the verbal and mental techniques the leaders throw at you, it is also about the way they have set up their "courses". They show you great techniques and new insights on life but they promise you even more if you take the next "course". They create a dependence on their "courses". That is abuse. Abuse of the vulnerability of people.

It has been stated that about 40% of the Landmark techniques are worthwhile and thought-provoking techniques which can be beneficial to many people. It is not the techniques that are necessarily considered abuse but rather the fact that without Landmark you cannot sustain your "high" on life.

That is abuse.

who has lost her husband to Landmark and whose eight-year old daughter doesn't deserve this.

My point is that to me it is not abusive--and you can call me barinwashed but you know what I have a life I love. I love my job. How many of you can say you delight in going to work everyday? I have a relationship with my family that I never dreamed possible. In short, I am thriving because I am being called to be. I was just asking you to consider for some people these exercises and conversations are not abusive. For you they may be but please look at the fact that

lets talk about abuse
Posted by: express ()
Date: May 08, 2003 06:15AM

Please note that I have only had to pay for one course. That is why I keep in the conversation because I am not spending my money.

lets talk about abuse
Posted by: Hope ()
Date: May 08, 2003 07:33AM


Dont' be sad for me. You misread what I said I am not being humilated and if you felt that I am sorry.

Express, what I wrote was "accepting humiliation as okay is the saddest thing I've heard. I did not say I feel sad for you.


I guess I was lucky because I knew full well about the interactions therefore nothing shocked me as well as who was leading my forum.

Lucky is right, because the majority of attendees are not given any information at all about the courses or the leaders.


In fact I feel sad for you because you are so angry and seem to dwell in it. I say this not knowing much about you but that is how your post come across.

There is no need to feel sad for me. I'm not angry nor am I dwelling in "it." This forum is one of the few places were LE grads can share their experiences. I like to share mine when I can.

The point of this thread was to discuss abuse, yet when those who attended started discussing abuse more, your response changed to accusing me of being angry. That is an age-old diversion technique. But I am glad you posted it because many people check in here to just read the discussions, without posting.

I'm interested to hear if you know about the sources of material from which Landmark Forum was developed?
You are correct in that you know little about me.

lets talk about abuse
Posted by: patrick-darcy ()
Date: May 08, 2003 09:10AM

u do not love your job. u do not love your
family. u cant possibly love. what u are
feeling whether u understand it or not
is that u have been programmed . your
mind is telling u that u love your job, and
your family but u dont.

u cant love them. u have no truth. and if
u have no truth u cannot love.

what u are feeling is landmarks gift to u.
u are feeling love , a love that is not real.
that is why they call it mind control.

u no longer are in control of your feelings.
that is the whole point of landmark.

remember the lgats change the meanings
of the words.

u have no truth, u have no love and still
u speak of it. quite amazing isnt it.

do u get it now ?

lets talk about abuse
Posted by: express ()
Date: May 08, 2003 10:51PM

I get what you are saying but I do not agree with it. If I don't love my life then I don't know if I could stand a life that I REALLY do love.

lets talk about abuse
Posted by: patrick-darcy ()
Date: May 09, 2003 03:47AM


u probably could not.

would it be possible for u to talk
about what u wanted from your forum.

can u post the 3 things in life u wanted
the most ?

lets talk about abuse
Posted by: express ()
Date: May 09, 2003 05:34AM

[i:e9e0967f14]But I am glad you posted it because many people check in here to just read the discussions, without posting. [/i:e9e0967f14]



lets talk about abuse
Posted by: express ()
Date: May 13, 2003 11:51PM


Ross upped his deprogramming fee, he told Tonkin, because of the risk of legal prosecution. He also added "muscle" to the operation in the form of a karate black belt expert. When Jason returned to his grandmother’s home one evening, they were waiting in the house. They jumped him, wrestled him to the ground, and dragged him into a waiting van, its windows covered by towels taped over to hide what went on inside.

Jason kicked violently to get free, but they restrained him effectively: one man held his torso, another his legs, another his head and shoulders. They handcuffed his wrists, tied his ankles with rope, and gagged him from ear to ear with duct tape. He was finally thrown onto his stomach, his hands crushed beneath him while one of the deprogrammers, weighing 300 pounds, sat on his back. Meanwhile, Jason’s back, legs, and upper body were bruised and sore from being dragged across floors, stairs, and a cement patio into the van.

The deprogrammers drove some hours to an ocean-side cottage. There Jason’s ankle restraints were loosened just enough to permit to walk into the isolated house, with one of his captors holding a nylon strap as a "leash" and another with a tight grip on his handcuffs. By now both his hands were numb from the cuffs’ pressure.

First he was led upstairs, taken into a bathroom, and dumped into a shower stall. He could hear them preparing another room where he was eventually taken.

He could see they had made a prison. Thick nylon straps had been riveted in place over windows in a mesh-like pattern to prevent escape. The room had two doors, but each was guarded. As added insurance against escape. they took Jason’s shoes and installed motion detectors in the room.

Initially Jason demanded that he be permitted to leave and asked Ross if he was going to try to change his mind against his religion, Ross responded, "Yeah, that’s what I’m paid to do." Scott threatened with criminal prosecution but was laughed at. Ross bluntly told him, "You’re not going anywhere and if you give me any problems I’m going to handcuff you to the bed frame, and it’s going to be more uncomfortable than the ride over here."

Then began five days that were non-stop personal degradation and belittling of his beliefs, his girlfriend, and his pastor. Ironically, Ross, who was Jewish, would wax long into the night on the errors of conservative Protestantism and Christianity. When Jason was finally permitted to sleep a guard slept in front of each of the room’s two doors to prevent escape. When Jason went to the bathroom at least two of the deprogrammers accompanied him. Worse, given the poor, greasy food he was fed, he developed nausea and diarrhea on top of multiple bruises and scratches, not to mention psychological trauma, from his violent abduction.

And so it went for almost a week. Ross would argue with Jason daily about religious matters, refuse to allow him to respond, and tap or hit him in the head to emphasize points, Jason meanwhile restrained or closely guarded to discourage resistance. He was told in the coldest words that he would not be set free until the deprogramming was concluded, which in practical terms meant he had to renounce the Pentecostal faith and agree to leave the Life Tabernacle Church.

Jason held up resistance despite the anxiety, sense of helpless isolation, and physical illness and injuries. However, he overheard several deprogrammers talking about how they planned to send him to a so-called "rehabilitation" facility in a remote area of rural Ohio, called Wellspring, after he was deprogrammed. Wellspring often treated coercively deprogrammed religious followers and was operated by CAN board member psychologist Paul Martin. (Among the items eventually seized by police after Jason’s escape were plane tickets to Wellspring.) Jason decided to play along and hoped to fool the deprogrammers.

Jason began to feign acquiescence in the hope that his captors would become careless and give him an opportunity to escape. By January 22, Jason thus convinced his captors that he was ready to renounce his faith, appearing to break down in tears and remorse. He remained cooperative with Ross and the other deprogrammers, still hoping to escape. He spent the last day forced to watch videos on New Age religions and "channeling," subjects which have nothing to do with Pentecostalism.

Jason’s ploy succeeded. Pleased at the deprogramming’s evident success, Ross suggested that they all go out to a celebration dinner at a restaurant in a nearby town. At his earliest opportunity once in the establishment, Jason excused himself to go to the men’s room. And as a prime example of deprogrammer arrogance and credulity, Ross let him go–alone. Jason literally ran out the front door of the restaurant and called the police from a telephone across the street.

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