Quote
curiousnycgirl

But what is the purpose of the MKP plan? What are they trying to achieve with their bushwacking? I've heard first hand accounts of how this group has saved some marriages and has damaged and destroyed others. Is that their plan? To eliminate certain women from the lives of MKP men? Surely there must be more to it.

The purpose of MKP is to meet the ego needs of the leaders. Whether they save or destroy marriages is irrelevant. A destroyed marriage is collateral damage; a saved marriage is collateral benefit. There is no more to it.

Why do magicians employ beautiful assistants, smoke and mirrors, and all sorts of elaborate hand gestures? To misdirect the audience, that's why. (NB: people who buy tickets to a magic show know they're paying to be tricked; people who sign up for LGATs don't. A crucial difference.)

Marriage advice, personal growth, spiritual insights-- these are the smoke and mirrors of the LGAT set. Leaders direct members' attention to affirmations, "sharing", workbooks, group activities --- and away from the con. If people with disposable income believed lush green lawns were the key to personal fulfillment, we'd be besieged by LGATs focused on lawn care. The LGATs' content doesn't matter to its leaders; they'll use whatever gets butts in the seats. They don't care what happens to those butts as long as they get their cash and/or adoration.

In fact, if something good happens to an attendee after a workshop, that's great, because that attendee will give the LGAT the credit. And if something bad happens, well, the attendee misused his chakras, or whatever.

Many people have gotten off drugs by joining Scientology --does that mean Scientology's not a cult? Or does it mean that finding a new focus for your energy and getting support from well-intentioned people (most cult/LGAT members are very kind, honorable, well-intentioned people) occasionally helps break an addiction?

The most important consideration is a group's dynamics, not its track record or claims; James Ray was a dangerous LGAT leader back in the days when he still sold speed-reading courses, well before he ever (allegedly) manslaughtered anyone. The many legitimate groups that help people with relationships, spiritual growth, etc., are quite unlike LGATs; there's tons of resources on this site that outline the differences.

Christa THANK YOU - for simply answering my questions directly and honestly in a manner that helps me understand. Coincidently I am watching a TV show (produced by ABC news) right now about James Ray and his weekend seminars in Arizona.

What you have explained is so foreign to me, I honestly didn't see it. I am trying to wrap my brain around it and it is hard. Rather than coming straight to this section of this site, I will look around at others and get myself educated.

Once again - thank you.

Christa. Curious,
I'm in MKP please ask me questions. I promise to be honest. What I have to gain out of this is that legitamate group that is supposedly different and as good for me. I'm not getting any younger and I don't drink. I have read alot of what you have read...but I'm not sure telling Curious that it's bad for her man is the best info for her. It sounds as if her man needs something.

I'll tell Curious this. If your man is weak minded..don't send him. He'll be broke in no time. That's the one thing about this group that makes me so angry. It's the one thing I want to change about this group. If men are trying to help men..you try to help them..you don't friggen profit off them.

Ask me questions. i will give you data, not opinion.

Tom

j845:

There have been a number of MKP supporters that have come to this thread apparently in an effort to spin and/or apologize for the group.

Please understand that attempting to place the blame on supposedly "weak minded" people that participate in MKP for any problems or injuries they may sustain linked to the the training is typical of the "victim bashing" that MKP supporters have attempted to pass off here.

If you have actually "read" this thread then you must know how manipulative MKP is, as evidenced by its manual, which is excerpted and critiqued on this thread.

See [forum.culteducation.com]

MKP, not unlike other mass marathon training/large group awareness training groups, exhibits the usual inherent liabilities.

See [www.culteducation.com]

1. They lack adequate participant-selection criteria.

2. They lack reliable norms, supervision, and adequate training for leaders.

3. They lack clearly defined responsibility.

4. They sometimes foster pseudoauthenticity and pseudoreality.

5. They sometimes foster inappropriate patterns of relationships.

6. They sometimes ignore the necessity and utility of ego defenses.

7. They sometimes teach the covert value of total exposure instead of valuing personal differences.

8. They sometimes foster impulsive personality styles and behavioral strategies.

9. They sometimes devalue critical thinking in favor of "experiencing" without self-analysis or reflection.

10. They sometimes ignore stated goals, misrepresent their actual techniques, and obfuscate their real agenda.

11. They sometimes focus too much on structural self-awareness techniques and misplace the goal of democratic education; as a result participants may learn more about themselves and less about group process.

