Seeking Truth, WTG1999 is, as you clearly stated, little more than an apologist for MKP. He "feels sad" for you, thus demeaning your horrid experience and putting the blame on you because "you clearly were not ready". Bullshit, he is clearly using the old canard of the failed faith healer:"If you didn't get healed it was your weakness and lack of faith in god that prevented the most powerful entity in the universe from removing a plantar's wart, freckle, etc." (insert minor problem here to show the weakness in their argument)

I have read so many similar experiences to yours on this site. They all end the same: bizarre repressed homosexual play-acting with the fear of gang-rape (the "bumping" at the "naked graduation dances")

If WTG1999 (which may be his "Injun name"[apologies to our native american readers since this offensive group has usurped native american 'lore'] and the year he was gang-raped initiated into MKP) were honest, he would answer you with concern and explain how he had a totally different experience. I would also like to see if WTG1999 is a "volunteer" (read:'elder') at MKP.

My guess he is and is trying to dampen any effect this forum is having on recruiting naive, self-conscience young men who may have found this site and be successfully escaping their evil greedy clutches.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2009 09:34AM by Sparky.

...you are a sad person, Sparky. What is your hidden agenda? I am not an elder and It wouldn't matter what I or any one else is. You don't get it and the flow of life passes on by people like you who hold up thier hatred and non-knowledge assumptions as some sort of testament to their incapabilities to allow other points of view. There is no need to recruit or save anyone. People arrive when they are ready. Again, I am very sorry that someone had a bad experiance, but my experiance was excellent. - Have you any 1st hand experiance with Warrior training? (cutely pathetic=gangraped BS "bumping" as I said before,Get Real!-Sorry, Nothing Near or any way resembling that or any other bad behavior would be permitted!)
I just really wonder what the REAL Truth was/is? ...if someone was abused at an event or a misunderstanding occured , It would be the exception to a wonderful, joyful, experiance. I would truely feel sorry for that exception, but muster up not much else than pity for Whatever it was in Sparky's life that left you such a bitter person - HighestGood to you....

WTG1999 - if you wish to make a point then 1/ please do not use cult-speak the meaning of which only you understand, 2/ check your grammar and spelling before posting (Word can do that), and 3/ be objective. As it is your subjective and emotive diatribe is a waste of space.

Actually your contributions do achieve one good thing (only one) - with each new post the thread about MKP keeps rising to the top of the list - we call it 'bumpity bump.'



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2009 07:02PM by SeekingTruth.

Quote
WTG1999
...you are a sad person, Sparky. What is your hidden agenda? I am not an elder and It wouldn't matter what I or any one else is. You don't get it and the flow of life passes on by people like you who hold up thier hatred and non-knowledge assumptions as some sort of testament to their incapabilities to allow other points of view. There is no need to recruit or save anyone. People arrive when they are ready. Again, I am very sorry that someone had a bad experiance, but my experiance was excellent. - Have you any 1st hand experiance with Warrior training? (cutely pathetic=gangraped BS "bumping" as I said before,Get Real!-Sorry, Nothing Near or any way resembling that or any other bad behavior would be permitted!)
I just really wonder what the REAL Truth was/is? ...if someone was abused at an event or a misunderstanding occured , It would be the exception to a wonderful, joyful, experiance. I would truely feel sorry for that exception, but muster up not much else than pity for Whatever it was in Sparky's life that left you such a bitter person - HighestGood to you....

WTG1999
It is you that is sad. You are a member of a dangerous organization. You don't even have an original opinion. Your every thought is controlled by your i-group. 90% of the men who attend an NWTA have no further contact with MKP. Why is that? One would think that such a great group would get much more support from it's members. The truth is most men are able to walk away knowing they have been taken by a scam. Some feeble minded men remain to throw their money away and continue in other MKP projects. I did attend an NWTA, and can argue that many of the things I read here did occur at the weekend retreat I was at. Questionable therapy performed by non-professionals, needless nudity, sleep deprivation, I could go on and on. Cock Talk, carpet work, and sweat lodges, those 3 activities alone lead by spiritually bankrupt and sexually deviant men, should be enough to prove your arguement has no integrity.

WTG1999, I have no "hidden agenda". My "agenda" is straight forward: Warn new people from joining destructive LGATS like MKP and other cult-like/abusive organizations and to support as best I can those who have victimized by such groups.

