Re: Landmark Confusion - seeking support
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: October 05, 2016 09:28AM
Just to give credit where credit is due, the bit about "buyers remorse" is from an earlier contributor, The Anticult.
TAC spent some years on the message board and provided expertise on covert (unethical) trance induction, briefed us on methods of sales pressure.
One of the most important things TAC taught us was to look at the waiver forms
typically used by LGATs.
[forum.culteducation.com]
You basically sign away your right to sue or mediate for damages if you are harmed as a result of being processed through an LGAT.
This is a real fucker because LGATs do not give you full disclosure beforehand on what will be done to you. You lack the information needed for informed consent, yet they require you to sign the waiver forms.
Which is hypocritical in that the LGATs claim to teach you to take responsibility for your life.
In using those waiver forms, the LGATs refuse to take responsibility for their use
of the 'technology'.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2016 09:39AM by corboy.
TAC spent some years on the message board and provided expertise on covert (unethical) trance induction, briefed us on methods of sales pressure.
One of the most important things TAC taught us was to look at the waiver forms
typically used by LGATs.
[forum.culteducation.com]
You basically sign away your right to sue or mediate for damages if you are harmed as a result of being processed through an LGAT.
This is a real fucker because LGATs do not give you full disclosure beforehand on what will be done to you. You lack the information needed for informed consent, yet they require you to sign the waiver forms.
Which is hypocritical in that the LGATs claim to teach you to take responsibility for your life.
In using those waiver forms, the LGATs refuse to take responsibility for their use
of the 'technology'.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2016 09:39AM by corboy.
Re: Landmark Confusion - seeking support
Posted by:
GloriaG
()
Date: October 05, 2016 03:55PM
kdag Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bouncing off of what corboy just posted - Landmark
> makes many thousands off of buyer's remorse. They
> have a $100 non-refundable portion of the deposit.
>
>
> So your friend, who is in the Introduction
> Leader's Program, (ILP), calls you up, crying,
> because she doesn't have enough people for her
> introduction that afternoon. The crying is the
> first hook. I could swear that they train them to
> do that. You agree to go, as a favor. She promises
> that you don't have to sign up - "Just be there."
>
> After the introduction leader finishes her spiel,
> they ask if you got any value out of it, and, of
> course, (to be polite), you say that you did.
> There's another hook.
>
> You deliberately did not bring any money, credit
> cards, or checkbook, so your friend offers to loan
> you the down payment, or even to pay it outright
> for you, (this is EXTREMELY common). There's
> another hook. After that, you are indebted to your
> "friend," so you feel that you HAVE to go.
>
> Later, in the Assisting Program, I processed many
> refunds to people who had signed up and then
> regained their sanity, and from each refund I was
> instructed to hold back $100, because that was the
> non-refundable part. I was only there for about 3
> hours per week, and my guess would be that I
> probably processed about ten of these each time.
Hi Kdag,
Is this a recent development? I did get a full refund on the SELP section but by then, they had had my money on the Forum and Advanced course. But I remember even on those weekend sessions, they said we could have had a full refund on either of them if we wanted. I think we had 1 day to decide that though. ie: by the end of day1. I did this in 2010, so maybe this is new?
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bouncing off of what corboy just posted - Landmark
> makes many thousands off of buyer's remorse. They
> have a $100 non-refundable portion of the deposit.
>
>
> So your friend, who is in the Introduction
> Leader's Program, (ILP), calls you up, crying,
> because she doesn't have enough people for her
> introduction that afternoon. The crying is the
> first hook. I could swear that they train them to
> do that. You agree to go, as a favor. She promises
> that you don't have to sign up - "Just be there."
>
> After the introduction leader finishes her spiel,
> they ask if you got any value out of it, and, of
> course, (to be polite), you say that you did.
> There's another hook.
