curiousnycgirl:

"Personal experience"?

Frankly, that's a response typical of LGAT participants who claim the only way that someone can understand is to personally experience the LGAT.

However, research is fundamental to understanding what's wrong with LGATs. And it is not necessary to personally experience something to develop an understanding of it and an opinion based upon factual research and evidence.

There is money in MKP. It is not free and Bill Kauth appears to be doing just fine.

MKP may be a profitable as Landmark, but it's providing a stedly income to some.

Comparing MKP to Scuba diving and Bungee jumping is very telling. These activities can be high risk and potentially dangerous. But MKP doesn't sell itself like that. It isn't openly acknowledged as a high risk dangerous endeavor.

Instead MKP supporters more readily compare their LGAT to therapy, counseling and education/enlightenment.

Professionally licensed therapists, counselors and accredited schools don't have their clients and students sign waivers. Instead, they are fully liable for their conduct and accountable to licensing and accrediting bodies and boards.

Moreover, credible support groups don't expect anyone to sign a waiver.

Moderator -

I get your points, and apologize if I am not articulating myself well. I am not disagreeing that LGATs are fundamentally flawed, nor am I disagreeing the MKP can be very dangerous.

My point in asking for personal experience (which may have been inappropriate - if so I sincerely apologize) was to try to gain a better understanding of anticult's position. Making sweeping generalizations is just not going to credibly win any arguments. I am desperately trying to find a balanced view of this organization - concrete examples would help me build a case - generalizations typically diminish one's position (IMHO).

Nor was I necessarily comparing LGAT to those sporting activities I listed. I was trying to say that the indemnification clauses are pertty standard, and for the most part not enforceable - at least not in a US court of law. Truth is that anticults' posts actually indicated, at least to me, that MKP was more forthcoming in outlining the risky physical behavior than I had orignally thought.

I will try to sit on my hands and just read everyone's input rather than respond - clearly I'm just not representing my thoughts coherently. I certainly do not want to be perceived as someone who is defending this organization - yet I feel that is what I have been doing.

Best
CNYCG

Its very interesting how some who supposedly know very little of MKP, seem to have a commitment to spreading serious misinformation and de-facto soft-apologetics for MKP, or at least confusion.

To suggest, that the MKP executed and witnessed legal contracts are the same as generic recreational activity, is beyond absurd.
That is either a dangerously naive, or is something else.
(that is how MKP sells and verbally deceives those who are signing those contracts, without reading them, they just tell the guy its just the typical legal mumbo-jumbo, so don't read it, just sign it).

Where is a receational activity contract that details the psychological and financial trauma that will be suffered?

These LGAT seminars have a long history of SERIOUS PSYCHOLOGICAL DAMAGE, and serious financial exploitation. That is a fact. Read the MKP contract.

They also have a history of DEATH, as detailed at least 5x in the MKP contracts. They mention death repeatedly, so to sign that contract, is proof that people are risking their lives, and serious injury.

No one should ever sign the MKP contracts, its a terrible one-sided contract. Its about protecting MKP at your expense.
That is why the MKP legal contract is as it is, and MKP forces everyone to sign it.



The reason for googling things, is so those who read these threads in the future, can do their own research, and see the evidence for themselves, as links change.



MKP is directly making MILLIONS a year, that is a fact.
They are also making much much more than that indirectly, through various upselling processes and "coaching". That is also a fact.

It would require quite a bit of research to try and find where the MKP money is going, as most of it is concealed by MKP, as MKP does not post the audited details on their websites. (of course).

The Mankind Project is making millions a year, directly, not counting all of the money made indirectly.
Below is a long list of MKP sub-groups, many of them do not appear to file IRS 990 Forms, so no one can know where the money is going, as its controlled by those who run the group.
But the few that do file the 990 Form, they are making MILLIONS A YEAR. That is a fact.

On top of this, as shown, local MKP groups have dozens of other types of seminars, and coachings, and that is where tens of thousands of dollars can be extracted from each man.

Its another of the standard MKP deceptions, to try and conceal how much money they are making, and exactly where that money is going.


They have even begun other front-groups, like...
The ManKind Foundation MKF

where MKP is soliciting donations in Phone-a-Thons to contact all the MKP men in the US for money.




