Mankind project
Posted by:
Ivy
()
Date: April 22, 2006 09:31AM
wquercus
but didn't you write this in another board?
("No one is deprived of ANYTHING during a weekend."
You are not deprived of reading material, of your shampoo and razor and soap, of "sacred items" you brought? You are not fed a meager ration of oranges and granola and oatmeal?
"There is no mysterious 'secrecy'"
No? Would you tell us about Saturday night? Would you tell your wife about it? How about Sunday morning?
"There are a bunch of good reasons for the confidentiality" -- yes, imagine your wife's face if you told her all that went on!)
HELLO< LET BREAK MARRIAGE VOW, I THINK IT WILL GO OUT AND DO AS I PLEASE AND COME HOME AND LIE LIE LIE LIE,
(Imagine your wife face?????) Well dont you think if she would be mortified about your weekend then perhaps you shouldn't be doing it?
My saying is (If you can't go out /or do something and let me know what is going on, without feeling the need to leave something out, then perhaps you shouldn't be doing it!)
but didn't you write this in another board?
("No one is deprived of ANYTHING during a weekend."
You are not deprived of reading material, of your shampoo and razor and soap, of "sacred items" you brought? You are not fed a meager ration of oranges and granola and oatmeal?
"There is no mysterious 'secrecy'"
No? Would you tell us about Saturday night? Would you tell your wife about it? How about Sunday morning?
"There are a bunch of good reasons for the confidentiality" -- yes, imagine your wife's face if you told her all that went on!)
HELLO< LET BREAK MARRIAGE VOW, I THINK IT WILL GO OUT AND DO AS I PLEASE AND COME HOME AND LIE LIE LIE LIE,
(Imagine your wife face?????) Well dont you think if she would be mortified about your weekend then perhaps you shouldn't be doing it?
My saying is (If you can't go out /or do something and let me know what is going on, without feeling the need to leave something out, then perhaps you shouldn't be doing it!)
Mankind project
Posted by:
wquercus
()
Date: April 22, 2006 12:13PM
[b:73b175dc18]Moderator note:
"wquercus" posted information here about the Mankind Project, which he admitted attending. Subsequently, more than a year later "wquercus" returned to delete all his posts regarding the Mankind Project. However, portions of his statements remain as quoted/noted by other members posting here.
Apparently, "wquercus" came to realize that his statements provided proof concerning what goes on inside the Mankind Project and he therefore decided that he didn't want that information to remain here publicly visible.
The Mankind Project and its supporters have done everything possible to keep its practices secret, as anyone reading threads about that organization at this message board should readily realize.[/b:73b175dc18]
"wquercus" posted information here about the Mankind Project, which he admitted attending. Subsequently, more than a year later "wquercus" returned to delete all his posts regarding the Mankind Project. However, portions of his statements remain as quoted/noted by other members posting here.
Apparently, "wquercus" came to realize that his statements provided proof concerning what goes on inside the Mankind Project and he therefore decided that he didn't want that information to remain here publicly visible.
The Mankind Project and its supporters have done everything possible to keep its practices secret, as anyone reading threads about that organization at this message board should readily realize.[/b:73b175dc18]
Mankind project
Posted by:
RU?ing
()
Date: April 22, 2006 08:58PM
Quote
RU?ing
Still. I'm looking forward to a proper conversation with a MKP'er. Please, can't someone from their PR department come and chat?!
.Quote
feldspar
don't worry, someone else will be along. The next one will probably try to show understanding while trying to convince you that youre wrong. Probably will agree with many of your points. That will probably be followed by one accusing you of theft of proprietary material by posting the manuals with veiled threats of legal action
Quote
feldspar
apparently I was wrong
what makes you say that? I'm keeping quiet. I have no experience directly of the weekend. There are four people posting at the moment who do. I am interested in their interpretations, and not only of the weekend, but in what way it has affected their communication.
How do you people who have gone through the weekend feel about being given enforced sleep deprivation?
Mankind project
Posted by:
feldspar
()
Date: April 22, 2006 10:41PM
what makes you say that?
Quote
i got it backwards.
Mankind project
Posted by:
RU?ing
()
Date: April 22, 2006 11:37PM
Quote
feldspar
i got it backwards.
Lol - i thought you may have meant that!