>
> You deliberately did not bring any money, credit
> cards, or checkbook, so your friend offers to loan
> you the down payment, or even to pay it outright
> for you, (this is EXTREMELY common). There's
> another hook. After that, you are indebted to your
> "friend," so you feel that you HAVE to go.
>
> Later, in the Assisting Program, I processed many
> refunds to people who had signed up and then
> regained their sanity, and from each refund I was
> instructed to hold back $100, because that was the
> non-refundable part. I was only there for about 3
> hours per week, and my guess would be that I
> probably processed about ten of these each time.
Hi Kdag,
Is this a recent development? I did get a full refund on the SELP section but by then, they had had my money on the Forum and Advanced course. But I remember even on those weekend sessions, they said we could have had a full refund on either of them if we wanted. I think we had 1 day to decide that though. ie: by the end of day1. I did this in 2010, so maybe this is new?
Re: Landmark Confusion - seeking support
Posted by:
anonday
()
Date: October 05, 2016 05:08PM
Yeah, I recall Landmark offering full refunds for all courses I was in during 2012. I'm also aware of some workers in 2015 who acknowledged that you can get a full refund if you argue long enough. Never heard about a partial refund.
Re: Landmark Confusion - seeking support
Posted by:
kdag
()
Date: October 05, 2016 07:04PM
@ Gloria, this was in 2008. I think this was mostly the forum, and some for the advanced course. They do make an exception if you cancel for a medical reason.
@ corboy and The Anticult ~ thank you for the additional info. I remember the waiver form, and also how my so-called friend told me to ignore it.
As it was pointed out, you cannot give informed consent, because they don't tell you what they are going to do. Also, I believe that people sign with the intent that what they are consenting to will be within the scope of the Forum itself, and on grounds.
They say right in the waiver that they are NOT physicians or mental health professionals, or at least they did, and so in signing, people assume that they would not attempt to use tactics that a professional would not touch without specific signed informed consent, if ever.
They also use acronyms, which they copyright, to refer to some of their most abusive practices. This leaves people feeling as if they can't discuss certain things without getting into a legal bind. I would love to lay it all out before a judge and jury, and let them decide if the signature is even binding under these circumstances. I suspect that the use of copyright laws in an attempt to avoid prosecution was not the intent of the lawmakers.
@ corboy and The Anticult ~ thank you for the additional info. I remember the waiver form, and also how my so-called friend told me to ignore it.
As it was pointed out, you cannot give informed consent, because they don't tell you what they are going to do. Also, I believe that people sign with the intent that what they are consenting to will be within the scope of the Forum itself, and on grounds.
They say right in the waiver that they are NOT physicians or mental health professionals, or at least they did, and so in signing, people assume that they would not attempt to use tactics that a professional would not touch without specific signed informed consent, if ever.
They also use acronyms, which they copyright, to refer to some of their most abusive practices. This leaves people feeling as if they can't discuss certain things without getting into a legal bind. I would love to lay it all out before a judge and jury, and let them decide if the signature is even binding under these circumstances. I suspect that the use of copyright laws in an attempt to avoid prosecution was not the intent of the lawmakers.
Extent 2 which LEC loyalists give misleading info on this forum
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: October 06, 2016 01:16AM
Friends, just so you can take the measure of LEC, look at the people it produces.
Here is discussion thread in which someone asked for help.
[forum.culteducation.com]
Oh, and just in case anyone thinks Werner did not know what he was doing,
here is a former est volunteer's description of Werner's home library
and his other foibles. She worked at his SF mansion in the 1970s.
An eye-popping read.
[forum.culteducation.com]
Note: Page one of this thread gives the data for Werner Erhard's family.
Detailed, labor intensive research.
[forum.culteducation.com]
Essential reading for anyone interested in studying the Landmark Education business.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2016 01:36AM by corboy.
Here is discussion thread in which someone asked for help.
[forum.culteducation.com]
Oh, and just in case anyone thinks Werner did not know what he was doing,
here is a former est volunteer's description of Werner's home library
and his other foibles. She worked at his SF mansion in the 1970s.