MANKIND PROJECT EIN: 760796492
City: EDDYVILLE, KY
Assets $1,068,465
Income $2,183,735

THE MANKIND PROJECT
City: EVANSTON, IL
Income $861,035

THE MANKIND PROJECT
City: SOMERVILLE, TN

THE MANKIND PROJECT
City: ROYAL OAK, MI

THE MANKIND PROJECT
City: SANTA BARBARA, CA

THE MANKIND PROJECT
City: WESTLAKE VLG, CA

THE MANKIND PROJECT
City: BETHESDA, MD

THE MANKIND PROJECT
City: PRAIRIE VLG, KS

THE MANKIND PROJECT
City: GRASS VALLEY, CA

THE MANKIND PROJECT
City: SAINT ALBANS, NY

THE MANKIND PROJECT
City: SHELBURNE FLS, MA

THE MANKIND PROJECT
City: MINNEAPOLIS, MN

THE MANKIND PROJECT
City: ENCINATAS, CA

THE MANKIND PROJECT
City: SIOUX CITY, IA

THE MANKIND PROJECT
City: EDDYVILLE, KY

THE MANKIND PROJECT
City: ASHVILLE, NC

THE MANKIND PROJECT
City: ST LOUIS, MO

THE MANKIND PROJECT
City: PEARL RIVER, LA

THE MANKIND PROJECT
City: ROCHESTER, NY

THE MANKIND PROJECT
City: SCOTCH PLAINS, NJ

THE MANKIND PROJECT
City: BAYFIELD, CO

THE MANKIND PROJECT
City: TUCSON, AZ

THE MANKIND PROJECT
City: PORTLAND, OR

THE MANKIND PROJECT
City: INDIANAPOLIS, IN


THE MANKIND PROJECT
City: DALLAS, TX

THE MANKIND PROJECT
City: COLLEGEVILLE, PA

THE MANKIND PROJECT
City: ENGLEWOOD, CO

THE MANKIND PROJECT
City: DECATUR, GA

THE MANKIND PROJECT
City: W ALLIS, WI

THE MANKIND PROJECT
City: PROSPECT, KY

THE MANKIND PROJECT
City: CHICAGO, IL

_________quote excerpt____________________

The Mankind Project, as a global leader in masculine initiation, ....

The mission of The ManKind Foundation is to support the mission of The ManKind Project and its thousands of members.

... MKF has been intentionally created with a separate board of directors and a separate non-profit tax-exempt status from The Mankind Project.

The distinctive focus of the Foundation is essential. MKP is an initiatory and training organization. ...

...
For more detailed information on how you can participate in the work of the Foundation, please contact:
Trip Moulton
Development Director
ManKind Foundation

What is the Chairman's Campaign and why a Phone-a-Thon?
... To create a more effective campaign this year the ManKind Foundation proposed a phone-a-thon. Most of the MKP Executive Committee, the ManKind Foundation Board of Directors, and a group of committed volunteers will be calling the weekend of November 19-21. Our goal is to contact all the MKP men in the US.
__________________________

Anticult -

Thank you for sharing your vast knowledge base. You are right I don't know nearly as much as you nor as much as I should. I will limit my comments to my personal experiences in the hope that perhaps they will help others.

Best,
CNYCG

The Mankind Foundation
Also Known As: MKF
Physical Address: Fishers, IN 46038 1744
_____________________


For a supposed "charity foundation"...
where is the IRS Form 990 for The ManKind Foundation, which shows where all the money is going?

Why have MKF-MKP refused to openly post that document on their website, so people can see where the money/millions have gone?
Why do they conceal it?



Those who "staff" the MKP LGAT seminars, also have to PAY to WORK, like other exploitative LGAT seminars.
QUOTE: [mankindproject.org] "The vast majority of those who staff a training pay money themselves for the privilege of staffing".

They learned that from Werner Erhard, and others, to CHARGE people to for the "privilege" to work at the seminar. Byron Katie also does that, and it makes a lot of money which goes into the leaders control.


What happened with the assets from the other past MKP front-groups?
Notice how MKP switched from private for-profit Corps, to "non-profit" as then they don't have to pay tax, and those who control the "non-profit" totally control the assets, and can give themselves juicy salaries, expenses, grants... Its standard operating procedure.


Note how MKP can BREAK-DOWN the male psyche in 48 hours. (descent, ordeal)
Note how MKP was started by "therapists". (its an abusive form of group therapy)

MKP cuts off access to the outside world, just like many other sects and cults.
MKP engages in sleep-deprivation, another common tactic.

MKP serves as a platform, where vulnerable men are upsold into many other "trainings".
That is basically the only difference with MKP, is that a large amount of the private profits are taken from men in MKP, by funneling them into numerous other private seminar programs and coaching.

They also have groups where women run business and apologetics for MKP.
Woman Within International (connected with MKP) [www.womanwithin.org]
"WOMAN WITHIN and the WOMAN WITHIN rose logo are registered trademarks of Tosi and Associates, Inc."

