I have taken both the Forum and Advanced Course. To those who speak of brainwashing or manipulation I challenge you to defend those points of view. I have read time and time again how "I know someone who did it" or "I lost someone". If you yourself have not done the Forum and are basing your statements, etc. on hear say then you are speaking only from that realm of understanding.

I have studied guided imagery and the like and I am here to tell all that the Forum DOES use some of the techniques, but it is NOT hypnosis. There are no controlled breathing exercises, no suggestions of how to be, nothing.

If your friend or family member has participated in any LE program and has come out the other side twisted or not themselves, I submit that they were not well to begin with. I submit that they were looking for someone to help them, since, perhaps they could not help themselves. Many people suffer in silence and do not ask the ones closest to them for help. Consider the stats on suicide, how many family or friends saw it coming?

LE provides an opportunity to consider another way of thinking and being, PERIOD. The Forum leaders are all highly charismatic speakers who are trained for upto 7 years before leading a Forum or Advanced Course. They are not billed as therapists are doctors, even though some are just that.

The statements about the room are consistent with ANY large conference room in the world. HVAC units operate the same way, temperatures flucuate, even in your houses. Consider if you were to sit in ANY chair for a prolonged period of time, your butt would hurt. As for not allowing food or drink, other than water, in the room is consistent with rental agreements that LE has with building owners to help maintain the cleanliness of the space, with out incurring any extra cleaning costs.

There is ample time during EVERY break to eat, rehydrate, smoke, etc. if you choose. No person can force another person to make a phone call, and if they can I suggest that the person is easily swayed. As for stories about having to go to dinner as a group is only true in the Advanced Course and the group is a small group that you are with through out the weekend. However, as stated earlier no one can force you to do anything you do not want to.

In closing, I invite any INTELLIGENT response to this post. If you have taken the Forum or Advanced Course and had a bad experience, then you had a bad experience, much like at a restaurant. If you have participated and have realized positive results then it is the same as a good restaurant experience. It is all in how you take it and where you take it.

Landmark Forum generates constant complaints from families and graduates.

There are comments posted within this message board about this.

The company also has a history of personal injury lawsuits, a wrongful death claim and quite a bit of bad press.

See [www.culteducation.com]

To better understand the inherent problems with mass marathon training like the Forum and other Landmark courses note this research:

See [www.culteducation.com]

Blaming the victims of Landmark may be part of Werner Erhard's philosophy, but it is not a meaningful response to the harm done by its mass marathon training outside its subculture.

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foodguypdx
I have taken both the Forum and Advanced Course. To those who speak of brainwashing or manipulation I challenge you to defend those points of view.

...

In closing, I invite any INTELLIGENT response to this post. If you have taken the Forum or Advanced Course and had a bad experience, then you had a bad experience, much like at a restaurant. If you have participated and have realized positive results then it is the same as a good restaurant experience. It is all in how you take it and where you take it.

This is typical New Age rethoric again and again.

... I know a secret you don't know!
... This is not something you can reason!!!
... You must experience it !!!

Well all I can say is I'm not going to fall for it.

Landmark claims to have developed a "Technology" and promises a "Transformation" of your "mind" in a weekend.

So, if you are not prepared to say it's "Thought Reform", "Mind manipulation" or more generically "Brainwashing", well lets call it by it's real name then. Using Landmark's own terminology, what they have developped is a "MIND TRANSFORMATION TECHNOLOGY". Now, I ask you, how can you achieve MIND TRANSFORMATION without MIND MANIPULATION??? What's the secret? The fact is, there are no secrets, only deceipt.

Landmark is all about MANIPULATING peoples MIND (read mind manipulation) so that they fall for their rethoric. And you have become a victim and a deployable agent, except that your are blind and you cannot see it. The blinds leading the blinds! That's what it is.

