To the moderator:

I started with my initial post to dispel some of the rumors of LE and was attacked. I answered back in the language that your so called intellecs. can understand. Yet that was not good enough. I submit that YOU and YOURS must be right and righteous to validate your existence. You sit here and revel in your rightness and when someone comes in to offer insight to your dimly lit world you kill them off with your own rhetoric.

RickRossian's good luck on this site and have a nice time playing Dungeons and Dragons.

Ken

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foodguypdx
How many of you have participated, recently, in the Forum or other seminars. Sonnie_dee I know from your posts that you were in the organization for a while, but when? Are your accounts recent. .

I just can't believe this one!!! He is asking you Sonnie to come back to Landmark as if you didn't "get It" !!! Definitely, that foodguy is completely lost in that cult of his. Poor guy. He just won't stop his rethoric. We try to help him, but he just doesn't get it. I think we are waisting our time on him.

So your purpose in coming here was to be an apologist for LE.

Notice the lack of substance within Ken's (aka foodguypdx) last post.

I guess using your intellect is a sin ito this guy, as are probably historical facts, research and due dilligence.

And so it ends with some name-calling, a wimper, but no meaningful exchange of ideas.

Excuse me for not being grateful for your "insight" and effort to light my darkened world.

brainwashing has gotten so over-used and mis-used that it could mean pretty much anything, for which reason I tend not to use it. in its formal, original meaning, brainwashing has a couple of characteristics (I take these mostly from BATTLE FOR THE MIND by William Sargant.

first, isolation.

second, slowly mounting pressure, persuasion and evidence that:

one, the previous worldview contains omissions or inaccuracies.

two, holding on to the previous worldview causes the subject pain.

three, adopting the modified worldview will cause the subject to feel pleasure.

a physical-mental collapse phase happens. you know, "getting it".

of course this wouldn't happen to you, only to other people.

as for the common persuasive techniques that mass media uses all the time, yes, Landmark uses them too.

they choose articulate, charismatic speakers for a reason, do they not?

Landmark has its own informercial, even, or it did.

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What if people, all people, were to take 1 day and be personally responsible for all of their actions?

meaning what, exactly?

differs from person to person doesn't it, what that would mean.

some of the worst actions ever done in the world happened because someone took responsibility. or some of the best.

Landmark's other favorite words, like integrity, responsibility and other of Landmark's favorite words, they all have different definitions too.

you yourself said that the people who reacted badly to it had problems before and, yes, I would probably agree. so you screen out the people with problems from taking Landmark then? (which Landmark doesn't do and wouldn't consider it economically feasible to do.) would that elminate, say 50% of applicants? so the people who would most need help wouldn't get it?

if you have thought of a way a) Landmark to screen out anyone who would react adversely

b) a way to make ensure that those who never take Landmark get the full benefit (such as you would see it)

and c) make as much profit that way as they do presently while doing a) and b) than contact LEC management. they would love to hear from you. otherwise, you have an irresolvable paradox, even given your premise that only people with only fewer personal kinks can fully benefit from Landmark (i.e. not have some of their worst traists amplified).

treasure the changes that Landmark has given you, please refrain from assuming my motives and frame of mind, for example this assumption that I have only looked at research hostile to Landmark.

want to play a game? I will play the Landmark grad and you play the critic. see if you can stump me.

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How many of you have participated, recently, in the Forum or other seminars. Sonnie_dee I know from your posts that you were in the organization for a while, but when?

I was heavily involved in the organisation for many years and it has [Thankfully] been a few years since I removed myself from its manipulation. I have done participated in many programmes and reviewed many of them and in fact four years ago I am sure I would have been using the same landmark speak and manipulative comments you are now to get people to participate again. I love the never ending comment of "something happened, you made it into something" etc etc... your right something DID happen, I saw the truth about landmark and its unethical practises. I woke up and saw who I had become and the amount of SH*T i had put up with. I saw my self esteem was gone in place was a self righteous intolerable person who even I didn't like! I saw how my life was being affected by living the landmark lies

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So to sit here and spew forth YOUR experiences. However, they are yours with your twist on them, not my twist, yours.

Absolutely correct I do sit here and "spew" forth my experiences because just like you "spewing" forth your experiences and beliefs I have a right to tell mine. And yes they do have my twist of them because they are MY experiences. I am sure someone else in my position would add a different twist... So what

<<Before you judge something I suggest that you do more than one sided research. To say it another way "3 out of 5 dentists recommend...." ok. Which 3 out of which 5 are we talking about? Don't damn me for what I do and I won't damn you, how about that. Stop your hate and anger for a moment. Just consider that what you call wrong someone else callls right and vice versa. If you don't cosider it, you may miss out on something. >>

What if 4 out 6 found Russian roulette fun and entertaining? Would you then step up for chances five and six?