Neer mind - If any of them can explain this =
Quote
"Recently, physicists have discovered scientifically what some ancient philosophical systems and religions have claimed for millennia. Namely that all matter is the same stuff!"
Anyone who has gone on the weekend should be familiar with this, it is repeated 3 times and is a principle point in the ideology of this group, this is taken as truth and their entire version of reality is based upon it. Someone on another thread claimed MKP held no 'dogma or doctrines'. Welllllll now, lets not beat around the bush - whats this then?!
Could anyone please name these physicists? This is very important. I didn't realise things had changed so much since I was at school!
Mankind project
Posted by:
RU?ing
()
Date: April 22, 2006 11:39PM
Quote
wquercus
Sorry, Ivy, I can't really tell what's what, you've got some of my quotes and some of the ones I was responding to ...
But I think I'm making the same point you are. If you can't tell your wife, or are ashamed to, the things that happened, there's a problem.
You are - but it took me a couple of reads to get it. Now you use the quote bars it'll be easier!
Mankind project
Posted by:
wquercus
()
Date: April 22, 2006 11:50PM
[b:55b7711875]Moderator note:
"wquercus" posted information here about the Mankind Project, which he admitted attending. Subsequently, more than a year later "wquercus" returned to delete all his posts regarding the Mankind Project. However, portions of his statements remain as quoted/noted by other members posting here.
Apparently, "wquercus" came to realize that his statements provided proof concerning what goes on inside the Mankind Project and he therefore decided that he didn't want that information to remain here publicly visible.
The Mankind Project and its supporters have done everything possible to keep its practices secret, as anyone reading threads about that organization at this message board should readily realize.[/b:55b7711875]
"wquercus" posted information here about the Mankind Project, which he admitted attending. Subsequently, more than a year later "wquercus" returned to delete all his posts regarding the Mankind Project. However, portions of his statements remain as quoted/noted by other members posting here.
Apparently, "wquercus" came to realize that his statements provided proof concerning what goes on inside the Mankind Project and he therefore decided that he didn't want that information to remain here publicly visible.
The Mankind Project and its supporters have done everything possible to keep its practices secret, as anyone reading threads about that organization at this message board should readily realize.[/b:55b7711875]
Mankind project
Posted by:
RU?ing
()
Date: April 23, 2006 04:55AM
Quote
wquercus
I didn't experience this. We went to bed around midnight or so (not all that unusual) and got up probably around 7 or so. Our sleep wasn't interrupted.
Then you must have had a much more liberal weekend to the one many people have admitted having. Also very different to the 3-4 hours recommended in the guidlines I have read. Drums being played after 3-4 hours would be a disruption of my sleep, this programme is for insomniacs!
Quote
wquercus
They didn't want us dozing off during the guided meditations, and so suggested keeping an arm raised, but this was so that we would continue to participate.
I'm pretty sure that is a mind coercion technique - I'm going to look into this.
Quote
wquercus
More bothersome to me were the meager rations and the mandatory cold shower on Saturday.
Something [b:df4cf24d16]mandatory[/b:df4cf24d16]?
Mankind project
Posted by:
Jehovah's wetness
()
Date: April 23, 2006 09:47AM
I'm inclined to agree with the way you think RU?ing. Still the sort of objections you raise seem applicable to virtually any group dynamic. There are after all, coercive influences in groups, not thought of to be cults, where the only means of discrepancy lies in the popularity of convention, which is arbitrary.