Note how one of the founders of MKP is Rich Tosi, it appears his wide "Char Tosi" is behind that group. [www.womanwithin.org]
Rich and Char Tosi, professional LGAT seminar salespeople. [tosi.biz]



-------quote excerpt--------------
ManKind Project (MKP),
previously known as the IRDX Corp (1991),
Inner Resource Development Corporation (1992),
and New Warrior Network, Inc (1998)

The MKP organization is composed of 38 centers in nine countries..

Origins
In 1984, three men formed a group called The New Warrior Training, which would later become the Mankind Project. These three men were Rich Tosi, a former Marine Corps officer; Bill Kauth, a therapist and member of the "mythopoetic" men's movement; and Ron Hering, also a therapist

New Warrior Training Adventure
Designed to compress a large amount of material into less than forty-eight hours, the New Warrior Training Adventure (NWTA) purports to be a "radical departure" from the modern male psyche, internally navigating through a "hero's journey". The leadership claims that those who undertake this journey pass through three phases characteristic to virtually all historic forms of male initiation: descent, ordeal and return.

The course usually takes place in a wooded area, over a 48-hour period, with a one-to-one ratio of staff to participants.[13] The weekend is intended as a "male initiation ritual". The participants' mobile phones and radios are taken away for the duration of the retreat.

When an interviewer asked "is sleep deprivation a big part of New Warrior weekend training?", the respondent invoked MKP's confidentiality agreement, but acknowledged that he usually sleeps more at home than during the training.

Participants are forbidden from disclosing any of the specifics pertaining to the training weekend to non-participants: all participants at an NWTA are required to sign a non-disclosure agreement.


Other trainings
MKP is affiliated with several similar trainings. Some of these trainings were developed or are staffed by key members of MKP. They are:

Vets Journey Home (formerly "Bamboo Bridge"), for combat zone veterans[11]
Boys to Men, for adolescent boys[11]
Woman Within International "actively partners" with MKP[11]
Inside Circle, for convicts in maximum security prisons[17]
Inner King, for "initiating men into sovereign, kingly energy"[2]
Warrior Monk, for "men and women who are in a transition phase of life"[2]
-----------------------



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2010 01:15AM by The Anticult.

Why does MKP have so many "death clauses" in their legal contracts they force everyone to sign? Because people die and get seriously hurt from those mind-crushing high-pressure LGAT techniques applied in the MKP 48 hrs, that have been taken from many other damaging LGAT seminars.


Below is a post from this forum, from a father who's son committed suicide after attending MKP.

[forum.culteducation.com]
August 22, 2005 09:20PM
concerned dad
Date Added: 08/22/2005
"My son came back very disturbed after the Mankind Project New Warrior weekend. He committed suicide two weeks later. I am interested in finding out other people's experiences with this group. Thank you."





There are many threads and posts in these forums about ManKind Project going back years. [forum.culteducation.com]

husband in mankind project...cult? [forum.culteducation.com]

mankind project LGAT [forum.culteducation.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2010 01:55AM by The Anticult.

As predicted, the roots of ManKind Project are connected with Werner Erhard, EST, and Landmark Education, coming directly from Justin Sterling [www.culteducation.com] from which come a constant stream of serious complaint reports. [forum.culteducation.com]

---------------------------
Rich Tosi, Bill Kauth and Ron Hering
[forum.culteducation.com]
"Sterling was an early disciple of Werner Erhard and the “est” (Erhard Seminar Training, and Latin for “it is”) experience, and the early “human potential movement.” Men, Sex and Power was a direct outgrowth of the training Sterling received during his years with “est.” This experience proved to be another precursor to the New Warrior training."

"Kauth, Tosi, and Hering attended a workshop called Men, Sex, and Power in California offered by Justin Sterling. These weekends are currently called Sterling Seminars. The techniques learned there are a major part of the NWTA. Sterling was an early disciple of Werner Erhard who founded what was then known as Erhard Seminars Training (EST). Today, EST has transformed itself into the Landmark Forum. Men, Sex, and Power (Sterling Seminars) was the outgrowth of Sterling’s training with EST"

On further reflection, there is something extremely disturbing about The ManKind Project, the more one looks into it.

In the MKP New Warrior Training Adventure waiver, they mention "death" 5 times.
death, death, death, death, death. 5x. (see below)
Why?

The reality is that many men who attend these events, could have past trauma they have not had treated by a licensed professional, or issues around childhood sexual abuse, or other traumas.
Any licensed professional who helps people deal with trauma PTSD knows that suicide is a VERY high risk, so they have to set up 24/7 emergency plans, often for extended periods of time.

The fact is that these LGAT seminars like MKP, get people to "flood" their traumas in Group Therapy bootcamps, and then just cut them lose.
The seminars are run by arrogant "leaders", with no proper training and no licensing, who are usually extremely ideological, and push people to flood their traumas.
That is the worst thing a person can do, and can lead to rapid suicides.

