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frank_d
Yeah, Girl Scouts was all I could think of at the time of writing. I am only trying to point out that we need to properly define what 'preoccupied' means.
According to the Encarta® World English Dictionary (not that this is the "ultimate" source for defining words), preoccupied means to be "completely absorbed in doing or thinking about something else, sometimes excessively," so if we are talking about being preoccupied with money, no, I don't think that mkp is, as I think that they have other goals that they are concerned with meeting, not just their finanncial goals. And I would certainly say that the Girl Scounts aren't preoccupied with money either. I would say, though, that mkp is more concerned with greater amounts of money than the Girl Scouts.
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As far as I know there is no 'Vice President in charge of getting men to give money'. so, I would argue that they NEED to raise money but it is not the focus or purpose of the organization - that's all.
But are you certain that there isn't a Chief Financial Officer? I'm sure the Girl Scouts organization has one, and I am sure that each chapter of the mkp has someone in charge of the finances of that organization--any well organized group should.
My main concern with the money is that mkp is making money. It is not a non-profit organization as it touts, as there are real profits being made above and beyond the money used to rent the location, buy the granola and apples, and photocopy their manuals. Girl Scout leaders are paid nothing. The rewards of mentoring girls is enough. Nor do the Girl Scout leaders have to pay to staff Girl Scout functions.
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One thing to remember, though, is that most other organizations are more upfront about what they are all about BEFORE initiates pay to become members.
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Yeah, that's one of the more difficult arguments to resolve, at least for me. Here is what I think: On the one hand MKP wants to help men with their weekend warrior thing. On the other hand their weekend warrior thing has in it some aspects that AMERICANS find uncomfortable. Mostly the nudity.
Yes, nudity is a part of it, but I also think that the psychology community would be up in arms about the carpet work, the lack of after care, nutrition and sleep deprivation, etc. I actually think that the nudity is one of the lesser problems--except for those attending the weekends who have been previously sexually abused. I don't think that pressured nudity is a good thing for them, as it retraumatizes them. Even if the man does not feel that he has to take his clothes off, being around others who are taking their clothes off in front of him without his permission can retraumatize a man who has a history of sexual abuse. A lisenced counselor would never do this, and if he/she did, there are repercussions for him/her, whereas mkp has not accountability boards. it's all internally regulated--annd that does not make for an unbiased or ethical system of checks and balances.
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If I were to go to Europe - or to a nudist camp and say the same thing you'd be likely to think it is a good idea.
Perhaps, perhaps not. But if you read RU?ing's posts (he is from the UK), it doesn't appear that he is supportive of the groupthink mentality that leads to the disrobing. The taboo of nudity does vary from culture to culture--you are correct. But again, for me, it is not the nudity per se. It is that their are men who have a history of sexual abuse who are attending these weekends, and whether he is from the US or Europe, uninformed consent for nude activities can lead to severe psychological stress. This is not a way to empower and heal men. Initiates should know up front. Informed consent is empowering. Secrecy is not. And frankly, Frank, the argument that "I wouldn't have gone had I known" isn't a valid or logical excuse/reason for the secrecy.
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I can understand why MKP feels they have to keep it 'low key' so that they can GET us amreican men who have issues with emotions and our bodies to actually GO and take that leap of faith, that risk.
But the risks that some men (as reported on these boards) have had to endure are too high to pay, don't you think? I agree many American men could stand to deal with issues of emotion and bodies, but I think that there are safer therapies with less risk taking.
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Now, in the groups I could see the 'groupthink' attitude but I would ask "if you were a member of any other 'club' (Knights of Columbus, Freemasons) wouldn't THEY have their own 'groupthink? If you started to oppose their ideals and traditions you'd be disliked too.
I'm not sure, as I am unfamiliar with these groups. But it certainly doesn't take place in traditonal therapy groups (such an out-patient licensed, accredited mental health agency) or in other mentoring groups (like the Girl Scounts).
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Yes, the 'respect' level goes down after the 'break up'. Neither side is very tolerant of the other but couldn't that be because the 'ex-mkp' person is usually unhappy with MKP, and the 'pro-mkp' person is not, so they feel like they are opponants? Just a thought.
Could be. But when I dropped out of my sorority b/c I didn't have the finances to stay in, nor did I really subscribe to some of its regulations, I was not shunned. I still had the same friends from the chapter and even lived with one of them my senior year of college. I respected her decision to stay and she respected my decision to leave. My hubby is not getting that same respect from those still in mkp.
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Nobady _makes_ you get 'naked'. The whole 'nakedness is a big deal in all these discussions.
I think that while the nakedness is certainly an issue, but it is not the main issue. It is the groupthink strategies of the mkp that leads to the nakedness of most of the participants. I think that it is the groupthink that is the biggest deal. And the lack of proper nutrition and sleep is what leads to more effective groupthink. Notice, too, that the naked events happen later in the weekend--after no protein intake (which is required for proper brain funtioning and logical decision making). To be honest, this is my main concern: groupthink which is facilitated via lack of proper nutrition and sleep. Although I'm not crazy about the money making either (on the backs on men who are looking for something and hope that this secret weekend can provide it for them).
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The certified / licensed counselors argument is something I think they should do more with AT THE WEEKEND and other times. I think there are going to be some people who are in an emotioanlly fragile time in their lives and the NWTA could be more than they can handle.
