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Dynamix
I speak from experience: you won't feel the walls holding you in until you push up against them. When I left the advanced course half way, one of the volunteers who had been very friendly with me from the beginning went from being my best friend to calling me "pathetic." The Leader told me if I left I was going to end up in a mental hospital.

Shameless attempt at emotional blackmail. How is it they are able to convince people that using this type of tactic is acceptable? Really, it's morally reprehensible. Can you imagine what this type of thing might do to someone who is the tiniest bit insecure? These people should be put in jail, in my opinion.

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It's exactly the same with every LM person I have known. Sweet as pie until you insinuate anything bad about LM then they suddenly turn into vipers.

That's been my experience also, Dynamix. I think it's kind of a reflection of the personality of Werner Erhard that pervades the atmosphere even though he is long gone. He was known to have a nasty temper and to be viciously cruel at times.


Ellen

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foodguypdx
If you have taken the Forum or Advanced Course and had a bad experience, then you had a bad experience, much like at a restaurant. If you have participated and have realized positive results then it is the same as a good restaurant experience. It is all in how you take it and where you take it.

bad analogy, dude. if you go to a restaurant that serves tainted food, you could end up dying.

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Acid Reindeer

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foodguypdx
If you have taken the Forum or Advanced Course and had a bad experience, then you had a bad experience, much like at a restaurant. If you have participated and have realized positive results then it is the same as a good restaurant experience. It is all in how you take it and where you take it.

bad analogy, dude. if you go to a restaurant that serves tainted food, you could end up dying.

Actually. this is a good example of how really flawed Landmark-type logic is - the ~creating your own reality~/~creating your own experience~ stuff, as if the restaurant itself, its owners, its staff, its chef and kitchen crew and their recipies and food preparation had nothing to do with YOUR ~experience.~ No. a Landmarker can ~choose~ to have a "good restaurant experience" eating a bowl of cold rotten fish soup if that's what he ~chooses.~

LOL....pity the poor Landmarker who gets ptomaine and than has to wonder why he ~choose~ a bad restaurant experience.


Ellen

re-editing this post, now to take out the sarcasm, out of sympathy.

I just trawled through your (foodguypdx's) older posts and saw you had posted anti-Landmark posts initially.

either someone has started to borrow your account now or we have the first (that I can think of) example of an anti-Landmark to Landmark convert who has posted here.

I want to say that seem not to realize the difference between statements and arguments.

you say that only the easily swayed grads make phone calls/do whatever. Landmark has no problem with recruiting those people or having them make the calls. you left that part out. if it had its way, it would make everyone equally pliable to its program, game plan, call it what you will. you left that part out too.

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If your friend or family member has participated in any LE program and has come out the other side twisted or not themselves, I submit that they were not well to begin with.

two things of note.

one, Landmark does screen out people with the more blatant problems (psychiatric histories, jail time, whatever) (BTW, I have a psychiatric history and have gotten arrested more than once... not putting anyone down... also, incidentally think of psychiatry as a scam that makes Landmark seem nice and benevolent, but there you), it does not (nor, could it, in pragmatic moneymaking terms) ensure that non one gets hurt. and people do get hurt.

two, you exhibit the classic lack of sympathy shown by many (not all) graduates of Landmark and shown more so (I think) by its management. if it happened to you, you caused it, if it happened to you, fuck you. don't whine to, or at, us.

in Landmarkland, no can force anyone to do anything, true?

so you have a blanket explanation right there.

no need to play coy.

just say, "hey, no one ever forces anyone to do anything, ever" whether in Landmark or anywhere else of course that sounds a mite evil to outsiders you want to downplay that. since you didn't it, it sounds, indeed, to those of who haven't taken, pretty evil, or rather specifically evil in justifying Landmark's policiies.

there you have it, an idelogy designed specifically to justify the policy of the corporation that sells it and creates it.

It is my guess that foodguy is not going to answer any of our replies. He was asking for INTELLIGENT responses. But what I read above is probably not INTELLIGENT enough for him. Shame on us!