If anyone has a "hidden agenda" I would offer it is you. You saw none of this stuff that SeekingTruth and others have shared. You've heard nothing. You've read nothing in the rules (such as no sex with initiates for at least 6 months).

You are an asset to your LGAT masters. "Have you any 1st hand experiance<sic> with Warrior training?"

If I follow you correctly you mean that if I never experienced Warrior training then I can not comment. I don't need to subject myself to mental distress to know that is what LGATs do. I also don't need to put my hand on a hot stove to know I will get burned.

MKP is a hot stove. It will sear your mind and burn your wallet. Avoid MKP at all costs.

I'm curious about the rule of "no sex with initiates for at least 6 months." The corollary being that sex is OK between the members of the leadership team and older initiates at any time.

But I've met similar rules with other straight LGATs including tantra groups, that is with mixed gender LGATs, so such a rule is not unusual.

But I'm curious as to why there should be the need for such an explicit rule for a men's LGAT in the first place; especially since my understanding of gay lifestyles is that promiscuity is fairly rife (including unprotected penetrative sex).

Could it be that the senior leadership team and weekend helpers see involvement with MKP as a way of obtaining sexual favours from new initiates who would be invariably trusting, vulnerable, and (after a NWT weekend) unquestioning young men?

OK, let me be more specific, involvement with MKP is a pathway for senior members to get to fcuk those younger men (or maybe to get fcuked by them). And bearing in mind that most of the men (both initiated and yet to be initiated) would have been straight before involvement with MKP then one of the objectives of the New Warrior Training must be for turning straight guys homosexuals. After all if all women (wives, lovers, etc.) are bitches who have stolen your balls then what other gender is going to satisfy your sexual urges; aha, your newly found brothers!!

So it appears that there has to be a reason for such a limiting rule; and that is that homosexual sex has taken place in the past, and is likely to take place in the future, between senior members and new initiates.

So with a hierachy obviously needing a rule to discourage sexual contact with young initiates it makes me wonder what the 'men for boys' or 'boys for men' programme is really all about. It sounds to me as though the MKP hierarchy are really just a bunch of sex-starved pedophiles. And that is yet another reason to avoid MKP by the plague.

And in mentioning a plague I wonder if condoms are given out and used during the naked sessions on the NWT weekend(s) and at i-group meetings?

Good Evening all,

This is an interesting twist of a conversation. I shall strive to offer some clarification.

The MKP organization put in place an "Ethics Policy". Here is the URL to it and it is available for public review:

[mankindproject.org]

Basically, it's intention and commitment is to NOT exploit another, financially, business-wise, therapy-wise. The organization has set a boundary of "non-approach", if you will, of 6 months. The exact quote is:

"For that reason, within 6 months of a person’s initiation, I will not begin a new financial, business, therapeutic or sexual relationship with them that a reasonable person would consider to be exploitative." This is what every person commits to.
Please note that the areas are:
1. Finance
2. Business
3. Therapy
4. Sex

In this conversation, your musings are on the topic of sex. So, let's address some questions.

1. Why put in this Ethics Policy? The organization learned that some transgressions occurred that it decided were
inappropriate and unwanted.
2. The organization is not a Gay or Straight or Sex-oriented organization. It is a Men's organization.
Men, regardless of orientation, are sexual creatures. As such, it became appropriate to establish
guidelines, policies and consequences, if the policies were broken. Such transgressions also occur in
mixed sex organizations/businesses and ethics policies are also established there.
So, this is not uncommom.
3. Most importantly, the organization realized that many men, coming to its retreats & workshops, etc, did come from
a very vulnerable position and the organization learned it must set policies to protect people and situations.

Now, Seeking Truth, you wrote: "The corollary being that sex is OK between the members of the leadership team and older initiates at any time."
1. I am unsure what you mean by "leadership team" and "older initiates".
2. The organization is not about sex. However, if members choose to engage in physical or romantic relationships OUTSIDE
of the context of the organizational businesses AND not violating the organization Ethics, then that is between the
men invovled. This would also be true if the organization were a mixed sex organization.
3. The statement "... sex is OK between the members of the leadership team and older initiates at any time."
Is not true. This is an false statement.

