Quote
skeptic
All the talk about CHOICE in an lgat is such a smokescreen (it sounds good and you get to think you're retaining your automony all the while you're being programmed to think/"choose" in the exact same way as every other person in the room. It is my opinion, and I was entangled in an lgat for six years, that an indoctrinated person really can't make a true choice (they can't even think straight).

You're right on the money, Skeptic! It's either we choose their choices or remain in the dark. It sickens me to think that numbskulls can do a weekend course and then try and argue their 'enlightenment' with us 'gentiles' as if we've had our heads in the sand. I mean, it's worse than that because when the 'discussion' moves away from their rote-learning they just get angry or quiet or quickly change the subject ... which always indicates to me that the typical Lekkie can't think for themselves. I'm convinced of that! So much for a lifetime spent reading and writing and experiencing the full gamut of life ... gee, I didn't know I've been wasting my time trying to figure things out for myself.

On the brightside, atleast a dumbstruck Lekkie is better than...

Quote
Jack Oskar Larm
Have you really dealt with your arrogance? Your singlemindedness? Your ego? Have you really learnt to listen? Do you really care about other people?

Yes, on all counts. Yet, I kept repeating the same patterned behavior from the past.

Quote
Jack Oskar Larm
There is nothing wrong with sharing your troubles/concerns/pain/hurt. I really think YOU know better than this ...

When did I ever say there was anything wrong? That's the whole point of the Forum - everyone shares their story, and then gets to realize who made the story up, regardless of circumstances.

Quote
Jack Oskar Larm
it just seems you've washed up against the grate in the drain and you think you've found salvation. Time will reveal that it's just a damn grate and not the holy grail!

Salvation? The only final salvation I know of is offing yourself. Short of that, nothing permanently solves all problems. This means you have to deal with them. If the Forum provides one with tools to deal with all sorts of human problems all of us encounter, in a more powerful way than we thought was possible, then why not take that and run with it?

No one says you have to believe anything in the Forum. It's quite a-la carte. Take what you can, leave the rest.

Dealing with one's own past is not as easy or as obvious as it appeared to me, until I found the Forum. Since the leaders have basically heard every story on earth from thousands of people, your ego is useless in its venue. The rug is being pulled out from under you each time you get up and argue with the leader. Then you start to wonder why do you argue? Did you argue like that when you were 4 or 5? Or did something happen, and you made a decision to be a certain way, which you carried forward into the future, internalized in your behavior? 10 out of 10, it's the latter, unless you are a) not human, b) never was a kid, c) never had a bad experience in your life....

Showing you what you are made of in a private venue like the Forum, where confidentiality and privacy is respected, is a great way to really become adept at handling your own personal issues without having to pay 200/hour for 'professional' help. Getting a psychologist to help you is also another way of dealing with the past, albeit more expensive than the Forum. The Forum is for normal people who THINK they have a problem, without realizing where its source lies.

Anyway, thanks for moving the discussion forward, instead of simply bashing (regardless of whether you have or not attended the Forum).

Hey skeptic - is being here not a different choice than staying in the LGAT? So who programmed you to come to culteducation.com and share? Is it the same or a different person who programmed you to go to the LGAT (no pun intended)?

I'm not being sarcastic - just curious as to why you think you had your free will taken away from you, if you don't mind telling us...

Thanks.

Quote
skeptic
All the talk about CHOICE in an lgat is such a smokescreen (it sounds good and you get to think you're retaining your automony all the while you're being programmed to think/"choose" in the exact same way as every other person in the room. It is my opinion, and I was entangled in an lgat for six years, that an indoctrinated person really can't make a true choice (they can't even think straight).

Quote
pragmatist
Hey skeptic - is being here not a different choice than staying in the LGAT? So who programmed you to come to culteducation.com and share? Is it the same or a different person who programmed you to go to the LGAT (no pun intended)?

I'm not being sarcastic - just curious as to why you think you had your free will taken away from you, if you don't mind telling us...

Thanks.

Pragmatist,

Apparently you don't know the nature of the beast. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the material before you go spouting off any more comments that reveal your ignorance. Start here:

[www.culteducation.com]


Ellen

elena:

"pragmatist" is only here to defend his subjective "experience," because it makes him feel good and he doesn't really care about anything else.

It isn't pragmatic for him to explore facts or dig deeper regarding Landmark, because that would "pull the rug out from under him."

After all, he has paid Landmark to "get it" and learning what's actually behind the curtain destroys the illusion of Oz.

Illusions make pragmatist feel good and he is no Toto.

As you already know reality is often quite disturbing for LGAT junkies.

Withdrawal can also be rough, it forces people like pragmatist to face their problems realisitically in a way that doesn't include magical thinking.