An eye-popping read.
[forum.culteducation.com]
Note: Page one of this thread gives the data for Werner Erhard's family.
Detailed, labor intensive research.
[forum.culteducation.com]
Essential reading for anyone interested in studying the Landmark Education business.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2016 01:36AM by corboy.
Stay in total control of your transportation so you can flee
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: October 06, 2016 01:54AM
Stay in control of your transportation so you can leave.
That means: never surrender your car keys, telephone or id or laptop.
(How can you be sure these will be kept secure, not hacked into, eh?)
Park your car in an area where you know you will not be boxed in by other
participants' cars.
Do not car pool with anyone. If you want to leave and the person/s you carpooled
with do not want to leave, you'll not want to abandon them and bang, you're
trapped.
Think this advice is from a paranoid mind?
Read this:
Another person's description of Mankind Project. They're screamed
at, given the bums rush, this is at night. Just enough to make people
disoriented and compliant. Once you are spooked to give up your belongings
including jewelry, electronics and probably your wallet, it will be
very, very difficult to leave.
That means: never surrender your car keys, telephone or id or laptop.
(How can you be sure these will be kept secure, not hacked into, eh?)
Park your car in an area where you know you will not be boxed in by other
participants' cars.
Do not car pool with anyone. If you want to leave and the person/s you carpooled
with do not want to leave, you'll not want to abandon them and bang, you're
trapped.
Think this advice is from a paranoid mind?
Read this:
Quote
[forum.culteducation.com]
After the
ceremony we given the choice, we could return to our cabins to
contemplate or we could stay at the lodge to dance the night away with
the other men. Naturally my buddy and myself opted VERY QUICKLY for
the return to the cabin option. As did most of the other initiates.
Once returning to the cabin, my buddy and I were PISSED. It was at
that time that we decided that at first light we were leaving.
The weekend was supposed to last until around 6 or 7 pm on Sunday, but
my buddy and I were packed and ready to go at first light- we went to
the instructors cabin and walked in- they told us to get out! We told
then we wanted our car keys etc, because we were leaving. Naturally,
they then got PISSED! We expected them to make a huge scene in front
of the other initiates but after about 20 minutes of a few of them
pressuring us to stay, "But we're not finished!" "We still have the
renaming exercise!," "But we still have to do the sweat lodge!" (I
read the post about them telling guys to touch each other's dicks
during the sweat, and while I can't speak to that, I wouldn't be
surprised) "Yeah, that's great guys, but as we said, we're outta here,
gimme my car keys!"
Finally they relented. Luckily, my buddy and I had carpooled together
so we weren't in that trap. And by the way, we felt that the carpool
request by MKP was exactly that, a trap so people couldn't leave
without a huge hassle...
Another person's description of Mankind Project. They're screamed
at, given the bums rush, this is at night. Just enough to make people
disoriented and compliant. Once you are spooked to give up your belongings
including jewelry, electronics and probably your wallet, it will be
very, very difficult to leave.
Quote
A piece of paper was brought out from a folder and slid across the
table, next to a candle. "This is an agreement for the weekend. You
must read and understand this, then sign it. Hurry up, men are
waiting." I was handed a blue pen. I hate writing in blue ink. I
started to read the text in the dim light of the candle. Actually, I
was speed-reading it.
"You agree to hold New Warriors as harmless for any physical injuries
you endure this weekend. You agree to not disclose to anyone the
nature or exact activities of this weekend. You may share that you
were on this experience, but you may not describe in any detail any
portion of this weekend. You agree to hold New Warriors as harmless
for any damage or loss. You agree to hold New Warriors as harmless for
any difficulty you may have with this weekend. You understand that
this weekend will be physically and emotionally challenging and you
may opt to quit at any time. You understand that no money will be
refunded to you after this point." It went on.
"Hurry up 38, Men are waiting!" the men behind the table started
shouting. I signed and returned the paper to them.