You wrote: "But I'm curious as to why there should be the need for such an explicit rule for a men's LGAT in the first place; especially since my understanding of gay lifestyles is that promiscuity is fairly rife (including unprotected penetrative sex)."
1. I think I've addressed why it became necessary.
2. Unprotected penetrative sex occurs in both the same-sex & opposite-sex cultures.

You wrote: "Could it be that the senior leadership team and weekend helpers see involvement with MKP as a way of obtaining sexual favours from new initiates who would be invariably trusting, vulnerable, and (after a NWT weekend) unquestioning young men?"

1. I don't know what you mean by "senior leadership team".
2. No, a team of people or a group of people were NOT looking at others as and I will paraphrase "prey".
3. No, invovlement in MKP does not "turn a straight into a gay".

You wrote: "So it appears that there has to be a reason for such a limiting rule; and that is that homosexual sex has taken place in the past, and is likely to take place in the future, between senior members and new initiates."

What has taken place is inappropriate behaviors and a policy put in place to handle them. Where and with whom have the acts taken place? In the past, there were instances of
1. weekend registrants found "physically engaged".
2. Men approached by others, at various levels of the organization, from both sides. That is, from newer member to
older member and vice-versa.

You wrote: "So with a hierachy obviously needing a rule to discourage sexual contact with young initiates it makes me wonder what the 'men for boys' or 'boys for men' programme is really all about. It sounds to me as though the MKP hierarchy are really just a bunch of sex-starved pedophiles. And that is yet another reason to avoid MKP by the plague."
1. This is not "a rule to discourage sexual contact with young initiates."
2. This is a policy decision, from many years ago, to address possible situations of transgressions and establish
a process to handle them and to give guidance to the individual chapters on how they should inform their members
about the organizational commitment of "non-exploitation".
3. Boys To Men is about mentoring. It is not about sex.
====================================================================
Now, I'm sure I've made many statements that some many not like. However, the intention here was to clarify.

Yes, I understand that most of you despise the MKP organization. Certainly, all are entitled to opinions and criticizms.

However, I invite you to consider that in criticizing, it is best to share/report from a position of accuracy as opposed to one of creative imagery.

No, MKP weekend retreats are NOT about sex. They are NOT about homoerotic experiences.

Thank you and have a good evening.

Thank you for your accurate response. It helps to have detailed information from the source.

This level of integrity demonstrated in the ethics policy is why I am involved with MKP. I am not a joiner of groups. I've always been cautious of the divisive nature many institutions have.

Hi ethics and actions that shows me these ethics are practiced is why I'm in MKP.

The fact that MKP is self reflective and always looking for how it can improve shows me that it not only has the capacity to evolve it is evolving.

That and inclusion rather than the historic exclusion is why I am fully behind MKP.

MKP is a bright light in my life and a firm foundation of healthy social activity. It's not because it fits some mental construct of perfection. All other things outside a mental constructs never match the construct. Men fuck up both in and outside of MKP. The difference is that MKP has ways to face, own and change the behavior that doesn't work and replace it with behavior that does. Isn't that a desirable change most people would want?

I do believe that the response to institutions makes sense because institutions are by their very nature competitive when running on the old fashioned model of maintaining and increasing power and influence. Thus, we have a global human condition of institutions competing rather than collaborating and integrating.

I see the responses to MKP here as some of the institutional backlash that is to be expected and is part of the shift towards inclusion. It's sad that so much assumption and out of context information and opinion are so rampant here. I've certainly done my fair share of that very behavior over the years. MKP is making every effort to be inclusive, just the opposite of cults and traditionally competitive and exclusive institutions. Competitive methods are what David Logan calls tribal level 3. I experience mostly tribal level 4 and 5 in MKP (from Tribal Leadership, by David Logan, John King and Halee Fischer-Wright). These are levels where working for the greater good rather than for ones own ego or material accumulation move to the forefront of ones mind and career activity. We certainly have many hurdles to cross on our way to greater inclusion in MKP and humanity as a whole.

I believe that we are in an evolutionary phase moving towards Global Integration. A phase where we rightfully question the old power dynamics that entrench us in the delusion of us and them and keep us from recognizing the empirical fact that we are embedded in an ecological and cosmological fabric. Separation and disconnectedness are but false mental constructs easily disproven by the scientific method.