Having a contrary opinion isn't a character flaw. Nor is being passionate about it.

Nor is suffering from depression, anxiety or any other mood disorder a character flaw. Why are LGAT's brainwashing? Inappropriately characterizing mood disorders as character flaws is self-serving, sick and twisted. It creates guilt, anxiety and pathological need. And when people are desperate they'll pay lots of money for even a glimmer of hope. Hence the LGAT is a supply that creates its own demand.

If I had my way the proponents of such pseudo therapies should be taken out and horse whipped.

Contrary to what LGAT's profess, occasionally acting like an imperfect average human being who admits feeling the whole spectrum of human emotions, instead of affecting a "transformed" "Ned Flanders" or "forum" persona all the time, isn't a character flaw.

The irony is that while the former opens us up to dignified and unlimited potential for positive growth and learning, the latter dooms us to a static existence of perpetual failure, guilt, anxiety and for some even worse...

When you truly understand why that is , perhaps, you'll truly be transformed for the first time in your life.

CNFT

Well, you do make a few good points. We are all brainwashed into this great collective of a society. Told what to buy and what not to, who is desirable to associate with and who isn't, what looks good and what doesn't. It serves a purpose though. It is the glue that holds the social structure of communities together. That we agree what is good and what is bad.

Everyone is brainwashed to some measure (unless you've been living by yourself in the bush your entire life and have been programmed solely on your own experiences) we all program each other to some extent. Our brains are just organic computers after all, and they require information if they are to instruct our bodies on how to thrive. It's a matter of fact, a large portion of your own thinking comes from your parents, your teachers, your friends, advertising, yes anything that has been a role model for you in the past.

What is so disturbing about Landmark is that it is able to take a person who has spent their lives carefully gathering experiences and information from others to contribute to their own programming, and BAM, turn them into another LM clone in one weekend. That it is able to take the core beliefs of a person and shake them loose and replace with LM dogma. And it does this by raising the stakes. By pressure cooking people. Putting people under the impression that if they don't "get it" that their very lives are in danger.

Most advertising might be devious, but I've never walked into a restaurant and read on a menu "order this and like it, and CHOOSE to like it, or else you're not happy and you never will be." That's just bullshit. People need to figure out their own paths to happiness in this life. There is no ultimate formula, because we all have our own programming which generates different behavioral patterns in all of us. You don't have to pretend with me mate, I've been there. I know what it's like to be on the 'roller coaster.' Just try getting off for a moment to get your bearings, you'll start thinking much more clearly and see what's really going on.

Side note: I had a real bad ride. I would wake up in the night in sweats, I was thinking at 100 miles an hour. On the Tuesday morning I woke up feeling so desolate I even contemplated suicide.

All brainwashing/programming has a purpose. You could say that if someone tells you "don't touch fire, it will burn you." that you've been brainwashed for the sake of your own protection. LM is brainwashing you to sell you more brainwashing. That's the bottom line. Every bit of what they teach is just bits of different philosophies all jargoned up into their own little trademarked catch-phrases. A lot of it does make sense and can help you, but it doesn't cost hundreds and thousands of dollars. It's all available at your local library. Why do you think you had to sign an agreement that you will not take notes or use any of it commercially outside of LM? They're trying to protect the aura and mystery surrounding their supposed 'knowledge.' And in your mind, it makes the knowledge all that much more valuable to you, because you had to pay all that money to get it!

I know it's not pleasant to admit to yourself that you've been had, but the further you get into this group, the harder it will be for you to see your way out.

Hellooooooooooo, my turn!!

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Well, now I quite sure that this post will be met with the same dim witted pablum pewking responses that the first post did.

Oh my. I think we‘ve upset somebody. Such “integrity” this fellow is showing by these words, huh? But what did the genius expect by posting on an anti-cult website that attempts to warn people of dangerous cults and unscrupulous scams? I guess his choice of words is an example of the “communication” Landmark instills in it’s flock of loyal adherents. But it’s known that Landmarkians do not tolerate dissent. I’ve read several posts from forum attendees (oops, I’m “piggybacking my post on replies of others, sorry about that, even though I quote those who have enrolled in Landmark). Here’s an example: “I just did [the forum] and actually had a powerful experience, but was really turned off by the constant push to enrol others. …. Special coaching was set up to be better at enrolling others. I dared to complain about this respectfully and in private. Then a seminar leader called and told me that I would no longer be participating.”