Now, because my response is probably not to your satisfaction, you will say it is not an INTELLIGENT response. This is very MANIPULATIVE of you to ask only for INTELLIGENT response. This way, you have all the freedom to reject any arguments you dislike. You give us no choice, only the illusion of choice. Manipulation all around, again and again.

But I know a secret too ...

As someone who has done the courses I believe that Landmark is a dangerous manipulate company. I agree with what Midonov has said.

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The fact is, there are no secrets, only deceipt.

I have watched landmark forum leaders rip to shreads another person. They take pride in humliating another person in front of a group. I have been at the receiving end of a LOT of inappropriate "coaching" as a staff member and are quite thankful to be out of it all.

You say that landmark does not brainwash yet your whole post reeks of landmark speak.

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The Forum leaders are all highly charismatic speakers who are trained for upto 7 years before leading a Forum or Advanced Course. They are not billed as therapists are doctors, even though some are just that.

Yes the leaders are charismatic other wise no one would stay, its all part of the manipulation. Yes they might take up to seven years to train, this would be a leader who was "not successful" as quickly as others. and Yes some are doctors and therapists. The concern I have is the training is in house, it is not provided by an external organisation whom one can trust. Having undergone significant leadership training within landmark I can assure you that at the start the training is purely about breaking a person so that landmark can then mold the person to a copy of their "image". The trainee leader learns by rote everything landmark tells them and then they spew it back to others. Trainee leaders even get taught and worked with on their "shares" (what they got out of landmark)

Now like midonov you probably will not think my reply 'Intelligent'!! I however am glad I no longer speak using phrases/words where the meaning has been corrupted by landmark.

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foodguypdx
I have taken both the Forum and Advanced Course. To those who speak of brainwashing or manipulation I challenge you to defend those points of view.

Since you've "taken" these so-called "courses," and by indications of your writing here, you've apparently been brainwashed and not likely to be capable of evaluating any response, your own brainwashing, or anything else related to Landmark or cult-type manipulation. (Unless you're just another "ringer" looking to stir things up, of course.)

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I have read time and time again how "I know someone who did it" or "I lost someone". If you yourself have not done the Forum and are basing your statements, etc. on hear say then you are speaking only from that realm of understanding.

.....One wonders how you will come up with a way to dismiss what sonnie_dee has written.

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I have studied guided imagery and the like and I am here to tell all that the Forum DOES use some of the techniques, but it is NOT hypnosis. There are no controlled breathing exercises, no suggestions of how to be, nothing.

It's been identified as hypnosis by people with better qualifications than you who have "studied guided imagery and the like."

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If your friend or family member has participated in any LE program and has come out the other side twisted or not themselves, I submit that they were not well to begin with. I submit that they were looking for someone to help them, since, perhaps they could not help themselves. Many people suffer in silence and do not ask the ones closest to them for help. Consider the stats on suicide, how many family or friends saw it coming?

Landmark, and est before, (in typical cult-fashion), have had a long history of blaming their victims. Both Werner Erhard and L. Ron Hubbard joked about getting their followers to believe that they, themselves were the ~cause~ of their own problems. You are helping them out and perpetuating this bit of stupidity by repeating it.

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LE provides an opportunity to consider another way of thinking and being, PERIOD.

Oh really....

That's it, huh? Gee, do they tell people that up front? I don't know to many people who would be willing to fork over any hard-earned cash for that.

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The Forum leaders are all highly charismatic speakers who are trained for upto 7 years before leading a Forum or Advanced Course. They are not billed as therapists are doctors, even though some are just that.

The Forum "leaders" are selected for their persuasiveness and their ability to recruit/convince people to sign up for "programs." No academic or professional qualifications are required.

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The statements about the room are consistent with ANY large conference room in the world. HVAC units operate the same way, temperatures flucuate, even in your houses. Consider if you were to sit in ANY chair for a prolonged period of time, your butt would hurt. As for not allowing food or drink, other than water, in the room is consistent with rental agreements that LE has with building owners to help maintain the cleanliness of the space, with out incurring any extra cleaning costs.

