Hi Ilunga/anyone else reading this.

I see your post was over a month ago and so I think you have already done Turing Point? How are your feelings and what are your thoughts?

I had an extremely positive experience of TP, Joyspring and the Mile and completed all 3 workshops 20 years ago.

Although my experience was amazing it obviously concerns me reading this forum.

I will say that although I have sent a few people on the workshops and they also had a very positive experience, I think it's worth mentioning that in my opinion the workshops are not for everyone.

I have had nearly two decades to ponder since completing them and so I am not on "the high" of those that finish and feel I have an objective approach (or well at least I hope I do). I also volunteered for a few months afterwards on TP as an assistant.

I went on the workshops already in a good place and felt I had nothing to lose. I was not looking for anything and was very satisfied with the way things were already going in my life. For me I think that made the difference.

However I will advise that if you have any mental health issues / suffer from depression / anxiety etc.., that you maybe do NOT go on the workshops. That being said, I have also seen many people with chronic depression do extremely well on the workshops and swear by it.

While the vast majority of participants have a positive experience (over the last 40+ years there must be close to 10,000 people) I am typing here because I am saddened that some people appear to be on "suicide watch" and are now suffering severe mental health issues as a result of the workshops.

The only thing I can advise is to contact a psychologist that is specialized in these types of cases as has already been mentioned by other forum users. Clearly professional therapy is needed immediately.

IMO, AsmallBitofGuidance is giving a large amount of invalidation.

WHat about reports that subjects are not told beforehand what will be done to them during the event?

On the previous page Ilunga wrote:

[forum.culteducation.com]

Quote

ittle to almost nothing is mentioned about what we would actually be doing in this workshop for more than 10 hours a day 5 days straight.. I later pressed my friend and her partner for some details, but neither of them would say much. All I heard about was the 'anger game' (whatever that is...), but I got the sense that some kind of agreement or something must have been in place prior to justify such secrecy amongst attendees?

All of this together raised a red flag after I gave it some thought, more so I'm not the kind of person to go head in first for anything unless I've done enough research to satisfy and convince myself beforehand.

This makes it impossible for even a psychologically strong adult to make a fully informed decision whether to participate.

Ilunga also writes:

Quote

Obviously the actual website for the Insight Training Centre yielded little and testimonials do nothing for me, same went for the Google Reviews which I found highly suspicious since the Centre received an overall rating of 5 stars from 49 people (not even the best restaurant in the country has a 5 star rating from Google Reviews or HelloPeter, someone somewhere was unhappy about something (no matter how arbitrary) and at some point!).

HelloPeter only yielded one review and a bad one at that, but the comments discredit it and seeing as it's just one review it's nowhere near enough to give the Centre an 'overall' bad rating, if that makes sense?

Seems someone has arrived here to discredit what several persons have written, in detail, about Insight Centre of Light.

Insinuating that those who felt harmed by participation in your favorite workshop had prior emotional problems and need professional psychotherapist is a commonplace method of invalidating them, while denying your organization
has responsibility, has agency, for the power it wields.

Reportedly, the Insight Centre does things 10 hours day for five days.

This is severely disorientating, psychologically and emotionally.

The 'its not for everyone' is also a commonplace put down.

Both of these are variations of 'blame the victim'.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/06/2019 08:42PM by corboy.

Hi corboy.

Not really sure what to say in response. I typed here because I am extremely saddened that people are suffering as a result of the workshop. I'm not sure how to help lessen the blow and trauma.

It is terrible what has happened to some people post the workshop including suicide.

In my experience those that were of a strong will did well and those that were fragile struggled both during and after the workshop. I am not promoting anything. If 10,000 people have had an extremely positive experience and a few hundred have had a very negative experience, then that is not an opinion. It's just a data point. This online forum I thought was how to help those that were suffering as a result. It's the few hundred that my heart goes out to. "Blame the victim". What are you talking about?

If they should not seek professional help...then what do you suggest they do? If someone is close to suicide, what do you recommend?

AsmallBitofGuidance and corboy,

First off, I would like to extend my thanks for each of your responses; I greatly appreciate the time taken by both of you to go through my initial post and address concerning aspects you had identified.

Despite my immense skepticism and suspicion, I decided to go through with the workshop regardless. I was very much stuck between a rock and a hard place just before the time. I couldn't continue living my life the way I had and a change or push was necessary, but I had no idea what else to do or where else to go. On top of that, I trust the friend who recommended this to me with my life, so I decided I'd give it a try. My rationale was one of well, what would I have to lose and I could always leave if I wanted to.

My experience of the workshop was a very intense one and I would agree with AsmallBitofGuidance in that this isn't for the faint-hearted, the fragile, or the weak (for lack of better words, please don't offense as this isn't directed at any one or meant to be either). To sum it all up (since we were kept constantly busy with activity after activity and talk after talk), those 5 days were probably the most difficult, emotional, overwhelming, tiring and unpredictable days I had been through in a while. Many times I considered leaving or not returning, but I either managed to convince myself to see it through or had others do so when I displayed discouragement.