As we can see, this former participant learned a good lesson - if you are not willing to provide free recruiting services for Landmark you are of no use to them and your butt is kicked out the door.

When Foodguy said “come on people, think” I laughed outright. Besides the thoroughly arrogant nuance of that remark, the truth is (oh, I forgot, there IS no truth) Landmark trains you NOT to think. LM wants their followers to suppress critical thinking. It’s all part of a particular type of brainwashing called “thought reform”. Consider this from an excellent article on Landmark found at GODISNOWHERE.org entitled “Cult Alert: Landmark/The Forum/EST". “There are many belief systems that teach false and/or dangerous things but which are not cults. Likewise, there are even Christian groups that are really Christian (e.g. International Church of Christ or The Local Church) which are cults because of how they brainwash people into zero-critical-thinking, sheep-like obedience and separating them from the world in some significant sense. Either of these questions alone – if the answer is yes – is reason enough to avoid this organization. But [in the case of Landmark], both accusations are true.”

Landmark seeks to turn off the little voice in the back of your head - they‘ll tell you to ignore the that voice because it is only telling you "stories". Well, that little voice in the back of your head is you thinking. Sometimes its right and sometimes its wrong. But does it make sense to dismiss it all as "stories"? But if Landmark is successful in this goal they got you exactly where they want you. Because then you don’t know WHAT to believe and that’s where they fill in the void they created in your head by telling you you can live a “powerful” life, have everything you want, etc. etc. but not unless you 1) enrol in all of Landmark’s “courses” and 2) get everyone in your life into Landmark. The goal in Thought Reform is to suspend independent thought in you because they can't get your money if they can't control your mind. And they can't control your mind if you use independent thought because if you do you may ask questions about the validity of Landmark's teachings. Try it yourself - just try attending the Forum and challenge what the leader is spewing out - I read where one participant did in fact question his leader's teachings and the leader started yelling a screaming at him, humiliated him in front of everyone, told him he has "rackets" he did everything except address that man's criticism of Landmark.

So please Foodguy, dispense with the “come on people, think” crap, unless you want to break out of your sheep like obedience and do some independent thinking for yourself. Don’t be a hypocrite.

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So many of you simply piggy backed your posts and replies on others. What does this say about you? That YOU have no original thoughts of your own. That you stand by and let other people do your work for you and take the accolades and praises. Perhaps it is you who are brainwashed! You can not come up with your own thoughts to discuss what you want to say?

By saying that are we to dismiss anything said by those who have experienced Landmark and rejected it? Are we to ignore experts in the field of cults who are 99.9% unanimous in classifying Landmark as a cult and warning the public to stay away? Am I supposed to discount what practically every cult information and watchdog service in the world says about Landmark? Am I supposed to disregard the New Zealand cult awareness service when it classifies Landmark as a “dangerous cult”. Should I not take it serious when a Certified Cult Recovery Specialist (CCRC) from the Wellspring Retreat says that they have treated many ex-Landmarkians and many others from cults similar to Landmark? Are all these merely examples of “piggybacking on replies of others?" Boy oh boy, do you realize what you’re doing here? If we were to be consistent with your thinking here we wouldn’t be accepting what ANYBODY says. Why then would we need human interaction and communication? If this is the way you feel, I guess we all should dismiss what anyone says - should I listen to my doctor when he tells me I have cancer or take legal advice from my lawyer if someone is trying to sue me? After all, you don’t seem to have much respect for experts in their respective fields.

I recognize this strategy - this is typical of how Landmarkians dodge the crux of any debate they are destined to lose - typical because this is how they’ve been trained by Landmark leaders. So it seems if you quote someone else who has had a bad experience with LM you then have no credibility - we are simply “applauding someone else’s response”. If my sister-in-law went to Mexico and stayed at the Hotel Fleabag and comes back to tell me how horrible it is, I shouldn’t listen to her but book reservations there anyway? Sure, why not? Ergo, no one can comment on Landmark unless they‘ve taken it. By saying that Foodguy is trying to dismiss every individual who has had a bad experience with LM - why learn from others who have taken it, or rely on experts in various fields, in this case the field of cults? But if that be the case, why then should we accept your word Foodguy or the word of any other Landmark booster?

