I'm pretty sure that "Out Integrity" thing came from scientology. If that's not the exact phrase, it's something similar. And the concept is the same; i.e., not integrity in the conventional sense but integrity to Landmark, Landmark rules, Landmark thinking, and Landmark directives.

And the rest of what you've written is almost identical to scientological practices and L. Ron Hubbard's tactics for taking and keeping control of his followers. They refer to them as "withholds" and "overts."



Ellen

that doesn't suprise me in the least elena, the more I explore landmark from an objective point of view the more I realise they have taken so many parts of other beliefs and twisted them to fit their own needs

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midonov123
I understand that Landmark is all about having a breakthrough in your life. Could you tell us a little bit about the breakthrough that you have experienced at the time and would you say that you have benefited from that breakthrough while you were participating?

I think it is dangerous to ask about a "good side" of LE ... Then you are already in a sort of "enrollment" conversation, your barrier might break and you might be subtly interested in doing the course. If I say, I have a breakthrough from that course, why should I say it is bad ... e.g. ILPs are trained to present their breakthroughs from the FORUM, and one forum leader said to someone saying that he did not have a breakthrough form the course: "That's a racket, you can create one from nothing".


Bye !

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ClausDIa

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midonov123
I understand that Landmark is all about having a breakthrough in your life. Could you tell us a little bit about the breakthrough that you have experienced at the time and would you say that you have benefited from that breakthrough while you were participating?

I think it is dangerous to ask about a "good side" of LE ... Then you are already in a sort of "enrollment" conversation, your barrier might break and you might be subtly interested in doing the course. If I say, I have a breakthrough from that course, why should I say it is bad ... e.g. ILPs are trained to present their breakthroughs from the FORUM, and one forum leader said to someone saying that he did not have a breakthrough form the course: "That's a racket, you can create one from nothing".


Bye !

Clausdia,

A person I know who recently left LE was contacted by LE people and he was immediately asked to talk about his breakthrough. He refused. Your answer tells me clearly that it's part of their indoctrination practice! That they say you can "create one from nothing" also tells me a lot about what this is all about.

It was not my intention to infer that there may be any real benefits or positive sides from LE. I don't believe there are real "good sides" as clearly apparent by all the testimonies from the people on this forum. What I was asking is :

When you were under the influence of LE, what made you think you had a breakthrough - how could LE instill that belief into your brain? and,

Would you say today, now that the spell is broken, that your experience of a breakthrough was a genuine one?

I think this is a better formulation. Personnaly, I believe the real breakthrough comes when the spell is broken. A breakthrough in awareness that there are people out there you must be cautious about.

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nettie
[b:1a68aa24bc]GOOD AND BAD RESULTS[/b:1a68aa24bc]

... You may end up taking medication for psychosis and who will listen to a psychotic?

I often hear about people having psychotic episode after their participation to LE. I understand that a psychosis is about having delusions and loosing contact with reality. This can take numerous forms. Some examples are of religious nature (the person sees angels, think she's dead floating around etc... , the mafia (gangster are persecuting the person, attempt to kill her or members of her family), or the CIA (part of a secret plot, hidden cameras inside your house, ...)

Does anyone knows about the types of delusions the participant at LE are experiencing? Is it directly related to stories the Forum leader tells (like creating your own reality, giving you unlimited powers, grandiosity) or is LE simply a triggering event that will cause the person to become delusional about something unrelated?

The one (and pretty much only) breakthrough I had was with my Step Mother. As a result of the forum I went and talked to her, really interested in hearing her point of view. As a result, I found out that she really wasn't the evil witch I thought she was, and got a real insight into her position, and in a broader sense, how ridiculous and petty my whole family war is. I am absolutely certain that the forum is one of the few things in the world that would precipitate me doing something like that. Not the only thing surely, I possibly could have acheived a similar result from therapy, but it did what it did.

I would call that a breakthrough from Landmark. But was it worth the loss of sleep, the stress, the feelings of total despair that were also a result of doing the courses? Certainly not.

So bottom line, yes the forum gets results IN SOME CASES. People experience benefits to different extents. Similarly it can also be responsible for mental casualties IN SOME CASES. Most people will simply be taken for a ride, lose a bit of sleep and a bit of money. Who knows what the real statistics are? But for the sake of the few people who are mentally unbalanced as a result of doing the courses, who commit suicide or who cause damage to others, these courses either need to be stopped, or restricted. However, I think it is impossible to determine who will cope with the beating and who will not.