That what they told you? And you're doing us all the favor of bringing their pre-approved, stock response over here?

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There is ample time during EVERY break to eat, rehydrate, smoke, etc. if you choose. No person can force another person to make a phone call, and if they can I suggest that the person is easily swayed. As for stories about having to go to dinner as a group is only true in the Advanced Course and the group is a small group that you are with through out the weekend. However, as stated earlier no one can force you to do anything you do not want to.

You've just disproven your own assertion (unless you really DID want to be used as a parrot, unpaid (?) spokesperson, and/or mouthpiece for Landmark).

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In closing, I invite any INTELLIGENT response to this post. If you have taken the Forum or Advanced Course and had a bad experience, then you had a bad experience, much like at a restaurant. If you have participated and have realized positive results then it is the same as a good restaurant experience. It is all in how you take it and where you take it.

I can't think of any intelligent person who would liken a cult to a restaurant.



Ellen

You know, I have been having a long on-line discussion with a guy who defends these kind of organizations (I have a website to alert the public about them, since there is a LGAT boom here in my country).

The thing is, he says exactly the same things foodguypdx said. And when I say "exactly" I mean it ( in spanish of course, but they use the very same old arguments against criticism.)

So, LGAT victims speak exactly the same way even when they are in different countries and speak different languages.

If that is not brainwashing, I don't know what it is.

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foodguypdx
I have taken both the Forum and Advanced Course. To those who speak of brainwashing or manipulation I challenge you to defend those points of view. I have read time and time again how "I know someone who did it" or "I lost someone". If you yourself have not done the Forum and are basing your statements, etc. on hear say then you are speaking only from that realm of understanding.

I could fill up the Rick Ross website responding to this post but I won’t. However, I will comment on the above quote because I hear this argument frequently from Landmark lovers.

If you yourself have not done the Forum, blah blah blah blah.
Keep your mouth shut.
You can’t possibly comment on something you never experienced.
Don’t knock it till you’ve tried it.
Try it yourself before judging it.
Don’t be cynical, resigned or arrogant.
Stop having to be right.
You have an anti-Landmark racket.
Etc, etc, etc.

I’ve heard it all.

Oh boy, where to start. I’ve never taken cocaine, does it mean I have to experience it to know it’s poison? I’ve never jumped off a 40 story office tower, but do I know better not to even consider it?

I’ve never taken the forum but I’ve read countless accounts, both pro and con, from those who have enrolled. Lots of people love Landmark and will swear by it. Lots of people say it’s a cult, a scam, a money grab, a brainwashing racket, etc., and lots of people say they really got something out of the forum but didn’t like certain things about the group such as their extremist hard-sell, manipulating/lying to people and the arrogant nature of those running the programs. The problem that I find is that there are too many complainers. If one or two or three or 10 or 100 or 500 people complained about Landmark, I could understand a Landmark supporter’s point of view. After all, nothing in this world is immune to criticism - some would even criticise the beauty of the Taj Mahal. But I’ve done extensive internet research and found so much major criticism I had to stand up and take notice.

Here’s just some of what I found that apparently sheds light on what Landmark is really about:

Let's start with published articles, which are available on-line: Pay Money, Be Happy (New York Magazine, 2001); Tune Up, Tune In, Transform?;The Cult of Fashion (New York Times,2005) Defending Your Life (GQ Magazine, May 2005);Drive Thru Deliverance (Phoenix New Times, 2000);The EST of Friends;Do You Believe in Miracles? (Elle Magazine, 1998);In the Grip of the Therapy Tough-Guys, NOW Magazine (2000).

A MUST read article on Landmark: [www.theologyweb.com]. Here are a couple of excerpts: "Psychologists and psychiatrists have extensively studied both the methodologies and the effects of cult brainwashing in its many forms, throughout the 20th century and into the new millennium. Landmark uses a particular brainwashing technique called “thought reform.”...Thirty minutes dedicated to a couple of online search engines can produce a laundry list of anti-cult and cult watchdog organizations that believe Landmark is definitely a cult. There are even organizations like ReFoCuS Network -- the Recovering Former Cult Survivors Network -- which has a chapter devoted to people who have escaped from the Landmark cult and are now recovering from the damage inflicted in that time with Landmark. Why would this exist if Landmark were not a cult?"