But you’re not going to get off the hook so easy with me. I don’t fall for Landmark’s feeble detraction strategies. I challenge you Foodguy to respond to me with SPECIFICS of some of the points I made on my last post. Don’t just swiftly with one brush dismiss the entire spectrum of Landmark criticism like you just did and “move on” . If you are true to your convictions, address the following:

1. Why does every cult information and watchdog service in the world classify Landmark as a cult? The ones I found are in the US, UK, Australia, New Zealand, France, Germany, Switzerland, Israel and Belgium? Are they all wrong? Is it an international conspiracy/smear campaign against Landmark?

2. Why are there so many published articles highly critical of Landmark? And I’m not talking articles published in local rags, but in reputable sources like the New York Times, GQ Magazine, New York Magazine, Elle Magazine and Phoenix New Times. Are you concerned that this organization that you defend with such ferocity is subject to so much censure from established public circles?

3. Why does Landmark gauge a leader’s performance on the number of paying participants they bring into the fold instead of how successful they are in helping their “students”?

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If you always get the same coffee
If you always get the same cocktail
If you always have sex the same way
If you always buy the same name brand
If you always BLAH BLAH BLAH

Actually, here Foodguy makes a good point. I agree with this concept. And it forms one of the basics of Landmark’s principles. But is this anything new? Where’s the wisdom here? Where did Landmark get this and other ideas from? Do a little research and you’ll find that not far beneath Landmark’s glossy surface are ideas that consist of nothing more than a stolen concoction of different philosophies such as Zen Buddhism, Sartre, Heidigger and others, along with Scientology, New Age, and basic psychology. An example: Landmark claims that one lives his present life based on his past. Landmark encourages you to break from your past because your past is holding you back. This concept is true but psychologists and psychiatrists have known this for years - how many times have we seen shrinks satirized on TV where the patient lies on a couch and the therapist asks him to describe his childhood? Why is this question asked - to delve into one’s past! This concept is nothing new - I say therapists have known this for years, but it’s common sense!! When I was a kid my MOTHER used to tell me that the world is always changing and I should always be open to new ideas! That’s all it is. How pathetic must one be to feel the need plunk down their hard-earned cash only to be told such common sense. But that’s what Landmark’s all about - stealing ideas, rewording them, repackaging them, putting a shiny gloss on them and selling them for a profit.

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“….it can be suggested that YOU are brainwashed yourself. That the clever advertisers have gotten into YOUR brains and scrambled them up. Chew on that!”

Pretty obvious Foodguy is irritated. I’ve been told by a supporter of LM but who is no longer in it that what he liked about the forum is that there was much debate, albeit friendly debate, on many different philosophical issues. But look how huffy Foodguy gets when the debate is based on the entire Landmark stratum.

Foodguy’s “new” analogy of the roller coaster is completely irrelevant.

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“If you take a roller coaster ride and love it and want to do it again are you brainwashed? What if that roller coaster has signs that say "if you have a heart condition don't ride this ride" and you do and you take the ride anyway and you suffer a choronary. Who is responsible for you?”

Foodguy, let me try one of your arrogant quips on you, “Come on, THINK!!” If you go to the fair and see a roller coaster, you know it’s a roller coaster!! The owner of the roller coaster isn’t trying to deceive you into thinking it’s something else like calling it a merry-go-round. You know it’s a roller coaster by simply looking at it and if you have a heart condition and you ride it anyway, OF COURSE you are responsible if you suffer a heart attack. Well, daah. But your analogy is irrelevant - Landmarkians are deceivers from beginning to end! Look at the title, Landmark EDUCATION. What a lie. They don’t tell you that if you sign up you’ll be taken on a psychological high, performed of course by NON-PSYCHOLOGISTS to get you into a euphoric state at which time they break in on you and pressure you to “invite” everyone in your life to Landmark’s sham “graduations” and other high-pressure sales gatherings. In other words Foodguy, TELL us what’s in store - don’t call your program “education” to deceive people - tell them what will happen to them. And I know they don’t, I attended one of their introductory meetings. If you call it “Education” of course people are going to think it’s just that - some sort of classroom-setting course. And it’s funny how Landmark calls themselves “Education” but even they don’t call what they do education once you’re inside - they call it “coaching”. So why don’t they call themselves “Landmark Coaching”? Obviously because “Education” sounds better. And the better they sound the more money they make. And it’s funny that these “educators” who charge a pretty penny for all their “courses” are not required to have teaching degrees. Now not everyone who teaches needs a teaching degree. You wouldn’t expect PhD’s instructing you on how to weave baskets. But Landmark does some pretty serious stuff - they are getting inside your head and messin’ around with it!! By their own admission they are trying to get you to think in a different way and dismiss concepts you previously held. Well, if I was to subject myself to such an experience I’d want a qualified therapist doing the messing around - not these Landmark “coaches” who have no formal psychological training and certainly not the degree to show for it. Maybe some do, but it’s certainly not a requirement.