Your mode of assesment seems seems to attribute negativity to the nature of identifying into sublimation, in favor of some idealistic autonomy, which may prove just as fanciful. I'm not suggesting that it is unimpotant to think critically, but by the same token, your assesments are made by second-hand information rather than bing gathered empirically and the bias you bring to critiquing the "warriors" is evident in the distrust you have in somthing as hoaky (and quite frankly inane when I did it) as a guided meditation. (although what reaction shoud I expect from an anti cult message board other than: "someone pass the Kool aid while their eyes are still closed"; then again, such distrust is the *convention* here)
In the end, what I took from the group was that I didn't need to rise to the defense of my ego in the midst of others trying to subvert my identity, I have forged an independent enough sense of personal boudaries and self respect to be able to take what I wish from those circumstances and leave behind what I don't. And I have to say in defense of the culternity, that I learned alot. I was able to integrate alot of the work that I did there with a Jungian analyst (who I had been working with before and after the "adventure")
Undeniably, it is a gamble to give a group intimate secrets surrounding the core myths that I have constructed around myself. Naturally, therapy and time are more gentle means of accessing such things over ten years or so, but lets face it, most men, particularly ones who have invested in enormous psychic rigidity around the schizophrenic myths of "captain invulnerable CEO" tend to regard such soft approaches as meaningless at best (and usually have much more descritive deprecations). I saw such men, men who have access to Billions of dollars, finally break into that territory and I know of at least two who have started going to therapy since. Do independent groups or people in this group of 30,000 possess some vagaries that invade innapropiately into mens live and cause problems? I have no doubt. and those people are bathwater that should be tossed out -- it is the baby you are missing.
Your mode of assesment seems seems to attribute negativity to the nature of identifying into sublimation, in favor of some idealistic autonomy, which may prove just as fanciful. I'm not suggesting that it is unimpotant to think critically, but by the same token, your assesments are made by second-hand information rather than bing gathered empirically and the bias you bring to critiquing the "warriors" is evident in the distrust you have in somthing as hoaky (and quite frankly inane when I did it) as a guided meditation. (although what reaction shoud I expect from an anti cult message board other than: "someone pass the Kool aid while their eyes are still closed"; then again, such distrust is the *convention* here)
In the end, what I took from the group was that I didn't need to rise to the defense of my ego in the midst of others trying to subvert my identity, I have forged an independent enough sense of personal boudaries and self respect to be able to take what I wish from those circumstances and leave behind what I don't. And I have to say in defense of the culternity, that I learned alot. I was able to integrate alot of the work that I did there with a Jungian analyst (who I had been working with before and after the "adventure")
Undeniably, it is a gamble to give a group intimate secrets surrounding the core myths that I have constructed around myself. Naturally, therapy and time are more gentle means of accessing such things over ten years or so, but lets face it, most men, particularly ones who have invested in enormous psychic rigidity around the schizophrenic myths of "captain invulnerable CEO" tend to regard such soft approaches as meaningless at best (and usually have much more descritive deprecations). I saw such men, men who have access to Billions of dollars, finally break into that territory and I know of at least two who have started going to therapy since. Do independent groups or people in this group of 30,000 possess some vagaries that invade innapropiately into mens live and cause problems? I have no doubt. and those people are bathwater that should be tossed out -- it is the baby you are missing.
Mankind project
Posted by:
RU?ing
()
Date: April 23, 2006 08:47PM
Quote
Jehovah's wetness
I'm inclined to agree with the way you think RU?ing. Still the sort of objections you raise seem applicable to virtually any group dynamic. There are after all, coercive influences in groups, not thought of to be cults, where the only means of discrepancy lies in the popularity of convention, which is arbitrary.
I of course can see your point, I studied group dynamics and group communication as part of my formal education. The style of my objections can certainly be applied to any group dynamic, but I for one certainly wouldn't apply it to all groups!
I must stress that I have never viewed MKP as a cult, and will defend it being called so. MKP has more in common with est, Landmark and Crimson Circle as a groupthink, mind coercion weekend.
To think that the only critical mean of analysis is the popularity of a convention seems a little strange, especially in unlicensed psychological experiments. It shows a shocking lack of regard for new 'brothers' to recommend unlicensed psychological experiments. Very low in integrity.
I would highlight any form of coercion against someones will or knowledge - so MKP recruitment falls under that catagory.Quote
="Jehovah's wetness"
Your mode of assesment seems seems to attribute negativity to the nature of identifying into sublimation, in favor of some idealistic autonomy, which may prove just as fanciful.
Then, due to not knowing me, you are misinterpreting me. I do not attribute negativity to the nature of identifying on a connotational level. Semiotics is the bedrock of my viewpoint on this. In what sense am i promoting an idealistic autonomy? I'm getting confused by your second guesses.
My issue with this mode of connecting with the subconcious areas of a persons mind, is the fact that a bunch of untrained pop-psychologists are the only people on hand, and who expect people to sign their rights away before they know that Gestalt and Jungian psychology will be practiced on them.Quote
="Jehovah's wetness"
I'm not suggesting that it is unimpotant to think critically, but by the same token, your assesments are made by second-hand information rather than bing gathered empirically and the bias you bring to critiquing the "warriors" is evident in the distrust you have in somthing as hoaky (and quite frankly inane when I did it) as a guided meditation.