For further reading, check out:
The Apologetics Index - apologeticsindex.org (Christian)
The Watchman Fellowship (Christian)
American Family Foundation (the world's largest, secular counter-cult org.)
The Cultic Studies Journal
The Cult Awareness Network
The Swiss Cult Advisory Organization
Dienst für Analyse und Prävention (Service for Analysis and Prevention, a German org.)
Project Outreach

Also, check out the Cult Awareness and watchdog websites in the UK, New Zealand, Australia, Israel and France (just do a Google search using key words “cult” + "Landmark" and the country). They all warn people against getting mixed up with Landmark. The French government officially classifies Landmark as a cult and has outlawed Landmark‘s “volunteering“.

The Wellspring Retreat in Albany, Ohio is a residential treatment facility that treats those who have been damaged by cults. They have treated many ex-Landmarkians and others from similar groups. Check out their website: www.wellspringretreat.org. You can email them with a request for information on their work with ex-Landmarkians.

Visit these sites: www.assaultedthoughts/cults/landmarkvsestandscientology. Also try www.cultnews.com. And: www.ex-cult.org/Groups/Landmark/

See what ordinary everyday people think about Landmark. There’s tons of blogs and message boards out there, lots of people will tell you what a scam Landmark is. But of course there are others who will say Landmark is beneficial to them.

Here’s what some have said about Landmark: "My son has gone through the program, and is now sitting in a hospital under psychiatric care. Where are they when their program goes bad? They don't want anything to do with him! Afraid of the lawsuit maybe. this is not an isolated incident - it happens often - there are many cases where it has ended in murder and/or suicide."

From another blog: "The big SUCK about Landmark is the "guest conversation". This is also called "sharing". Unfortunately, every Landmark course I've taken spent about 30% of its time talking about inviting friends (guests) to check out Landmark. It's a big thing inside of Landmark. The number of guests you bring directly reflects on the capability of the course leader. It's one of the statistics they use to determine how successful a course leader is. Now, you can see that this is a useful statistic if the organization is all about making money. But an organization that is more concerned about its participants than its profit shouldn't be using this to gauge how well the course went-- it should use something to do with what the participants accomplished, perhaps the particular goals they set out for themselves at the beginning of the course. I can't emphasize enough how significant this is inside of Landmark. It makes sense when you look at the origin of the education-- it was derived from the sales techniques used by Werner Erhard to improve the abilities of his book-selling sales team."

The best site of all is right here, the Rick Ross website. This message board has harrowing stories of Landmark survivors that would shock you. They describe how Landmark powerfully controls you to get your money. You could spend hours on that site alone reading about Landmark. Also try www.culteducation.com/groups/landmark.html

An interesting and informative article on the subject: [skepdic.com]
apparently Landmark is responsible for a number of mental and physical breakdowns.

See what anti-cultist Steven Hassan says about Landmark - his articles are on-line.

Please note the above is by no means an exhaustive presentation of the negative on-line feedback on Landmark.

This is my argument: you talk about intelligence but with all this information I just outlined it would not be intelligent to dismiss it all. There has to be something here. There’s just too much.

You say Landmark doesn’t brainwash, but the experts in the fields - the cult information services all over the world - claim otherwise. Your position is that someone like me can’t comment on Landmark because I never took it. But even if I did, I am not a professional in the field of cults - but the cult information services ARE; I’d feel better relying on their expertise and their opinions on Landmark than to form my own opinion on this subject - even if I did attend.