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“However, if your friend is doing something that you disapprove of, then you disapprove, stop making them wrong and yourself right. JUST BE THEIR FRIEND! Friends tell friends what they need to hear and not what they want to hear, you want to hear them say that their world revolves around you, that is what you want to hear.”…Because you say that they were lost is your arrogant way of saying you want them back in your life, with conditions. What a friend that makes you! Wow, I wanna be the friend of someone who puts conditions on me, wow that sounds like a fun, fulfilling experience. Now, if you are addicted to a controlled substance or are doing something illegal, then yes, your friends and family should step into to save you.

After blasting Sonnie-dee by saying his statements is based on his “twists”, you are doing the same thing here. You neglect to mention here, no doubt intentionally, that Landmark forcefully prods their participants to have as their prime objective in life to bring everyone they know into the fold, of course at the same time reminding them to bring their credit cards. Foodguy, how can you remain friends with someone who is continually hounding you to join what many regard as a controlling cult? Just like it’s hard to be friends with a religious fanatic who is always trying to recruit you into their religion, unless you want to join you eventually get sick and tired of continually having to listen to this garbage . It’s hard to be friends with someone continually telling you your whole life is “empty and meaningless”, your entire existence is based on nothing but “stories” and “rackets” and the only way to “salvation” is by joining Landmark. After a while Foodguy that gets to be very nerve-wracking. That’s what people mean when they “lose” someone to Landmark. You get to the point to where you either want to avoid this friend or choke him. And it doesn’t do any good to ask them to stop because it‘s become their whole life - once the Landmark brainwashers get through with you, your brain is theirs. But I find it funny that you make absolutely no mention of these typical traits of a dedicated Landmarkian. I guess that’s your “twist” on the subject. Talking out of two sides of your mouth again Foodguy, you’re failing to see “who you are being” here, unless you do recognize it and enjoy being a hypocrite. I mean, ok, we all have our twists on things, but you do too Mr. “Come on People, Think” and so does every Landmarkian. What’s Landmark’s twists on people? That EVERYBODY refuses to take responsibility for their actions, that EVERYBODY lives their “empty and meaningless” existence based on “stories” and “rackets”, that EVERYBODY’s past is holding them back, and EVERYBODY needs Landmark to break through all this, not unlike a Scientologist who tells you EVERYBODY needs to be clear, or a born-again Christian saying EVERYBODY needs to accept Jesus Christ as their saviour or they’ll burn in eternal hellfire.

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What if people, all people, were to take 1 day and be personally responsible for all of their actions? There would be no need for sites like this one. There would be fewer legal battles. The blame game would stop.

You can tell a Landmarkian that you do take responsibility for your actions. He’ll tell you that’s your story. You can be very successful in your life - in fact you can be a millionaire - and tell a Landmarkian you don’t let your past hold you back. Unless you’re a paying Landmark customer he’ll tell you that’s your story and you can do even better. Everything’s a story or racket and will remain so unless you’ve been freed of those shackles by enrolling yourself and everyone else in your life into Landmark.

Apparently the fine folks at Landmark MUST think everybody is in this state because if you attend one of their “informational” meetings or attend a “graduation” of a loved one or friend, the hard-sell is applied to you without regard of whether any of the above applies to you or not. You’re not given any assessment as to whether any or all of these personas apply to you. Just like any for-profit business, it’s sell, sell, sell, and in Landmark’s case, in a very coercive and despicable fashion.

In order for you to be helped by Landmark, you’d have to fit their ideal model and let the past hold you back; you’d have to be the type of person who blames others for your doings and refuses to take responsibility for your actions. If this doesn’t apply to you, then you don’t need Landmark. BITE MY TONGUE. EVERYBODY plays the blame game, EVERYBODY is held back by their past.