Look, I'll be as objective as I can be and I can only speak for myself here. I'm the type of person who tries to take value out of every circumstance or situation I find myself in and because of that, I can't say that the workshop was all bad. I wouldn't give it a 5 star rating on Google Reviews, but I don't regret the experience. I most certainly wouldn't do it again and if I had known beforehand what we would go through, I never would have signed myself up for it. But I can't say it was 100% through and through, from start to finish absolutely horrific and life destroying. I did find some things very bizarre and often asked myself "what is the point of this?" or "what are they trying to do here?". I think it's very important to use your own conviction and to not take things personally or as some kind of attack on you, there are many things that were said and done in those 5 days that I completely disregarded since they didn't make sense to me at the time. But on the other hand, there were also many things I actually found to be quite useful and valid. I would advise to use your own discretion to decide, but it could also just be my way of thinking.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the workshop was as traumatising or devastating, at least not to me, and further down along the line I have actually seen and reaped some benefits from it in my own life - which I wouldn't have thought would be possible. It certainly triggered some sort of paradigm shift for me and I've found myself slowly becoming the person I used to be before I lost my way. I wouldn't attribute it all to the workshop though, as there are many other things I had done and tried over the last few months to help me in this regard, but do I think this contributed something. I do agree, however, that this may not be for every person out there and the approach is quite radical and pulls the carpet right out from under your feet.

I, however, have decided that it's not my place to tell others to do it and I'm not interested in volunteering either. I'm not sure what else to say other than that, but I am very glad I did the research beforehand.

Asmallbitofguidence...I'm rather curious as to how you found your way onto this forum given that your involvement was over 20years ago. Why the sudden interest?

You clearly come across as a 'foot soldier'. Quoting stats, ratios and giving us your guidelines on who should or shouldn't attend. The very same guidelines that just happen to be in the forms you sign before undertaking this life changing event. Which is basically an indemnity and giving up your rights to persue any legal action. To top it off your recommendation to seek expert help for those who have come away scarred.

If this operation has been running for over 40+ years then shouldn't they be the experts on who is eligible and fits the criteria for a 'one size fits all ' transformation experience. As you mentioned it's not for everyone.

My daughter, Asmallbitofguidence was not as lucky as you were. At the time of attending these workshops she was 'bright and bubbly displaying all the exuberance a young person does just as they're making their way into adulthood. I have a beautiful memory of her a week before she started the course. As a parent looking at their child and thinking ' WOW it's happening she's almost there ' from that vision to the one llunga describes of having the carpet pulled from under her feet. My daughter is an absolute wreck.

So tell me with all of the money they're making what systems do they have in place for people like my daughter or others that have come out damaged. It's a con...you bought into. What you paid for was for a group of people to humiliate you with your very personal information. Required info. that you would not ordinarily share with total strangers.
Baruch in his very aggressive narcissistic manner and Royee Mr. One upmanship. The element of fear lingering around and having them drive it into your very core. Scared and paranoid. Making you responsible and blaming you for all that is wrong on earth. If you're honest with yourselves you'll admit that you paid a lot of money and received absolutely 'Nothing'. Having paid for and completed all three workshops were you shown your life's purpose? You were emotionally crushed and physically exhausted. Baruch is ex Israeli Special forces so he knows all about putting you through your paces.

Their vision statement ' Providing a world that is conducive for children to be born into ' is this a bad joke? Because clearly the joke is on the participants...are they charitable and compassionite. Who are they helping apart from filling up their own coffers.

I'm angry and I'm no closer to finding relief for my daughter. She's been hospitalized twice now. Misdiagnosed
medicated on schedule 7 drugs. PTSD on this level is not the 'normal' terrain for psychologists in SA. In fact 99% of them are clueless. Everybody knows what the word cult means but do they have an idea of the operations...So you tell me please what are the alternatives? Five years on and she's still going through psychosis locked in her room trying to find her way...My child doesn't even have a smile. How do they get away with destroying a young person's life.

My daughter was a kind sensitive soul call her fragile if you like. No underlying issues. She believed that something 'magical' was going to happen...

Why all the secrecy? We demand transparency in all areas of our lives as building blocks for trust and relationship. How can we be so blinded and promote this kind sickness. Not just for my daughter but for everybody else who has or will be duped by these charlatans.

Asmallbitofguidence and Llunga what ever you did after the workshops you achieved for your self. There was no epiphany no 'life's purpose ' or transformation. At least be real about that to yourself. These people do not have special 'gifts". The 'high' you felt is gone now...lack of sleep blah blah I could go on.

lastsmile,

I can understand your anger and upset given that this is your child which these workshops have unfortunately damaged, and so severely, and I'm quite sure that if you could, you would take the damage caused to her upon yourself and sacrifice whatever it takes to get your daughter back to how you last remember her at her happiest.
I don't doubt that or even question it for a second and to me, how you feel is completely justified and valid.