Good, I'm glad you agree on this one. Safety is crucial.
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When I went I was under the impression that they do have some kind of staff person there with some real training. I recall talking to a staff person at the dinner who was telling us the kind of costs they incur with insurance, licensing and other fees which included some special staff.
I'm glad that your weekend appeared to be staffed well. The weekend my hubby attended had a "safety coordinator," but this person had no counseling licesure, and thus IMO no professional skills in determining whose emotional or mental safety might be at risk. Plus, even if he did have the proper licesure, one person looking out for 50 initiates is not a very good ration for ennsuring safety. And as for what you were told about the insurance and licensing, mkp is not licensed, so I am confused by this statement. And as for insurance, from what my hubby has been told, it may be for legal insurance, as I know there have been some lawsuits regarding personal harm done to some of the recruits.
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First, I don't think that you can come to the conculsion that his meds were not working, as you don't know what he was taking or whether he was taking them as directed. And as for therapy, if you are not clicking with a therapist, you can tell them that and they are legally required to assist you in finding another if you need one (they don't shun you for your decision). But I do agree that some men are happier in their lives post joining mkp. I'm still not sure that the end justifies the means, expecially for those who are survivors of abuse. There are much more empowering ways of helping people through hard times available to MKP but they choose not to use them.
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Oh come on, you're normally excellent debating skills got lost in the first part of your response.
Thanks for the compliment. I was just trying to say that you were making assumptions about the meds and therapy--that you cannot state these opinions as fact. I don't think that this point negates the rest of your pointt. I am sorry that my organization of my thoughts gave you that opinion. In reality, I was just trying to vary my argument structure sinnce you had commmented earlier about my system for debating. So I thought I would mix it up a bit. ;-)
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That's not a rebuttal to the real question of 'how can we say that someone whose life sucked before MKP is being harmed?". It takes the focus away from the actual question.
I think that this is an individual assessment. I shouldn't really assess someone else's experience. I can only assess my hubby's experience from his sharing with me, and his life didn't suck before, but he thought that he would see if this weekend could bring any benefits to some of the relationships in his life since his family member highly recommended it and he trusted this person. And since being in the group, he has bridged some gaps in these relationships, but he (as a licensed counselor) doesn't feel that the end justifies the means. He knows from experience and research that there are more empowering ways of helping men to heal relationships in their lives. That's all I was trying to say. Sorry if it got muddled.
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I would not have gone. I would have thought they were silly or weird. But afterwards I was glad I went. I didn't like the few times my beliefs or attitude was 'challenged' but in hindsight it was like 'tough love'. Meaning their 'goal' wasn't to beat me up, it was to make me feel and think.
Again, I am glad that you got something out of the weekend, and apparently think that the ends did justify the means for you. But I will say that I don't think that the goal of the weekend is to make you think. If you look back at the excerpts of the guts manual posted on this board, it appears that the goal is to make men feel, NOT think. Further, my hubby said that he was kept too busy to think, and certainly was not provided the proper nutrition to think fully, logically, or completely independently.
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But who has the problem? Me because I find these things (nudity, talking about my feelings with other men, sitting in a sweat lodge) embarrasing? NObody 'coerced' me to go. I went because I was wanting to do something that was 'very different' and the people I spoke to who had gone (whom I respected) said it was, um, way different.
Now your normally effective debating style has been compromised. ;-) First, the mkp does use coercion, from the very start with the excuses (aka lies) for carpooling. To the confidentiality agreement (without informed consent). Coercion can take place without force. Lying and secrecy to get others to do what you want them to do can constitute coercion. Groupthink leads to coercion. And you questioning whether you (or other mkp initiates) have the problem because of an adversion to nudity suggests that it is okay for the mkp to keep the nudity a secret. And for someone who has been sexually abused before, this rhetoric suggests that the victim could be the one with the problem . . . which is a problem.
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If their goal was to BE abusive it would continue the whole weekend. It did not.
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So, are you saying that the 'abusive' weekend ends with the 'honeymoon' and that is ENOUGH to keep someone 'hooked'? I felt the 'honeymoon' feelings after the weekend in the form of an emotional high. I went to the I-Group training for aout 3 weeks and then stopped because it was boring. I guess they didn't abuse me enough. ;)
It is enough to keep some men hooked, primarily those with a history of abuse. It gets them back into a dependent relationship with someone/someone who has the power to control them. Some men do not have the wearwithall and confidence that you seem to have. And again, not all chapters abuse in the ways in which we have read about on these boards, but it does exist in others, and it certainly wasn't the victim's fault that it happened.
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I agree with this 100% and I think they could do this with an independent organization and still keep their 'process' private to the general public. I thought I saw a paper on thisn where they had interviewd a lot of MKP 'weekenders' and got their before and after impressions. SOme university study by a grad student.
Cool. However, when other therapies or drugs are researched to prove their effectiveness, the processes (and ingredients) for creating them must be examined. I don't think that a mkp study could answer my prevailing question of the end justifying the means without studying the processes as well. If the paper you mention is the one that feldspar posted and asked me about earlier this week, then I have read it and have posted my response to it. If you've seen another one, please send it on. I welcome reading a more balanced research project on the mkp. You and me and our need for "balance." ;-)
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As always, a pleasure to debate with you!
And with you, as well. Have a good one.