Quote
experiencedopinion

Have you ever been through a sweat lodge ceremony, Sparky?

As far as legal waivers, that is standard legal procedure. There is nothing nefarious about it. It is simply standard protection from those who sue for profit motive.

First, no...I have never attended an American-Indian 'sweat lodge' ceremony. As that I am not of Native American blood, any Native American rituals or ceremonies are not culturally or spiritually designed for me. I would hold that my attendance at a 'sweat lodge' would be culturally offensive to native americans and therefore wrong for me to attend. Perhaps I could get the same experience in attending a Finnish sauna without offending anyone (except I am not Finnish. Does that matter to Finns?).

Second, I have been to multiple weekend sales retreats, I have also attended an all-day long business building seminar and (in the past) church leadership weekend events and NEVER have I had to sign a waiver attesting to my mental health and/or signing off on legal action for any damages for the experience.

Odd. Why not? No one I know sued even though I felt I did not get my monies worth at the business seminar. It still annoys me.

I guess MKP is savvy enough to make attendees sign away their legal rights and only MKP finds that "lots of people who like to sue for profit (who are they, btw?)" attend MKP so the non-profit org needs lots and lots of legal protection.

I understand that you are "happy with your MKP experience", but that is not a universal opinion as my lengthy read of this thread reveals (all 100 pages).

If I am wrong or misled, please correct me.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2010 10:14AM by Sparky.

Well, Sparky,

As predicted you have provided a Snarky response.

Why you choose to discount that which you do not know is beyond me.

In example, I asked, "Have you ever been through a sweat lodge ceremony, Sparky?"

"imitation" is your way of devaluing something you know nothing about as far as life experience goes. I was attempting to find out if you had the experience and thus had an informed opinion or not.

While your qualifier "imitation" appears to be about all sweat lodges or just MKP's, it cannot be because you have no knowledge of them. Thus, it is a reflection of you and whatever illusions about sweat lodges you imagine from a non-experiential position.

On to the next item; comparing is always a lose-lose game since apples will never measure up to oranges. The NWTA has a bit more risk than business building seminars. I think if you attempt to inquire about higher risk outdoor experiences and compare them the NWTA, you'll at least be comparing citrus to citrus.

Again, no one signs away their legal rights, that's not possible under the law. What is agreed to is to not hold MKP responsible for accidents not caused by MKP. Perhaps you may consult with a contract lawyer or one specializing in liability insurance for a more detailed understanding.

One of my friends in MKP is lawyer. I expect he know a bit more about these waivers than you or I. He did the training and continues to be involved.

To couch your argument in terms that MKP is the only organization to have such liability insurance waivers is false on the face of it. Again, your experience seems to far from that of an NWTA or similar event, thus, comparison falls a bit flat.

"I understand that you are "happy with your MKP experience", but that is not a universal opinion if my lengthy read of this thread attests to."

Well, yeah, this is not a "happy" thread. I imagine you'll find people angry about their Ivy League University or their religion, or their freckles, etc. If your measuring stick for anything being acceptable is having a "universal opinion" by thousands of members of a group, then you're in for a long wait. "universal opinion" sounds kinda cultish. I guess that opinions vary about MKP could be read that it isn't a singular way of thinking that results in one "happy" "universal opinion".

Of course this thread has little of people who actually went through the NWTA which speaks poorly of it's content and it's relevance. It's mostly people who react to out of context literature from MKP. Some of us have read the book rather than pages torn from someone else's email or the internet.

Not all men respond the same to the same event. Is that a surprise?

Men in or outside of MKP make mistakes. Who knew?

It would be interesting to count how many people (posts) on this list went through the NWTA and which have not to get a better picture of experienced opinion versus inexperienced. Not that that matters to anyone preferring to vent as opposed to comprehend. For those who wish to comprehend, I'm happy to offer my experience for what it's worth. For those who want to vent, well, venting is good. Better out than it I always say. Just remember where it's coming out of and own that puppy. Or project all your hallucinations of who we/MKP are. But, could you make it a bit funnier? The discounting qualifiers and "universal opinion" crap is both predictable and boring.

I would recommend that men who have criticism about the NWTA contact us through the national site so we can address breaches of ethics or safety. One of the primary reasons I'm in MKP is because it is actively improving. We learn from our mistakes. We evolve to serve men better. Not every man will find MKP to be their cup of tea. No problem there. If one is afraid that we are some cultish boogie man, then stay away. Those who want to face their fear and move into a more empowered and loving place within themselves, other men and the world, then you've come to the right place.

'til next time,

experienced opinion

experiencedopinion:

"We learn from our mistakes. We evolve to serve men better."?

Really?

Your defense of the organization on this thread speaks otherwise.

You repeatedly attempt to shift the blame for bad results and complaints to others, not MKP.

You admit that MKP has sought to avoid responsibility by limiting its liability through a release form, which is not typical for all retreats.

But it does reflect that MKP has been sued, e.g. for wrongful death.

"Sweat lodges"?

Whatever MKP has chosen to market as so-called "sweat lodges," they are not authentic Native-American sweat lodges, but rather a usurpation of that tradition, which has been denounced by Native Americans.

See [www.culteducation.com]

That is precisely the reason the tribal council passed the resolution condemning exploitation of traditional sacred ceremonies.

"I think across the country Native Americans are very appalled by what they read," Stensgar said. "Everything we read, we felt like the Coeur d'Alene Tribe should speak out and say something about it to the public. I thought the council should speak out through a resolution which we would send to the Northwest Affiliated Tribes and maybe they would forward it on to the National Congress. … condemning these types of activities by non-Natives or even Natives who would commercialize and try to exploit sacred ceremonies of tribes."

Whever LGATs like MKP are criticized apologists frequently say, only those that have "experienced" the LGAT essentially are qualified to critique it.

But common sense should be employed.

You don't have to smoke or drive after drinking to know its a bad idea.

LGATs have an increasingly negative and harmful history. And MKP is no exception.

experiencedopinion:

You apparently need to pay more attention to the board before posting.

The above comments are from "rrmoderator" not "sparky."

Your most recent long, rambling, repetitive and insulting response was directed to sparky, which was the wrong person.

The post was not approved and has been deleted.

Frankly, it was grossly redundant and little more than name calling, which is a violation of the message board rules.

You are very close to being banned.

Last warning.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2010 02:06AM by rrmoderator.

To whom it may concern:

"floatingfreebear" has been banned from this message board.

Here is an interesting link with multiple references on MKP NWTA:

[wthrockmorton.com]

The most interesting is the author's insistence that it is easy to see how memories could be implanted using such techniques. The author is also concerned that psychological techniques utilized are being done so under no professional supervision.

The article is long but rich in a scientific view. It also links to Rick Ross' site.

It makes one wonder why state and federal oversight isn't being sought over what clearly appears to be nothing more than practicing psychology/therapy without professional oversight.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2010 09:23AM by Sparky.

Also in regard to the above post, the author goes so far as to say since MKP's NWTA utilizes pagan and wiccan rituals and mythology mixed with native-american rituals, he warns all his evangelical patients to avoid Mankind Project at all costs to limit any potential psychological(belief system) stress (I am paraphrasing).

Here is a video embedded in the above link from Dr. Throckmorton that is worth seeing for those who don't want to explore the above link:

[www.youtube.com]

"Rage Therapy" (beating pillows and cursing your mother...how much different from beating dead cooked chickens and cursing your mother?)

Quote
rrmoderator
To whom it may concern:

"floatingfreebear" has been banned from this message board.

Can you explain the reason for this decision? Thanks.

He broke the rules.

Read the rules.

Note the thread exchanges.