The problem is you cannot "reason" with this kind of people. The New Age philosophy is about a paradigm shift that asks for replacing "reason" by "experiencing" through your "feelings" and "emotions" only. So if foodguy' feelings and emotions tells him Landmark is great, nothing will change his mind, even though his mind was manipulated. Nothing unless he comes back to "reason", but for that he needs to realize our responses are INTELLIGENT. He will not.


BTW, I found this interesting reading on the "Art of Controversy". I think it resembles many of the tactics used by Landmark. The "technology" is nothing new. It was written in 1896 by Arthur Shopenhauer. See:

[www.searchlores.org]

and also

[etext.library.adelaide.edu.au]

I see from the RickRoss archives that there have been three lawsuits since 1991 against Landmark Education (and 850,000 customers in that time frame):

1) Stephanie Ney versus Landmark Education (where the jury ruled in favor of Landmark Education and the appeals court upheld the verdict in favor of Landmark Education). The jury outright did not believe her, and the appeals court rejected in written arguments only as she did not assert that the Landmark Forum physically did anthing to her.

2) Tracy Neff -- sexual harrassmant settled out of court. Landmark Education lacked a sexual harrassment policy at the time and got pulled in on this. The incidents (alleged) happened off-premisis.

3) Been versus Weed, cross Defendent Landmark Education.
Jason Weed, within a week of attending a Landmark Forum, shot and killed Robert Jenkins, a postal worker. The US government had jurisidiction because it was a postal worker. Jason Weed was found not guilty by reason of insanity at trial and held in government custody. At the hearing to release Jason Weed, both the defense and the prosecution witness said it was a mental defect; the US Government's witness ruled out the Landmark Forum outright.

Does anyone have any other litigation since 1991? Est is a different story. I don't know what is there, but I would like to investigate each case in detail.

<<In closing, I invite any INTELLIGENT response to this post. If you have taken the Forum or Advanced Course and had a bad experience, then you had a bad experience, much like at a restaurant. If you have participated and have realized positive results then it is the same as a good restaurant experience. It is all in how you take it and where you take it.>>

<BIG SIGH>I guess with a name like, foodguy, restaurant analogies were inevitable.

Okay, I'll bite:

(Get it? Bite?)

So food poisoning is all in how you take it?!

If there's a bug in my salad I secretly wanted a little extra protein and so manifested it?

If the cook burned the food then I simply click my heels three times, affirm the opposite and we're all back in Kansas eating black angus medium rare?

If the waiter/waitress secretly hates their job/life and comes across like a sourpuss it's all my fault, huh, even though till that moment one didn't even know she existed?

An armed robber shoots up the local McDonalds and it's simply a point of view?!

Here's a clue for you: People have countless subconscious thoughts that they have little or even no awareness, yet each has profound potential to effect them in all areas of their lives--mentally, emotionally and even physically. No sane and ethical doctor or therapist would ever blame them for it.

Yet now YOU imply that we're now also supposed to be responsible for the very thoughts, feelings and actions of people and places and presumeably even inanimate objects that previously we didn't even realize existed?

Heh? How's that workin' for ya?

Unless you're some covert New Age guru, I got tell you Jack, it don't compute.

Unless LGAT's, regardless of their non-religious claims to the public, are secretly indoctrinating their followers into such concepts as reincarnation, Higher Self awareness, synchronicity and psychic manifestation of reality, your impled "we create our own reality" philosophy make zero sense unless, of course it's actually all about the sales, and it's meant to belittle and engender a sense of irrational guilt, anxiety and neediness and then, POOF: LGAT X the panacea for all such mental/emotional ills is presented.

It's a miracle!

Peace and happiness for only $375.00.

Okay to sum it up: Are LGAT's brainwashing and/or manipulation?

Let's see: Passing on irrational thoughts to others that in turn may engender in them real mood disorders such as anxiety, depression and irrational neediness, say, for a particularly dubious LGAT?

Yes, by any INTELLIGENT RATIONAL and EDUCATED definition, that's brainwashing and manipulation: salesmanship disguised as therapy, an enemy disguised as a friend.