The man who had the marker also brought out a quart size baggie. In a
very firm voice he said, "In this bag you will put any jewelry, drugs,
electronic items or weapons. It will be kept for you and returned at
the end of the weekend. Do it now. Hurry, men are waiting!"
I took off my watch and a gold necklace that my girlfriend had given
me. I don't think I was wearing any other jewelry. I had a hard time
taking off the necklace as my hands were shaking. Part adreline and
part panic. I had cigarettes and a lighter (I smoked back then) that I
also surrendered and then sealed up the bag and handed it back to
them. The man with the markers threw it back to me. "I didn't tell you
to give it back to me! Go see the next man. Hurry, men are waiting!"
Two men came up to me, one on each side and took me by my arms and
pushed me along.
Quote
hey were working us in shifts. This could go on all night at this
rate. I felt I was right in my conclusion that it was time to get out
of here.
I was shown a place near a wall that I could sit on the floor. There
was a cushion. I was then feeling chilled. Perhaps it was the change
in the room temperature from the hall or I was really ill, or I had
managed to convince myself that I was truly ill with something and my
mind was taking over to do the rest of it. "Rest here a while, we'll
check on you in a bit." Someone told me.
I leaned against the wall, shivering, chilled.
I sat there for a while and truly felt ill. My stomach was churning.
It might have been low blood sugar, left over problems from crypto,
panic, what ever, it was getting bad and then I felt I needed to
vomit. I looked around and could not immediately see a restroom or a
sink, but I saw a door and ran out of it, into the cold night air and
onto the crunching snow. I saw a tree to my right and headed toward
it. For some reason I need to be at the base of something. I puked a
little bile, and then eat some snow to clear the tasted. One of the
staffers had come out. He helped me to my feet and then into the
building, back to the place where I was sitting before. Another
staffer came up with a blanket and offered it to me. I thanked them
for it, violating the "Don't speak unless spoken to." Rule. I was at
this point, hot and shivering and did not care what the rules were to
have been.
Not long after that Bill Kauth came up to me and said, "The other boys
are playing 'capture the flag' for a while. Do you think if you rested
for a bit you could continue? Perhaps in the morning?" I allowed for a
pause and then responded, trying not to make a lot of effort in doing
so, appearing weak. "I don't think I can, sir."
"Ok" he responded.
I wrapped myself tightly in the blanket and was shivering, hard. I had
the chills, badly. I heard M explain that I had been pretty sick from
Crypto just a week before. There was a lot of chatter and then Bill
came back to me. "We should get you home." I had to explain that I was
grouped with guys in a van, so I didn't have a way home. Someone told
me that they would find a way. I fell asleep for a while. It was the
first, and only time I have ever slept while leaning against something
on the ground.
M gently woke me. One of the staff people, a man I knew from ACOA
would take me home. I needed to go get my bag from the pile in the
other room since they did not know which bag was mine and then I could
go any time.
Mr. Kauth then told me there was one more thing to do before I left. I
needed to tell the others who I was to be on the weekend that I was
leaving. They had returned from their time out in the woods, I spotted
his watch and saw that it was close to 4:00AM; this had all been going
on non-stop since 6:00PM the day before.
I kept the blanket around me and was shown the way to the hallway. I
was directed back to the square where the others were sitting, on the
floor, sweaty and looking tired. I felt better, but tried to keep my
level low.
"38 will be leaving us.' Bill said to them. "He has decided he cannot
continue the weekend with you. He will not graduate to be a man. Do
you have anything to say to them, 38?"
My mind quickly passed around several things that I could say. I could
tell them that I knew it was phony; a well-timed and acted play and
that I felt violated by what had gone on thus far.
I considered saying that I was leaving because I saw no point to this,
based on what I had experienced so far. And that we were men, and
didn't need them to tell us so.
In the end, I said something very simple, "I wish you all the best at
finding whatever you seek this week."