Like I said in my last post, the Landmark recruiters are brutal in their hard-sell. It’s like nothing you experienced before in your life. Even Landmark supporters have condemned their behaviour. Consider this post from another website, found at www.discovervancouver.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=41069: “I reccomend [sic] the [forum], best $400 I ever spent. I did however decline the ongoing courses as I didn’t appreciate the high pressure sales tactics they use.”

Indeed, even Landmark officials themselves acknowledge the hard sell. Here is a quote from a 2000 interview in NOW Magazine from Mark Kamin, Landmark’s PR director: “Kamin does get defensive at times, but makes no apologies for the "high-pressure" sales pitch some past Forum participants have reported. He says Landmark is a for-profit company that's in business to stay in business and has something valuable to sell.”

Someone should tell Mr. Kamin that "high pressure sales pitch" cannot co-exist with integrity and making choices in life. But talking out of two sides of your mouth seems to be the norm at Landmark.

This again illustrates Foodguy’s hypocrisy when he says

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“Most people want to blaim [sic] others for their choices. The choice to get pregnant, the choice to marry or not, the choice to have the job you do, the choice to try drugs, etc“.

But let’s say someone chooses to reject Landmark and courteously declines enrollment at one of their meetings? Does the Landmark leader simply say, “Well, thank you for your time and enjoy the rest of your evening?” We all know the answer to that one - BRING OUT THE HEAVY ARTILLARY, IT’S HIGH PRESSURE-SALES TIME!! Landmark recruiters are trained not to take “No” for an answer. They certainly don't respect your choice if you choose to say no to Landmark. They even have courses for Landmark participants on recruiting people in your life. As an aside, how so many people can fall for this crap is totally beyond me. Why don’t these participants tell Landmark to do their OWN advertising and recruiting?

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If you have lost a friend or family member to their involvement with LE then I suggest that they were missing something at home or in their relationship. Perhaps, you could have been there for them, instead of doing what ever you were doing.

Foodguy is definitely correct here. And opportunistic cults pounce on people with such needs. Consider this passage from a paper entitled "Cult Recruiting Methods" by David Henke, chairman of the Watchman Fellowship: “Why do people become susceptible to cult recruitment? Is there a time in anyone’s life when they are more vulnerable? The vulnerable person is someone who lacks something very important. That something can be a network of supportive people like family and friends“. But again, whoever heard of losing someone to an "education"? Just goes to show Landmark is not education.

I took a course about 15 years ago with some similarities to Landmark. It cost way more than the Forum, it was $1000 but it was an extraordinary program - the principles I learned I still use today. And by the way, the course was tax-deductible, i.e. recognized favourably by the government. I wonder if Landmark is tax deductible. NOT!! I did a search to see if anyone complained about it. I found none. If you do a Google Search for Landmark using the keywords Landmark + Forum + est, you get ….well, for those who don’t know, try it yourself and see. Or just navigate around the Rick Ross website. And in this program they didn’t deceive their participants by melding the need to “invite” others as part of the curriculum. (an example of a Landmark homework assignment is to get 10 people “invited” into Landmark - that‘s disgusting) The course I attended consisted of 10 classes once a week, and after about the 6th class at the instructor told us at the end of each subsequent class ( i.e. 4 in all) that he and the company would appreciate us telling anyone in our lives about this program. Then when the entire program was over he asked all of us if we would write a sentence or two about how we enjoyed it and how we feel we got something out of it, which he said would be used in future advertising. And if we didn’t want to we were not pressured into it. And that was it as far as was our opinions on the program was concerned. Everything was up-front - there was no deception, no lies, no blending in our word-of-mouth endorsement of the program with how successful you’ll be in the course, like Landmark does.

One thing that never ceases to amaze me is how Landmarkians so brazenly talk out of two sides of their mouths, but yet they don’t realize it!! This group claims to make you realize “who you are being” but fail in this quest time after time after time. I constantly see it in the on-line posts I read from pro-Landmark posters, but all we have to do for this purpose is to notice what Foodguy has been saying.

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To say that I am brainwashed is to say that you are brainwashed. ….you all sit here and spew forth your opinions…

And what have [i:2c71638bc1]you [/i:2c71638bc1]been doin’ here friend? It seems it’s okay for you to have an opinion but if anyone disagrees with you, you belittle them by describing it as sitting here and spewing forth opinions.

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When you all agree then you all win and your life and opinions are validated.

Well Mr. Hypocrite, that’s exactly what they do at Landmark. You get up, walk over to the podium, say something and everyone applauds you. It’s called “stroking” and is one of Landmark’s powerful retention tools. Let’s face it, we all like stroking once in a while, its all part of validation. Unfortunately, however, stroking can become addictive and those are the ones who stick with Landmark, not unlike a drug addict.