I take special notice of your statement: “If you yourself have not done the Forum and are basing your statements, etc. on hear say”. Does that mean you don’t believe in word-of-mouth? Do you think word-of-mouth opinions are worthless? If so I can tell you the vast majority of businessmen and women would disagree with you. In fact they’d tell you word-of-mouth is the most effective and accurate advertising of all!

And if you are saying we shouldn't listen to the nay-sayers, why then should we listen to you? Why the double standard? I would imagine you would like us all to try LM, but just like I said, why should we just listen to you and not those who took Landmark and warned against it? If their words are hearsay then why aren't your's? You're talking out of two sides of your mouth friend. Is that what Landmark teaches in its communication "courses"?

I wonder if a drug pusher ever said "If you yourself have not done cocaine and are basing your opinions on hearsay then you are speaking only from that realm of understanding"?

To illustrate what decievers and liars they are at Landmark is (anything to make a buck) see my thread entitled "Landmark's Incidious Business Practices" and you'll read about the repugnant way Landmark lures unsuspecting victims into its grand ballrooms to catch you off guard and then put the extremist hard-sell on you. Their high-pressure sales tactics make used car salesmen look like baby ducklings! Others have described these Landmark recruiters as "brutal". And why not consider their very title: Landmark "Education"? Is it really an educational institution like you'd find in a classroom setting or is it an organization applying psychological or psychiatric techniques? After all, before you can participate in the Forum, you must assure the Landmark leader that in the past six months you have not taken any prescriptions for mood-altering or chemical imbalances. Nor can you have been hospitalized for a psychiatric problem. Nor can you have been under the care of a psychiatrist and discontinued treatment against advice. Does that not seem odd that if Landmark is simply an "educational" organization you have to declare all the above as not applying to you? I've never heard of someone with such a history being barred from a school. And if Landmark is "education", for the money they charge in tuition fees I'd like to know what kind of teaching degrees they have.

It seems like Landmark is much more of psychology without a licence rather than an educational institute.

Having said all this, I am not going to deny that the forum has some helpful insights and ideas on how to live your life. Nor can I deny that many have benefitted from the forum. But there doesn't seem to be anything original about the forum - it's principles are based on a number of stolen concepts and ideas derived from well-established philosophers such as Heidegger and Sartre, as well as New Age, Scientology and basic psychology. And of course so much of Landmark is based on Zen Buddhism, which you can read up on in the library. Many ex-Landmarkians have remarked that they could have acquired the same wisdom by reading a few Dr. Phil books. One ex-Landmarkian said he could have learned the same by watching "What the Bleep Do You Know" on DVD a couple of times. Now [i:b5542d09d4]this[/i:b5542d09d4] sounds like a good idea - renting a DVD is a tiny fraction of the cost of Landmark and you won't have to worry about the video store manager badgering you to rent more of his DVD's or getting you to bring all your family and friends into his store! lol

Some people have said Landmark has helped them gid rid of their baggage. But Landmark has baggage of its own. There are safer, less costly ways of reaping the same alleged benefits you'd get from this cult.

A couple of friends of mine did the Forum, and invited me to a couple of their open houses. I was already familiar with most of the concepts they introduced--which are useful--but it wasn't to my taste.

My problem was that the emotional tenor of the evenings was so relentlessly upbeat. I don't trust people who don't look sad once in a while.

My friends don't strike me as cult members. But I suppose it's possible for some people to go overboard with anything.

Cash

Thank you, Excalibur! I appreciate your perspective, your points, the links and other supportive info.

While I was not involved with Landmark, I was involved with an organization that sounds like Landmark. There are a number of "courses"/"trainings" that are similar to Landmark, all using the same "philosophy" and techniques for mind manipulation.

Being only newly aware of the CON done on me, it's very difficult for me to untangle my mind to even identify the trickery, much less to articulate it! The trickery itself makes it hard to see and identify the tricks that were used on me. I am slowly uncovering a betrayal that goes so deep it keeps shocking me. I am outraged that these SCAMS are legal!!!!!!!!