MKP is far more ideological even than Landmark, which is more about the bottom line and making money.

Landmark suicide rate fabrications? [forum.culteducation.com]
Byron Katie (the Work) and PTSD suicide attempt rates [forum.culteducation.com]


So this is why the MKP release form is laced top to bottom with death.
Pushing so many men to flood their traumas, can and will lead to deaths, in the hours, days and weeks following the MKP seminars.
The suicide completion rates for men suffering from trauma and PTSD are very high. It could be that the MKP LGAT has one of the highest suicide rates of any LGAT.

The MKP leaders clearly know about all of the deaths, from what has gone on in the MKP seminars, and that is why they repeat the "death clause" 5x in their seminar release forms.


MKP death clauses:
________________quote_____________
ManKind Project
Participant Agreements:
Assumption of Risk, Indemnification & Release
New Warrior Training Adventure

- Activities can cause loss or damage to personal property, accidental injury, illness, or, in extreme cases, permanent trauma, disability, or DEATH.

- I understand that this list is not complete and that other unknown or unanticipated risks may result in property loss, serious injury, illness, or DEATH.

- I accept and assume full responsibility for all of the risks and hazards associated with participation in the NWTA, whether known or unknown, including, but not limited to, 1) injury, DEATH, or loss of personal property and related expenses which I may suffer as a direct or indirect result of those inherent risks and dangers described in this Agreement as well as those not specifically described;

- In consideration of being able to participate in the NWTA, I, for myself and my Heirs, release and discharge MKP from all claims or causes of action, present or future, arising from physical, emotional, or psychological injury, DEATH

- understand that by signing this Agreement, I surrender all rights to make a claim or file a lawsuit against MKP for personal injury, property damage, wrongful DEATH,

_______unquote___________________






---------------------------------

[www.ncptsd.va.gov]
National Center for Posttraumatic Stress Disorder
The Relationship Between PTSD and Suicide

Does PTSD increase an individual's suicide risk?
A large body of research indicates that there is a correlation between PTSD and suicide. There is evidence that traumatic events such as sexual abuse, combat trauma, rape, and domestic violence generally increase a person's suicide risk.


[ptsd.about.com]
Trauma, PTSD, and Suicide
In a survey of 5,877 people across the United States, it was found that people who had experienced physical or sexual assault at some point in their life also had a high likelihood of attempting to take their own life at some point:

Nearly 22% of people who had been raped had also attempted suicide at some point in their life.

Approximately 23% of people who had experienced a physical assault had also attempted suicide at some point in their life.

These rates of suicide attempts increased considerably among people who had experienced multiple incidents of sexual (42.9%) or physical assault (73.5%).

They also found that a history of sexual molestation, physical abuse as a child, and neglect as a child were associated with high rates of suicide attempts (17.4% to 23.9%)

People with a diagnosis of PTSD are also at greater risk to attempt suicide. Among people who have had a diagnosis of PTSD at some point in their lifetime, approximately 27% have also attempted suicide.
---------------------------------

@Anticult, I totally understand that you're passionate about your cause.

I'd like to, as gently as possible, suggest that your tone is alienating even to people who agree with you. I think it's curious that I've found myself and @curiousnycgirl distancing ourselves from you, when honestly we have as much (more?) reason to dislike MKP as anyone. Honestly, you even sound a tiny bit paranoid. For people like me, who are really seeking empathy, support, and A Way Out, you are as belittling, strident, and extreme-sounding as MKP. I personally find it extremely upsetting that people who are actually suffering because of MKP cannot come here for support and empathy without being backhandedly accused of being totally naive or worse a troll for MKP itself.

WRT your sentiment that, "To suggest, that the MKP executed and witnessed legal contracts are the same as generic recreational activity, is beyond absurd," is wrong. I found this identical language (I understand that this list is not complete and that other unknown or unanticipated risks may result in property loss, serious injury, illness, or death") at:
- a recreation center (http://www.skagwayrecreation.org/)
- a college campus rec center (http://www2.binghamton.edu/campus-recreation/)
- a rock climbing gym (http://www.warehouserockgym.com/Our_Existence.html)
- a skate park (http://circusskatepark.com/)
- a B&B (http://www.chesuncooklakehouse.com/)
(This is just from the first page of Google results)

I don't mean to insult at all -- I think you and I are on the same side. But you may want to reconsider your approach or risk alienating and insulting the very people that MKP is also alienating and insulting. We need your help!


@rrmoderator, I very much appreciate your sympathetic and reasonable suggestions. I think that MKP partners need more of that, and personally I really, really need it.