CNFT

Well, now I quite sure that this post will be met with the same dim witted pablum pewking responses that the first post did. I only use these words, because this is the overall tone of YOUR responses. Some very good points were made, some were very weak rhetoric of the isolationists that swear our government is covering up UFO's. Come on people think. Most of you just sat and applauded someone else's response. The only respondant who has any credibility is Sonnie_dee and I question the time frame and location of the involvement with LE.

So onward:


If you always get the same coffee
If you always get the same cocktail
If you always have sex the same way
If you always buy the same name brand
If you always BLAH BLAH BLAH
If you always anything it can be suggested that YOU are brainwashed yourself. That the clever advertisers have gotten into YOUR brains and scrambled them up. Chew on that!

When I spoke of the restaurant analogy several of you hopped on that to make crazy claims of what I was saying. To put it into terms that YOU can understand: If you take a rollercoaster ride and love it and want to do it again are you brainwashed? What if that rollercoaster has signs that say "if you have a heart condition don't ride this ride" and you do and you take the ride anyway and you suffer a choronary. Who is responsible for you? Apparently not you! Most people want to blaim others for their choices. The choice to get pregnant, the choice to marry or not, the choice to have the job you do, the choice to try drugs, etc. So many people have spoken about what is wrong with the world and our society. What if people, all people, were to take 1 day and be personally responsible for all of their actions? There would be no need for sites like this one. There would be fewer legal battles. The blame game would stop.

So many of you simply piggy backed your posts and replies on others. What does this say about you? That YOU have no original thoughts of your own. That you stand by and let other people do your work for you and take the accolades and praises. Perhaps it is you who are brainwashed! You can not come up with your own thoughts to discuss what you want to say?

How many of you have participated, recently, in the Forum or other seminars. Sonnie_dee I know from your posts that you were in the organization for a while, but when? Are your accounts recent. Consider that if you were to have worked at ENRON during the scandle, you probably would have had scandlous thoughts. However, what about a different point in time. The reality was only changed by what you thought of it. So to sit here and spew forth YOUR experiences. However, they are yours with your twist on them, not my twist, yours.

Several of you latched onto my hospitality background. Ureka! I am in the food biz. So, when you go to a restaurant, not McDonald's, and you have a bad experience then it is bad, period. That is all that was said. Some of you brought in very outlandish claims and statements about what I wrote. To put words in my mouth does nothing but make you feel better. So, to say it again, the Forum is like going to a restaurant...if you like what happened then it could be called a good experience, if you did not like what happened then it could be called a bad experience. It is up to YOU to decide for yourself. Because, what you call bad and what the next person calls bad could very well be 2 entirely different things. There is no interpretation here, it is simply up to you to decide for yourself what is good and bad for you! That is why you can make choices and decissions.

For the lawsuits. WOW! 3 lawsuits since 1991, this is based on one of the comments. How many times has Coca-Cola been sued? How about Ford? How about any major corporation? To say that because someone was sued makes them bad or evil is saying that anyone who is sued, remember we are a litigious society, is bad or evil. Have you ever been sued? How about a family member? Your company? A friend? Look around and see what you are saying about those companies that YOU support. When you buy the product of a company that has EVER been sued you are supporting them, period.

If you have lost a friend or family member to their involvement with LE then I suggest that they were missing something at home or in their relationship. Perhaps, you could have been there for them, instead of doing what ever you were doing. Because you say that they were lost is your arrogant way of saying you want them back in your life, with conditions. What a friend that makes you! Wow, I wanna be the friend of someone who puts conditions on me, wow that sounds like a fun, fulfilling experience. Now, if you are addicted to a controlled substance or are doing something illegal, then yes, your friends and family should step into to save you. However, if your friend is doing something that you disapprove of, then you disapprove, stop making them wrong and yourself right. JUST BE THEIR FRIEND! Friends tell friends what they need to hear and not what they want to hear, you want to hear them say that their world revolves around you, that is what you want to hear.