While I have a difficult time talking specifically about the tricks, most everything I read about Landmark (etc.) and thought reform describes what I experienced. What I have read on Rick Ross has been most helpful to me, as I endeavor to dissect and grasp the Landmark-type CON I was involved in.

I agree that the beneficial aspects of Landmark (etc.) are best obtained in safe ways. For me, the damage incurred was way too high a price for the so-called benefits. However, when I was under the spell I spoke glowingly about the benefits. I had no idea the cost I had paid. It was all cleverly hidden and disguised. All part of the well-crafted LGAT LIE!

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foodguypdx
I have taken both the Forum and Advanced Course. To those who speak of brainwashing or manipulation I challenge you to defend those points of view. I have read time and time again how "I know someone who did it" or "I lost someone". If you yourself have not done the Forum and are basing your statements, etc. on hear say then you are speaking only from that realm of understanding.

I have studied guided imagery and the like and I am here to tell all that the Forum DOES use some of the techniques, but it is NOT hypnosis. There are no controlled breathing exercises, no suggestions of how to be, nothing.

If your friend or family member has participated in any LE program and has come out the other side twisted or not themselves, I submit that they were not well to begin with. I submit that they were looking for someone to help them, since, perhaps they could not help themselves. Many people suffer in silence and do not ask the ones closest to them for help. Consider the stats on suicide, how many family or friends saw it coming?

LE provides an opportunity to consider another way of thinking and being, PERIOD. The Forum leaders are all highly charismatic speakers who are trained for upto 7 years before leading a Forum or Advanced Course. They are not billed as therapists are doctors, even though some are just that.

The statements about the room are consistent with ANY large conference room in the world. HVAC units operate the same way, temperatures flucuate, even in your houses. Consider if you were to sit in ANY chair for a prolonged period of time, your butt would hurt. As for not allowing food or drink, other than water, in the room is consistent with rental agreements that LE has with building owners to help maintain the cleanliness of the space, with out incurring any extra cleaning costs.

There is ample time during EVERY break to eat, rehydrate, smoke, etc. if you choose. No person can force another person to make a phone call, and if they can I suggest that the person is easily swayed. As for stories about having to go to dinner as a group is only true in the Advanced Course and the group is a small group that you are with through out the weekend. However, as stated earlier no one can force you to do anything you do not want to.

In closing, I invite any INTELLIGENT response to this post. If you have taken the Forum or Advanced Course and had a bad experience, then you had a bad experience, much like at a restaurant. If you have participated and have realized positive results then it is the same as a good restaurant experience. It is all in how you take it and where you take it.

What are you doing here? If you really have no doubts at all about LM, then why are you asking us these questions? To prove how wrong we all are and how right you are? Now who's "running a racket." :roll:

This board is for people who have had painful and damaging experiences at LGATs and need an understanding ear. It's fine with us that you like LM and that it works for you. Go ahead and spend the rest of your life on the endless quest of being 'authentic' and 'enrolling.' I think you'll find you'll start loving yourself a whole lot more if you just start living your life and stop trying to find yourself so fascinating.

But just remember this the next time you invite someone along to one of these events. Different people react to this 'education' in different ways. Any one of your guests could completely collapse under the pressure of this group, yes, even if they've never under taken any therapy in their lives and consider their mental state to be completely healthy. Do you think LM will be there to "clean up their mess" if one of your friends has a mental breakdown? No, they'll give them their refund and send them on their way, washing their hands of any wrong doing. Your buddy's friends and family will be responsible for picking up the pieces, ironically enough, the very people LM wanted your buddy to con into a forum introduction.

I speak from experience: you won't feel the walls holding you in until you push up against them. When I left the advanced course half way, one of the volunteers who had been very friendly with me from the beginning went from being my best friend to calling me "pathetic." The Leader told me if I left I was going to end up in a mental hospital.

It's exactly the same with every LM person I have known. Sweet as pie until you insinuate anything bad about LM then they suddenly turn into vipers.