To reduce MKP down to a 'guided meditation' is disinformation - and showing a serious lack of integrity - what if someone depressed were to read that and think that was all it was?
Second hand information? I doubt you've read all I have that has been produced by these guys! C'mon - I've studied these techniques, from the origianl LSD and Gestalt experiments to est and Landmark. I do admit to not having undergone a Jungian psychological weekend in a wood, but then, I'm a healthy male, why would I need to?!Quote
="Jehovah's wetness"
(although what reaction shoud I expect from an anti cult message board other than: "someone pass the Kool aid while their eyes are still closed"; then again, such distrust is the *convention* here)
you are showing a certain lack of distrust to state that. Whats the matter? And to distrust a group which repeatedly denies using psychological methods, that is has protocols and principles, that holds dildos.... that tells men to LIE to other men?! How are we meant to trust an organisation that promotes that worldview?Quote
="Jehovah's wetness"
And I have to say in defense of the culternity, that I learned alot. I was able to integrate alot of the work that I did there with a Jungian analyst (who I had been working with before and after the "adventure")
Erm, all you have done is defend it so far...
And so you learnt a lot of psychological tools? Erm.... they may have well fed you LSD - just as illegal.
Did your Jungian analyst tell you to go?
Did your Jungian analyst sign your form to say you were well enough to go?
Did you tell MKP you were seeing an analyst - did they recommend not attending?
I'm interested, all your accounts are psychological, not educational.
Again - every MKP'er ignores my questions about the ideology. What of the principles and protocols?! (not you as such jehovahs wetness)Quote
="Jehovah's wetness"
Undeniably, it is a gamble to give a group intimate secrets surrounding the core myths that I have constructed around myself. Naturally, therapy and time are more gentle means of accessing such things over ten years or so, but lets face it, most men, particularly ones who have invested in enormous psychic rigidity around the schizophrenic myths of "captain invulnerable CEO" tend to regard such soft approaches as meaningless at best (and usually have much more descritive deprecations). I saw such men, men who have access to Billions of dollars, finally break into that territory and I know of at least two who have started going to therapy since.
Its a gamble giving a trained psychologist that information, what about an untrained bunch of 12-steppers? Whilst signing all legal rights to any compensation away? I'd hazard on 'reckless' to be polite.
And, of course, what you are describing is illegal in the western world.Quote
="Jehovah's wetness"
Do independent groups or people in this group of 30,000 possess some vagaries that invade innapropiately into mens live and cause problems? I have no doubt. and those people are bathwater that should be tossed out -- it is the baby you are missing.
I'm not missing the baby, Jehovah's wetness, the baby (the underlying ideology) is what I am most worried about with this group. Have you read the protocols for the weekend? or the principles of the order? Can you explain to me the physics claim of this group? These are the 'baby', not emotive testimonials of qualititive impressions!
I'm sorry if this has come across as harsh Jehovah's wetness, and I am certainly not aiming my comments at you personally, it is just you sem to have slipped into defending MKP in, well, there is no other way of saying this, in the same robotic MKP'ers do!
[b:e372505282]This is an LGAT. Shady and illegal if worded truthfully, preying on lost souls, filling them with christo-mytho-poetic nonsense about all matter is light.[/b:e372505282] Oh boy.
I understand what you said before aboutQuote
="Jehovah's wetness"
That men have difficulty with experiencing emotion, or being present to true pain is evident prima facia. That we live in a society that teaches men that this is acceptable or encouraged also goes without saying. That most men need such an "Alice in Wonderland" shockingly different enviornment also seems logical. It is the lack of intellectual integrity and group bullying (that one fids in fraternities every bit as much as cults) that makes me suspicious. The question than becomes a matter of trust.
Something is wrong, and something must be done. It is obvious. But MKP is not an answer, it is a financial con. You are a therapist, you should know its deeper than MKP can go, we need a real paradigm shift of conciousness, as a whole group, not just men, not just women, the whole SPECIES!!!! - and I include I in that we ;o)
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