In closing, to say that I am brainwashed is to say that you are brainwashed. You don't know me and I don't know you. Yet you all sit here and spew forth your opinions and sit in the delight of your righeousness. When you all agree then you all win and your life and opinions are validated. When someone comes along to suggest a different way of looking at it or a different opinion, you attack like rabid dogs to kill that person and way of thinking. How must your children, spouses and families feel when you do that to them? Since participating in the Forum I sleep better, feel better and live more fully. I stopped worrying about looking good. I gave up that others are less, lower and worse than me. I look people in the eye when they speak and are with them when they speak. I have not stopped judging people and making assumptions, because that is what humans do. I am aware of what I am doing, now, and remember that I am speaking with human beings. I still drink, smoke, etc. I don't get phone calls asking me to a Special Evening. I don't corner people and use mind tricks to get them to do what I want them to do, that is preposterous. Before you judge something I suggest that you do more than one sided research. To say it another way "3 out of 5 dentists recommend...." ok. Which 3 out of which 5 are we talking about? Don't damn me for what I do and I won't damn you, how about that. Stop your hate and anger for a moment. Just consider that what you call wrong someone else callls right and vice versa. If you don't cosider it, you may miss out on something.

Thank you for reading.

What is your purpose here?

Seems like you are here just to defend LE, not to have a meaningful exchange.

There is more than ample evidence through complaints, bad press, litigation and research--going back to EST that Landmark courses are a needless risk. After all, LE is based about Erhard's "technology," they paid him for it and his brother runs LE.

There are much more credible alternatives such as continuing education at an accreditted school, support groups facilitated by a licensed counselor and professioal and specifically focused on a need or issue, counseling from a local licensed theraptist and/or specialized treatment program.

Why sign your legal rights away for a trial by jury if you are injured through LE paperwork and then jump into that LGAT program with some unlicensed facilitator?

There are less risky and more prudent choices in my opinion.

LGATs are so general and essentially constructed to download the idiosyncratic philosophy of the creator, for example Werner Erhard's composite philosophy through LE.

People with issues or problems should realize one size doesn't fit everyone. That is, an LGAT like LE is no cure-all that fits everyone's indivdiual issue or situation, despite its claims.

And LE has no accuntability, meaningful credentialing of its facilitatiors etc.

LE also lacks any peer reviewed and published research that demonstrates objectively that it acheives meaningful measurable results. They instead rely upon anecdotal stories to support their claims of success.

Again, there are more practical, viable and meaningful alternatives.

And given LE's very troubled history viable alternatives to their "one size fits all" philosophy to address life's dilemmas seems both logical and far more practical.

Think about it.

And read the research, articles and information gathered within this database about EST, the Forum and LE.

You also might read the research linked about Mass Marathon Training and other LGATs like Lifespring, Impact, NXIVM, Sterling etc.

They all are basically the same, just run by different people.

That is, if you are seriously interesting in information as opposed to being here just to argue and defend LE as an apologist.

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foodguypdx
Well, now I quite sure that this post will be met with the same dim witted pablum pewking responses that the first post did. I only use these words, because this is the overall tone of YOUR responses. Some very good points were made, some were very weak rhetoric of the isolationists that swear our government is covering up UFO's. Come on people think. Most of you just sat and applauded someone else's response. The only respondant who has any credibility is Sonnie_dee and I question the time frame and location of the involvement with LE.

In my last post, I said you would never respond. Actually, I knew you would in order to prove me wrong. I manipulated you!!!

I knew also that our responses would not be INTELLIGENT enough for you. This was very predictable.

But your words are meaningless. Your problem is that you are not authentic. You will never be authentic by following Landmark's philosophy. Next, you will run to your coach and ask him what is the next "quick-fix" to reach authenticity. What do you need? More coaching? Perhaps never-ending advanced classes?

Since you mentioned UFO's, why don't you try Scientology for a change? Remember Werner Erhard was a Scientologist! He and Ron Hubbard are from the same school. It's all the same except for Xenu the Intergalactic leader. What??? You don't believe in Xenu? How do you know if you've never been audited? How do you know about something you don't know? Perhaps you are running a racket here? Run to the nearest Scientology center and ask for a free personality test. You think you are great with your Landmark distinctions? I am sure they will find a problem with you. So, is this deception or are you running a racket here again?

Like you say ... THINK!