It is in the old institutional modality of competition and maintaining and increasing institutional power at the exclusion of the whole (humanity, natural processes that make this planet habitable) that needs to change into an inclusive model or what I call recognizing our preexisting inclusivity within nature and humanity. It's what David Korten calls The Great Turning. He says that this time in history will either be remembered as The Great Turning or The Great Unraveling. We either evolve into a world view that includes everyone and the natural processes of life on this planet or devolve back into feudal states that justify violence towards "them" so we have resources for "us". As for me, that old fashioned way is wearing a bit thin.

There it is folks, an insider's response.

experiencedopinion, have you actually taken the time to read the comments on this thread from the victims of your LGAT? It reads like a cheap, creepy movie on SyFy channel.

There are people who commit suicide, psuedo-religious rituals stolen borrowed from Native American culture not to mention clear-cut cases of misogyny and inappropriate physical contact and isolation.

There are waivers signed to prevent legal suit being brought after the mental damage is inflicted.

Wow! Sounds great! Where do I sign up?

Sparky, I have read some of the posts.

I have actually experienced the NWTA and many MKP events also.

I find it mostly people lashing out and attacking any view that is different from theirs.

I don't have any interest in that. What I bring is an experienced opinion. I offer it as one from someone who has experienced the NWTA and staffed some as well attended other trainings and MKP events. I do not offer it to counter or invalidate anyone's experience of MKP. My opinion of another person's experience is irrelevant.

What I have experienced is a gang mentality on this list where false statements about MKP are made and men who are familiar with MKP are discounted and treated poorly.

It doesn't seem accurate information from those who have positive experiences with MKP are welcome. However, I will wade into the discussion and see if lashing out is the best I'll see on this list. I prefer adult discussions with relevant information and informed opinion. I expect noise, so, surprise me.

First off, "people who commit suicide". It sucks that people commit suicide. I know of one person but not "people". I know about the Michael Scinto case. It's awful that he chose to take his life. I truly wish he were alive today. Those who are familiar with the cause of most suicides understand that it is either from childhood emotional trauma or mental illness. The evidence that he had a history of alcohol and drug abuse problems speaks to pre-MKP causes. His blood alcohol level was .24 and I read that there was cocaine in the room and perhaps in his blood as well. It's hard to imagine anyone making good choices under such influence.

"psuedo-religious rituals stolen borrowed from Native American culture" MKP asked and received permission to use the more general version of Native American sweat lodge ceremony that we use from a native medicine man. We follow the approved version to the letter in honor of that agreement. I've been in both native run sweats and anglo run. I find MKP's to be an excellent introduction to the sweat lodge. I've experienced very connected lodges that compare with some of the more powerful native run lodges. One man in our lodge society has been in training for the lodge for twenty years with the Lakota. I have two native friends who have done the NWTA, love both the lodge and the weekend as a whole.

Have you ever been through a sweat lodge ceremony, Sparky?

"misogyny" Well, we are all influenced by Judeo-Christian ethics which is the bedrock of misogyny in this culture. It too sucks. As far as an organization, we do not condone misogyny. We actually honor the earth as our mother.

"inappropriate physical contact" there was a history of butt slapping years ago in MKP. Yeah, like the locker room after football games, men once slapped another guy on the ass. It is not the case today. We are increasingly sensitive towards touching another man, especially initiates. Now we ask before touching. Again, we do not condone inappropriate touch. A big part about what we do is teach and model healthy boundaries. Any man may pass on any part of the weekend. I have personally stood by initiates who chose to pass. I made sure to support them and their choice. The staff men also supported them. The great thing about MKP is that we honor each man regardless of his choice.

"isolation" We do not in anyway isolate men. It is our policy and my experience that one or more staff men are with initiates at all times. We do not send men alone at any time.

As far as legal waivers, that is standard legal procedure. There is nothing nefarious about it. It is simply standard protection from those who sue for profit motive.

MKP is an amazing organization that helps thousands of men live more fuller and healthier lives as they define them. We are as imperfect as the society we grew up in and were molded by. If reflections of our society show up in men in MKP, can anyone really be surprised? It is the behaviors that harm others that we are changing and man have I seem some amazing changes in myself and other men in MKP.

That's all for now.

Take care,
Experienced Opinion