Pragmatist seems hooked on Landmark's psuedo-"technology," which gives him the kind of high that he wants.

Eventually he may be forced to face the reality that Erhard's philosophy is fundamentally flawed, but for now pragmatist is a happy little Landmark munchkin dancing down the yellow brik road.

He wants to believe in Emerald City and has paid for parking there.

Quote
rrmoderator


He wants to believe in Emerald City and has paid for parking there.

LOL...

I'm all for sewing seeds. Even the most thoroughly programmed retain a couple of functioning synapses of imagination. At some low point, when the doubts start knocking on the door, he may remember where the keys are. Even if he never does, someone else reading who has followed the cult logic this far may stop and think before going any farther.

Let's see: to make it easier for any gullible soul who's following the trail of crumbs, let's list the cult "seduction" progression, how 'bout? I'll see how many I can come up with:


You don't believe everything you read in the paper, do you?

Don't you want a breakthrough?

The critics are hateful, bitter, negative people who blame others for their problems.

It's life-changing.

You have to experience it yourself.

It's not for everybody.

Your beliefs are what are holding you back.

Just take the good stuff and leave what isn't useful to you.

The person who recommended the program must be a very good friend to want to share something this special with you.

What's the rest of your life worth?

They are just tools -- tools for living. You can use them or not.

Our programs are for the mentally well.

Our programs are for the already successful who just want to add that edge.

"Thinking" is what got you stuck.

You create your own reality.

Take what you get.

To be happy, choose what you got.

Take your checkbook.



There are lots more. Anybody?



Ellen

Quote
pragmatist
Dealing with one's own past is not as easy or as obvious as it appeared to me, until I found the Forum. Since the leaders have basically heard every story on earth from thousands of people, your ego is useless in its venue. The rug is being pulled out from under you each time you get up and argue with the leader. Then you start to wonder why do you argue?

Denigrating "ego" seems to be a common theme in these destructive groups. What does the term "ego" mean to you, pragmatist?

It sounds like the leaders were not very respectful of your point of view. Why were you arguing? Were they wrong about something? Were they wrong about you?

Quote
question lady
Denigrating "ego" seems to be a common theme in these destructive groups. What does the term "ego" mean to you, pragmatist?

It sounds like the leaders were not very respectful of your point of view. Why were you arguing? Were they wrong about something? Were they wrong about you?

You really want an honest answer? I didn't like anything they had to say...

Yet I stayed through the entire experience anyway. Then for about the next 2 years, I wondered why I resented the Forum leader so much...

Then the "answers" started showing up one day as I was watching Real Time with Bill Maher - Bill complained about everything and anything, and Deepak Chopra was a guest on the show.... midway through his complaints, he (Deepak) cut him off and said, "do you have any idea how difficult it is to stay positive in a world of negativity?" (or something along those lines).

Then it sort of 'hit me'...

Whether this qualifies for a legit answer, I have no idea... But taking a position of being right all the time in the past, even though it paid off for me 99% of the time, that 1% when I thought I was right (but someone else claimed, at the top of their lungs that I was wrong), I got back all my righteousness to me in spades..... and got hurt.

So, I don't know if that answers your question... but re-examining my choices from the past, via means of participating in the Forum, shed a whole new light on every choice I made where I fucked up (or didn't)....

Now I'm just a tad more careful when opening my mouth :D.

pragmatist:

Based upon your comments on this board you don't seem "a tad more careful" about offering unsolicited advice to people you don't know about things that you are not qualified to address.

If anything Landmark may have actually made you worse.

Rick- I forget to include a standard disclaimer perhaps - that one should take everything I say with a grain of salt, but then again, I figured participation on this board doesn't have to be a litigous thing, where I have to warn people that I could be wrong about what I say.

I talk mostly about my personal experience with the Landmark Forum (interspersed with stuff from psychology/philosophy, which I've read and incorporated in my speech/writings here). Some people like it, others don't. I am not asking anyone to take my advice at face value. Anyone who doubts me, can most certainly consult anyone else beyond me, this bulletin board and anyone on it. My degree is in computer science, not psychology/psychiatry/social science or anything alike. A whole lot of people like myself (engineers) participate in events like the Landmark Forum, so it's not like sharing the experience on a bulletin board is or should be taken as gospel or professional advice.

I'm sorry if I came off preachy. That wasn't my intent. I reserve my remarks and interpretations for myself - take them or leave them if you like/don't like them...

Quote
rrmoderator
pragmatist:

Based upon your comments on this board you don't seem "a tad more careful" about offering unsolicited advice to people you don't know about things that you are not qualified to address.

If anything Landmark may have actually made you worse.