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When someone comes along to suggest a different way of looking at it or a different opinion, you attack like rabid dogs to kill that person and way of thinking. How must your children, spouses and families feel when you do that to them?

So you think just because we handle Landmark in this fashion you assume that’s how we handle EVERY issue in life that comes before us. How do you know we do this to our spouses, families and children? You DON’T know, you yourself said earlier “You don't know me and I don't know you”. You just created a story about all of us just so you can be right. Blatant violation of two of Landmark’s basic principles. But yet you still endorse the program. Why don’t you practice what you preach? Apply Landmark's philosophies on yourself before you lecture us about them!

I would suggest that most if not all of us who you just labelled with one brush only react in this fashion when we see the kind of antics Landmark constantly pulls.

It seems when someone disagrees with you, you become so bitter. The entire tone of your post is that of anger, hatred and over-sensitivity. If you love Landmark so much, why don’t you follow their principles? Doesn’t Landmark tell you to live at peace with yourself? Why are you getting yourself all worked up? Can't you find peace in accepting that we are all different and not everyone is going to think like you? After all, your leaders tell you there’s no such thing as truth, only interpretation, only perception, so following this logic we pathetic souls who contribute to the Rick Ross message board are merely describing such perceptions. So don’t get so irate, feel sorry for us!!! (lmao). Here again, you are not following Landmark’s advice.

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Since participating in the Forum I sleep better, feel better and live more fully. I stopped worrying about looking good. I gave up that others are less, lower and worse than me. I look people in the eye when they speak and are with them when they speak. I have not stopped judging people and making assumptions, because that is what humans do. I am aware of what I am doing, now, and remember that I am speaking with human beings. I still drink, smoke, etc.

Listen dude, if you feel Landmark did you good, then that’s great. Congratulations. But to me what you just said doesn’t seem like much more than common sense, but I guess you’re a bit short on the ole CS. Well, we all need some help every now and then. But if I knew you personally I could have told you all that myself and would have saved you a few bucks!

Didn’t your parents tell you those things when you were young? My parents told me!

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Don't damn me for what I do and I won't damn you, how about that. Stop your hate and anger for a moment. Just consider that what you call wrong someone else calls right and vice versa. If you don't cosider it, you may miss out on something.

Damn, you are a hypocrite!! You say things like “dim witted pablum pewking responses” just because we don’t agree with you and then you want to give us lessons on damning people and “hate and anger”. By your general tone you’ve shown nothing but contempt and anger to us your entire post! FOR GOD SAKES, LOOK AT YOURSELF IN THE MIRROR DUDE. Take stock in yourself. Realize who you are being! Isn’t that what Landmark encourages? Before you encourage others to enrol in Landmark, you should apply Landmark’s “principles” to yourself. Maybe then we can take you seriously.

You call reference and relying on other posts, i.e. what other people say about Landmark as "piggybacking" and say "

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so many of you simply piggy backed your posts and replies on others. What does this say about you? That YOU have no original thoughts of your own. That you stand by and let other people do your work for you and take the accolades and praises. Perhaps it is you who are brainwashed! You can not come up with your own thoughts to discuss what you want to say?"

You also said,

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"Most of you just sat and applauded someone else's response"

[i:2c71638bc1]But yet if you visit the Landmark website, there's an entire web page entitled "What People Say about Landmark"!! [/i:2c71638bc1]Well, well well, isn't that interesting? Landmark's "sitting and applauding someone's else's response"!! Foodguy, I guess it would therefore be reasonable to expect you to contact senior management at the Landmark headquarters in San Francisco, or whoever the hell it is who runs the website and give them a good piece of your mind. After all, the Landmark website is"piggybacking". Are you going to do that Foodguy? Are you going to be consistent and true to your convictions? If so, we Rick Ross message board contributors would LOVE to see a copy of your letter/email to them. You can post it right here.

Or are you going to talk out of two sides of your mouth again and take the position that it's fine and dandy for Landmark to "piggyback" but not anyone else?

I'll wait for a copy of your letter.

Not unexpectedly, the link to this "piggyback" web page is front and center on Landmark's home page - you can't miss it. And of course it is chalked-full of glowing reports from "independent research, case studies, surveys" (I wonder who conducted the surveys), brief quotes and articles in the media. Funny that none of the published articles critical of Landmark I mentioned in my last post is listed. Why not be balanced, Landmark? What happened to the "integrity" you preach so much? Got something to hide?