12. They pay inadequate attention to decisions regarding time limitations. This may lead to increased pressure on some participants to unconsciously "fabricate" a cure.

13. They fail to adequately consider the "psychonoxious" or deleterious effects of group participation (or] adverse countertransference reactions.

And such groups were determined to be dangerous when:

1. Leaders had rigid, unbending beliefs about what participants should experience and believe, how they should behave in the group. and when they should change.

2. Leaders had no sense of differential diagnosis and assessment skills, valued cathartic emotional breakthroughs as the ultimate therapeutic experience, and sadistically pressed to create or force a breakthrough in every participant.

3. Leaders had an evangelical system of belief that was the one single pathway to salvation.

4. Leaders were true believers and sealed their doctrine off from discomforting data or disquieting results and tended to discount a poor result by, "blaming the victim."

In my opinion MKP exhibits all four of these danger signs.

See [www.culteducation.com]

The coercive persuasion techniques cited within this study have been matched to the MKP manual, which is quoted at the beginning of this thread.

Based upon the MKP manual and the coercive persuasion techniques it exhibits, MKP deeply troubled history of bad press, complaints and personal injuries (e.g. wrongful death lawsuit) I would not recommend MKP to anyone for anything.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2010 01:25AM by rrmoderator.

rr....trust me I'm not spinning anything with any agenda that is different than yours. Awareness. Let me explain the weak minded comment. I was referring to Kerby, the young woman in Ray's SweatLodge. I was wondering..how the hell could you let someone control your mind enough to really allow yourself to die? Look. I've been there. I've been in sweat lodges..run by MKP dudes, one of whom could not stress safety more. and another who I basically wanted to beat. I was in this one lodge, and I cried as much as I needed to cry and I was ready to leave..and I said "All my relations, open the door"..which is basically the code for letting people know you will be crawling out passed them and to show care as to not have an accident on the rocks. Well this one guy told me...can you wait a little longer, and I SNAPPED AT HIM..I'm not here for YOU BUDDY. I'M HERE FOR ME. and at that point I realized what was and what wasn't good for me...so I was wondering why Kerby didn't know she was in a bad spot? I was wondering how she could have gotten there in her mind? And all I could think of was she opened it up to that...opened it up to the complete control of someone else? And all I could think of calling that was "weak minded". Why in the world would you let someone else do your survival thinking for you..unless..you were either really sad or confused...so I take back weak minded...a better word would have been vulnerable. The reason I brought up the story was because I've seen it in MKP, I've seen some men take advantage of others. And It sickens me. I use MKP to basically cry, and to help other guys not have to feel pain in their lives. And so far to be honest..I have yet to find a group of men that are actually honest in their thinking. I question how much different your motivation for this site is any different than the leaders of MKP. I really do? To me, it's the same...just misguided people.

In other words..the ego boost those guys get from leading the group, is no different than the one you get by moderating, and I get by having the chance to share what it is that I think.

I don't endorse MKP. I don't send em money. I think we each need to be accountable for our own lives...and really I think..if we have a purpose in life..it's to make the world a better place. I think by and large...no matter how misguided MKP dudes are..their real intention is to make the world a better place...and yeah it may be misguided..but's that's what it is.

Talking truth among men..is not bad. Taking accountability...is not bad. Crying is not bad. Owning your anger. and stuff..is not bad. Seeing people as both good and bad is not a bad thing. It's a good thing..because if you learn it..you learn compassion...and YOU TELL ME..with a straight face that COmpassion is Bad? It's not...there are very few hugs in this world that are not good.

So..there are great things that MKP does...and there are some really sucky ones. I will tell you this...if Curious husband wanted to talk to someone who knew what feeling shitty felt like..I'd be there for him..As me..and I really believe..same as you..that knowing me..and what I believe is NOT bad. Same as you..same exact reason you have this site..because you want to help others.