I rummaged though the pile of luggage to find my bag and then I left.
Most of the ride to my home was in silence and I think I fell asleep.
I really didn't care if I seemed weak or not. I needed sleep.
When I awoke the next afternoon, I called my girlfriend to explain
that I was home, I had left and I started writing notes about the
weekend. I needed to tell someone what I had experienced. It was so
horrible. I had learned in my time as part of ACOA and other therapy
that writing helped me to work my way through bad experiences, and to
process what had gone one.
I no longer participated in any events with the New Warriors.
------------------------------
Postlude: Viewpoint and opinion.
Looking back at the 10,000 plus words that I have written about my
encounter with the New Warriors, many thoughts come to mind.
I went in search of something, an identity; man. At the time I was
seduced by the idea that I had lacked having some in my life say to
me, "you are now a man." Like someone handing me the certificate of
manhood, or something like that. I thought that this weekend would be
such at the end, I could say, "I'm a man." Instead I found what I had
experienced already at the hands of other men. Brutality,
mistreatment, some might say a sexual assault while I was being
searched. The script for the weekend reads that you are kept off
balance for much of the time. Food is controlled and meager. Breakfast
both days is 'gruel', other food times are nuts and berries. Water
intake is controlled, your actions are watched. What I came away with
was a worse mis-trust of men than I had before. I had trusted this
group to treat me with the respect that I was due, not only as a
human, but as a grown man of 32 years. Even criminals do not deserve
that same treatment.
Re: Landmark Confusion - seeking support
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: October 06, 2016 02:08AM
[forum.culteducation.com]
Quote
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: June 25, 2010 10:21AM
By the way, this process can be very effective when an aquaintance or "friend" is pestering you about attending the LGAT seminar they are involved with. (PSI, Landmark, Byron Katie, MKP...)
The "friend" repeatedly asks you to attend _____ LGAT seminar, as it "changed their life", as they are programmed to do this, and make sales for the company.
The response can be...wow...ok...Get me a hard copy of the current waiver/disclaimer, prices, brochure, and then we'll have a coffee and look it over.
They go...ummm..ok...and contact their LGAT "coach".
After about 9 distractions and misdirections, they might produce the waiver. If not, just refuse to discuss it further. Period.
But once they produce the waiver, and the details, then once you have enough knowledge and training in this area, slowly going through every single point in that waiver with a pen, and marking it and revising it, can not only deprogram you, but can have a powerful effect on them, once they start to perceive the reality of the situation.
Again, everyone is different, but for some at least this method can be very effective, if a person has the proper knowledge and training. And that is only one method, by analyzing the waiver.
It can also work by analyzing the money, like was done here recently for the global sect SGI-USA Soka University, who claim to be a broke charity saving the world, but it was PROVEN recently in this thread they have 900 million in the stock market and real estate. That blew the minds of many SGI followers right there, they had no clue this was going on.
SGI IRS 990 Forms [forum.culteducation.com]
SGI war profits? [forum.culteducation.com]
The facts and evidence of reality can be enough to collapse the illusions and disinformation from the group.
By the way, this is why MKP conceals their IRS 990 Forms, and plays the "non-profit" card.
Yeah, SGI is also "non-profit" which simply means they get to have 900 million in tax-free investments, and billions invested globally, which they control and the leader can do anything they want.
MKP is also "international", and once a group goes international, then they can move money globally inside their own organization to take advantage of loopholes.
That is why they hire the big-guns like Trip Moulton, and what do you know...he accepts personal checks directly!! Maybe he'll also be a Mentor-Coach for hire too.
Trip Moulton
Chief Financial Officer
The ManKind Project
___________MKP Quote________
"You may also donate by sending a check to Trip Moulton, CFO, 27 Blue Bird Hollow, Eddyville, KY 42038.