It's interesting Foodguy how you sit in the dock like a superior court judge and judge everyone's "credibility". You said, "

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The only respondant who has any credibility is Sonnie_dee...."

Trust me when I tell you that your brazen hypocrisy, total bias towards Landmark and inability to see "who you are being" has destroyed any shred of credibility you had, if indeed you had any to begin with.

You said, "

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For the lawsuits. WOW! 3 lawsuits since 1991, this is based on one of the comments. How many times has Coca-Cola been sued?.."

I would agree with this on it's face value, but we don't know how many times Landmark has been sued, and what the content and substance of each suit was - after all, frivolous lawsuits are launched all the time. But corporations don't necessarily publicize legal claims against them. I do know however that Landmark launches lawsuits of its own, for example, against ELLE Magazine in the late 90's and of course this very site, www.culteducation.com. But for some reason Landmark dropped that suit. You see we banter back and forth with Foodguy here, but Landmark doesn't like criticism of their organization and seeks to stifle it. I guess free speech isn't one of Landmark's "lofty principles". Remember Soviet Russia, comrade Foodguy? If you spoke out against communism, you ended up dead or in jail. Its a good thing good ole George W. isn't a Landmarkian!!!

I’m concluding by demonstrating how you violate Landmark’s laughable "secret" 7 commandments for living an extraordinary life. Now if I addressed everything I wanted to on this subject I’d take up another 20 pages and I don’t think Rick Ross would appreciate it, so I’ll just relate what I feel are the most blatant violations:

Be Powerful: be straight in your communication and TAKE WHAT YOU GET" (emphasis added). You sure don't want to take what you get Foodguy, judging by the belligerent and sarcastic tone of your post. Seems you can't take disagreement with your opinions, but opinions according to your own group's dogma are "stories" anyway!! So there's TWO instances of you violating this "commandment". But it wouldn't surprise me if you preached that and all the other commandments to others.

"Be Racket-Free: give up being right - even when you know you were. " What a joke it is to apply that concept to you. You HAVE to be right, that's why you're here in the first place. And when we all didn’t agree with you, i.e. we didn’t make you right, you lowered yourself down to writing a hateful, angry and personally insulting post. Oh, that’s a REAL good example of “integrity” isn’t it? And Landmark as a whole sure hasn’t given up having to be right - if they did they wouldn't exist. What a stupid concept, give up being right. What should we all do, strive to be wrong??

Are there any conclusions I can draw from all this? Hmmm, we all talk out of two sides of our mouths at one time or another, me included - I‘m first to admit it, but then I don’t want to make a career out of it. So I think I’ll steer clear of Landmark. Does Landmark offer good advice on how to live your life? They sure do. But is this advice something anyone with a bit of common sense and good parents wouldn’t already know? It seems that way to me. So I think I’ll steer clear of Landmark - I have better places to put $500.

One final thought. The very fact that Landmark is attacked from so many quarters, as evidenced on the world wide web and this website for starters, should at least make people stop and think. Landmark calls itself “education”. Let’s assume for a moment they are indeed a private educational institute. Can anyone come up with another example of a private educational institute subject to so much criticism? In that vein Landmark sticks out like a sore thumb.

I guess my post seems like a personal attack on you Foodguy. And in that sense I should apologize. But I'm just sick and tired of constantly observing Landmark hypocricy. In other words, don't come on to this site lecturing to us about your beloved Landmark until you start applying Landmark's principles and advice to yourself. I'm sick of being lectured by hypocrites.

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Dynamix
Well, you do make a few good points. We are all brainwashed into this great collective of a society.

Gaaaaahhhh! Did no one read that part of my post?! Where I defined brainwashing according to its techincal definition? People! You have sorely disapointed me.

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Excalibur
Boy oh boy, do you realize what you’re doing here? If we were to be consistent with your thinking here we wouldn’t be accepting what ANYBODY says. Why then would we need human interaction and communication? If this is the way you feel, I guess we all should dismiss what anyone says -

This is part of the sheer insanity of what LGATs "teach". While isolated pieces of the info might make sense, when they're all added up or applied to REAL life, it is unuseable non-sense. But, it takes critical thinking to see it and critical thinking is disabled by LGATs. So, the LGAT converts run around reciting meaningless and stupid "concepts", which they neither understand nor adhere to (because they don't make sense and they don't work -DUH- but the disabled don't see that!!!!!!).