I said in an earlier post that this was my final entry for this thread. Now I AM NOT MY WORD and totally WITHOUT INTEGRITY. "bad nettie...bad...bad"

IMPECCABILITY - ONE PART OF MIND CONTROL

Why this obsessivness with details? Because it makes people susceptible to control of their thougths. If you at look how the room is setup during a landmark forum you will see perfect lines of chairs. During each break they are put back in perfect lines - should any disruption have been made to the IMPECCABILITY of the room.

When you sit in uncomfortable chairs and there is no room to fidget around your sense are dulled - you get tired and your defences against the thought reform is lowered.

OTHER ILL EFFECTS

You will find yourself becoming more and more obsessed with details as you go up the ladder in landmark. You will become a perfectionist.

"For the world to be A PLACE THAT WORKS FOR EVERYBODY we all have to abide by the rules people! It's as simple as that! Get in line!".

I find myself being very edgy in normal life when things don't go my way. People simply live a life WITHOUT INTEGRITY.

They are bad - I am good - we need them to take the forum......ooooh....then the world will start to work it's ability of racketfreeness and winning formula lessness blablabla and wasn't there something about holding people accountable blablabla and I think I remember that someone told me that there was nothing to be fixed, you're ok already so I don't have to worry....but I do worry...but worry doesn't mean anything so I guess there is a vicious circle...maybe I'm not complete somewhere.....why can't I think straight....

BLIP! Oh man....where was I? Get your act together! Get COMPLETE! Get coaching!

If you follow the thought patterns above you can see how this can put you in psychosis. The confusion in your mind was put there by the forum leader. They don't care - as long as it works for them. And Landmark Education.

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midonov123

When you were under the influence of LE, what made you think you had a breakthrough - how could LE instill that belief into your brain? and,

Would you say today, now that the spell is broken, that your experience of a breakthrough was a genuine one?

.... thanks for your response. Yes, I agree, this is an interesting question ... difficult to answer. How would you define a breakthrough? Something you haven't done before or a life-altering experience?

Does anyone knows what are the basics of the RELATIONSHIP SEMINARS.

Is it in essence something like "If your partner loves you he will do the LF", "If he trusts you he will do the LF", etc ... or is there something more interesting to it?!

Also, I heard that when you are an Introduction Leader, you must do the LF every two years. Does it mean pay $500 everytime among other things?

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midonov123
Does anyone knows what are the basics of the RELATIONSHIP SEMINARS.

Hi midonov,

I don't know the basics of the Relationship seminar per se, but I have some secondhand knowledge. The basic teaching seems to be "accept your partner as they are", which seems good at the surface, but I think they subtly add things to this that make it not so good. My gf was big on telling me that she "accepted me exactly the way I was," while at other times telling me I should take the forum so that we would have something to share, until I told her to never ask me again.

She was taking the relationship seminar when we first started going out. One of the concepts that she raised was "Potentially Endearing Qualities." These are things you don't accept in your partner (such as annoying behaviors, incommunicativity, whatever) but should learn to. When this first came up, I suggested she just tell me if I do something that irriates her, and I can decide to work on it or not, and she can decide to accept it or not, but to be in a dialog together to work it out. But what I saw was a tendency to stuff the annoyance, because "I'm not irriated, this is a 'Potentially Endearing Qualitiy' of my mate, and I must accept it -- something would be wrong with me if I can't love this too . . . ." This of course would eventually lead to a "breakdown" (Landmark term). Like most LGAT philosphy, the "Potentially Endearing Qualities" concept can be traced back to the "I'm OK, you're OK" concept.

Another concept they teach is that successful realtionships are made up of a series of well-handled "breakdowns." Analysis of the "breakdown" is in typical LGAT fashion (read racket, winning formula, etc.).

Of course communcation is stressed. But evidently not TRUE communication where people sometimes confront each other or bring up difficult issues and work things out. What I see as a reucurring them is that those who pursue "mystery" and "knowledge" and join things that LGATs are actually intolerant of mystery and knowledge. The same seems to be true of communication. They take courses such as these to "improve communication" but seem intolerant of REAL communication that is sometimes messy and real and human. Maybe they want to "create their own reality" because they cannot deal with REAL REALITY. Just a thought . . . .

In the end, it seems to be a seminar that teaches more scripts (behavioral and verbal) to follow, rather than real skills.

Anyway, that's my "experience." :wink:

-lightwolf