Blessings to you all,
George H. Daranyi
Chairman, The ManKind Project
“I bring men to life”
PS: If you donate $250 or more please accept our gift of Journeyman, a film about Boys to Men (and their New Warrior mentors),
Re: Jargon used in Landmark - see if your LGAT uses it too
Posted by:
bakkagirl
()
Date: June 09, 2018 06:23PM
This jargon list is very useful.
One thing that struck me in reading it was the "Integrity" focus. This seems to align with 'work' Werner Erhard is doing in one of his many 'groups'.
It looks to me like he is still involved with Landmark, and that he is also directing in some manner the Landmark graduates who have their hands in other pies, other groups.
One thing that struck me in reading it was the "Integrity" focus. This seems to align with 'work' Werner Erhard is doing in one of his many 'groups'.
It looks to me like he is still involved with Landmark, and that he is also directing in some manner the Landmark graduates who have their hands in other pies, other groups.
Re: Landmark Confusion - seeking support
Posted by:
kdag
()
Date: June 10, 2018 04:29AM
bakkagirl,
You might want to go back a page, (on this very thread), and read corboy's post from September 30, 2016 09:22PM.
The part that i would like to draw to your attention to is in the first 11 paragraphs. It has mostly to do with the "freeze response," and also "amygdala hijack."
I recall that you had spoken of a difference in reactions to boundary violations in Asians. This may be a partial explanation of what happened to your colleagues.
I have been described as "stoic," by quite a few people, and suspect that i may have been targeted, for this reason, for certain treatment. They're not happy unless you "break down," in front of them.
I don't know what the differences are, in terms of the internal response of people who are "stoic" vs those who are not, but i suspect that those differences do exist. I do not think that my reaction was what they were expecting. Also, i will have to do a little digging, but i do recall that there is a difference in response to the amygdala hijack, between people who consider violence to be an option, and those who do not.
You might want to go back a page, (on this very thread), and read corboy's post from September 30, 2016 09:22PM.
The part that i would like to draw to your attention to is in the first 11 paragraphs. It has mostly to do with the "freeze response," and also "amygdala hijack."
I recall that you had spoken of a difference in reactions to boundary violations in Asians. This may be a partial explanation of what happened to your colleagues.
I have been described as "stoic," by quite a few people, and suspect that i may have been targeted, for this reason, for certain treatment. They're not happy unless you "break down," in front of them.
I don't know what the differences are, in terms of the internal response of people who are "stoic" vs those who are not, but i suspect that those differences do exist. I do not think that my reaction was what they were expecting. Also, i will have to do a little digging, but i do recall that there is a difference in response to the amygdala hijack, between people who consider violence to be an option, and those who do not.
Re: Landmark Confusion - seeking support
Posted by:
kdag
()
Date: June 10, 2018 05:20AM
if you are interested in reading about the "amygdala hijack," here is a rundown. There is some political theory, that i know nothing about, but this is the best "play by play" explanation i can find. I am especially interested in the fourth paragraph, and still have no idea of what an "amygdala stroke" is. It looks like the link may not work unless you copy and paste.
www.anonymousconservative.com/blog/the-amygdala-hijack-in-action-a-video-example/
"Meatloaf has probably always been a physically tough guy, for whom violence was always an option, so you won’t get him to stroke out. To get the stroke, you need a pathway in the amygdala which blocks using violence as an amygdala relaxant, (something produced most often by prior trauma associated with fighting as a child). If that violence-blocking pathway isn’t there, an amygdala hijack will likely precipitate violence, before you get the stroke."
www.anonymousconservative.com/blog/the-amygdala-hijack-in-action-a-video-example/
"Meatloaf has probably always been a physically tough guy, for whom violence was always an option, so you won’t get him to stroke out. To get the stroke, you need a pathway in the amygdala which blocks using violence as an amygdala relaxant, (something produced most often by prior trauma associated with fighting as a child). If that violence-blocking pathway isn’t there, an amygdala hijack will likely precipitate violence, before you get the stroke."
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