I'm not going to say that I know how you feel or defend the workshop and it's proponents either.
It's bizarre at best.
The amount of people that such workshops may have helped or benefited are just as real as those who have been hurt and suffered from them.
And that is the unfortunate shadow or flip side of the same coin that very few people get to see or discuss, like I said just look at all the wonderful reviews available in abundance online as opposed to those, like on this forum, of participants who derived absolutely no benefit - perhaps even a marked decrease in the quality of their lives afterwards.

I don't blame you and I agree that the issue you raise is a very pertinent and important one, what about those who are worse off after the workshop/s than they were before?
Where do they go?
Who will understand?
Who can they talk to?

I can recommend a psychologist who deals with such cases if you like that I spoke to before I attended the workshops out of my own skepticism.
It's very difficult to find professionals in this country who can assist in this regard, let alone even know of such kinds of workshops.

A question I have for you, however, is why your daughter attended or even saw the need to attend such workshops if she was perfectly well off and fine before them?
I only ask because I myself would never have even considered Turning Point or JoySpring if it weren't for the situation I found myself in late last year/earlier this year and it wasn't a good one at all..

Another question, you seem to talk about the workshops from a personal viewpoint..almost as if you've attended them yourself or your daughter has told you in detail what takes place in them, which confuses me.
I get the idea that your daughter believes she has benefited somehow from these workshops but this doesn't show in her mental and emotional state currently, nor does it show in how you speak of the workshops for someone on the outside?
Don't take this personally, this is my skeptical nature coming through after reading your last post.

Lastly, for my own purposes and for some clarification, what I paid for and what I got out of the workshop is purely my business and so is what I have to say about it.
I don't expect you to know or understand what that is either from your position but there's no need to bash it from my side you know.
I'm sorry for your daughter, but you don't need to drag me through the same hurt and pain you are suffering just because I feel differently and actually derived some benefit.
Doesn't mean I support or encourage it, but let me speak for myself freely here.

I get that you're angry and could keep going on no doubt, but what's more important for you now is to look for solutions for your daughter and that is probably why this forum is here to some degree.
I can recommend more solutions that have worked for me if you are interested and the current options if hospitals and doctors just aren't working out.
I can understand why they wouldn't.

Let me know how I or we as a collective can help you.

Ilunga-

Here is an article you might wish to read.
[www.culteducation.com]

Scroll down to the paragraph headed "Types of psychological responses." There, it is estimated that up to 10% may become psychiatric casualties to the methods of any LGAT group, and that pre-existing mental illness is not a prerequisite to have this type of reaction.

The FDA does not allow drug companies to put a product on the market with this level of serious adverse reactions, either as over-the-counter products or as prescriptions. When a drug is found to have a high frequency of serious adverse reactions, it is recalled, and victims are often compensated. Sometimes, especially if it is proven that the company was covering up, or was aware of the harm their product could cause, punitive damages are added. In other words, the companies are held accountable.

LGATs know about the damage they cause, but continue to push their product very aggressively. Their only response has been to cover their proverbial @sses with a 10-page, obscurely-worded consent form, in which participants have no idea of what they have actually consented to.

For me, to read that you say you got something out of it is like reading Timothy Leary singing the praises of LSD. The FDA still has it listed as Schedule I. Imagine that!

Llunga I'm wondering to myself why you consulted with a psychologist who is a supposed expert on treating people coming out of LGATs and Cults, before even attending these workshops? So are you in fact saying that the expert was agreeable to you attending these workshops?

You go on to say that the internet only yielded 49 reviews yet you now speak of the many reviews available in abundance,unlike this forum...You do understand that this forum was created not to promote or advance these workshops but to bring awareness.

Your question on my daughter's mental state and why she attended. When she was recruited she was told that it was something 'magical'. That it was going to change her whole perspective on the world. So to answer your question why did she attend because she was young and gullible looking for new experiences. Living life!

Do you have children? This is personal to me...So anytime I chat on this forum it's from 'The 1st person'. I'm not sure if you've done your research on LGATS other than go through the info supplied on Google about Pat Grove and his protegé's.
My daughter doesn't talk and when she does one can barely hear what she's saying. We haven't had a conversation in years. Why are you confused?

' I get the idea that your daughter somehow benefited from the workshops...' are you kidding me??? Psychosis, delusions, auditory hallucinations she has no friends and no life. She has confined herself to her bedroom. Continuous crying...sometimes wailing. With everything I've ever posted how can you possibly have an idea that she's benefited??? Please explain.
Not sure why you're thinking that I'm dragging you through my 'pain and suffering'. I merely made a point on honesty.

'I can recommend more solutions that have worked for me and the current options... ' Please enlighten me! I'm more than willing to hear any of your recommendations and also post the name of the Psychologist to this thread so that anybody reading this in SA will know that there is an expert available just in case they also happen to be a casualty of this transformation process.