I aint spinnin nothin. I'm telling you what I believe...I think alot.. And your condemning me, is the same as my condeming you..they both suck.

and now you really got me thinking...this forum..your's is wonderful...and really it's MKP light. we talk about things..we say what we feel with minimal fear of reprisal...seriously rr...imagine doing that in real life with all these people, just sitting around and talking the same way...wouldn't you feel good? I know I feel good when i can see who the hell is talking to me...they become real..so when I see them on the street..I get it.

That to me is MKP. The other shit is there for those that need it.

and...not for nothing...but I have more things to say to what you have said...there are so many groups that sometimes do things. like you said they sometimes do pseudo reality. really? what the hell is religion? lemme guess..that's real?? 98% of the people on this planet are living in psuedo reality....and to write that about pseudo reality..really is pseudo reality.

The act of saying pseudo reality is not used as a common coping mechanism is pseudo reality and a coping mechanism. Can't you see that?

I'm not spinning anything. Just think for your self .

the MKP leaders I know..don't tell me what if any religion to believe in..to me..as soon as they do....I need to take care of them.

it's the money that sucks bro. the money is awful. How do you profess brotherhood and then charge for it?

I was trying to make the point to one of the leaders once..he asked me a question and I asked him...."should I charge you for my answer"?

Fix MKP..it is a great start. They get you down to where you need to be. At the core..where we are talking about real shit...like this. Not the sideways stuff.

This is evolving into a very long thread and I fear some powerful and enlightened posts are getting lost in the shuffle. Here is a very long (three back-to-back)posts by a smart member here going by the moniker "SeekingTruth":

[forum.culteducation.com]

Take the time to click the above link and to read these three important posts from and about two different men experiencing the "joys" of Mankind Project's New Warrior Training mind-fuck Weekend.

These posts are like eating popcorn...you can't get enough. Great, very "entertaining" to read and more importantly, very engaging posts.

This is in a nutshell why your legal-recourse rights must be signed away by you prior to attending. If you knew this was what the "fun" weekend seminar in advance, you would never go...which is why MKP demands silence from participants.

OOPS! Guess these two guys broke the rules (thank god!). Spread their story (courtesy here of "SeekingTruth") to forewarn others from joining this abusive (mentally and sexually) group.

Thanks again to "SeekingTruth" and "The Anticult" who re-posted "SeekingTruth's" postings earlier in this thread.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2010 08:25AM by Sparky.

j845:

You say, ".how the hell could you let someone control your mind..."

But if you take the time to actually read the analysis of the MKP manual you can see how easily people can be manipulated.

You said, "hey get you down to where you need to be."

That's part of what LGATs do, they break you down.

"...what the hell is religion? lemme guess..that's real?? 98% of the people on this planet are living in pseudo reality."

But "religion" and tangential discussion about "people on this planet" is not the focus of this thread and therefore is off topic.

Please stay focused on the topic, which is MKP.

Frankly, just like other MKP trolls that have come here before you spinning, offer apologies and generally trying to undermine the thread.

@j845, I actually do have some questions:

- Do you see any issues with the way MKP completely separates itself and its activities from wives, girlfriends, partners and families?
- Have you ever spoken to wives, girlfriends, etc about this? What's their take?
- Does your i-group ever involve other people?
- Do you think that i-groups and NWTW could be 'successful' and be more transparent or inclusive?
- Has your i-group ever discussed any of these things?

I have a working theory, which is that at NWTW, guys are really broken down and made vulnerable. For better or for worse, if they don't normally talk to their wives, etc., they come home from the weekend and suddenly they're talking, crying, being very open. Compared to what they're used to, these women see a big change and they feel it's positive, and immediate. These are the women who say things like, "Oh, I don't know anything about it, but I just love what's happened since he started going."

On the other hand, if you normally have a very open and communicative relationship, and your husband comes home and suddenly has all these secrets and things he WON'T share, your immediate impression is obviously very negative, and stays that way as the secrecy continues with i-groups. (This is my situation.) Further, if you do your research, even if you do it with a critical eye, you find little-to-nothing substantially positive about MKP.

So how am I, as a woman who can't see anything for myself first hand, but can only do my research (and you see what's out here), with these secrets scattered throughout my day-to-day life... How can I even keep an open mind? How on earth could I be supportive about his involvement?

I really do want to know what you think, and if these issues have come up for you or other men you know before. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts...