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rrmoderator
rorybowman:

You don't wish to "see" anything, much like other active LGAT participants that come to this board, that are not really here discuss anything, but rather to defend their group, attack and/or dismiss any ciriticism.

The private messaging system was repeatedly abused by such people.

Previously, members could use it immediately, but after spamming with flaming messages, etc. that policy was changed.

See related interesting commentary, as well as certain former members of MKP trying to manipulate supposedly "neutral" encyclopedia articles on Wikipedia, [b:47d4277f8d]including[/b:47d4277f8d] some discussion of events from this very thread, at:

[en.wikipedia.org]

[en.wikipedia.org]

Another example of why Wikipedia is not always a reliable resource.

Note the disclaimers Wikipedia posts.

See [en.wikipedia.org]

Disclaimer says,

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Wikipedia cannot guarantee the validity of the information found here.

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Garya wrote
The organizational environment is set up to foster an open discussion of the training model, its risks and benefits.

If this was true then the documents of MKP would not be “secret”. They would be open to the public, and if I wanted to see them they would be available through a bookstore, through the library, or MKP would mail them to me or have their guidelines and manuals up on their websites, etc.

MKP members and leaders would come to this site and openly discuss all training techniques, not “threaten” to sue etc. because manuals have been posted, MKP would immediately change what is problematic towards men and their families. MKP would work towards lowering the risks and increasing the benefits, ie: changing their techniques and being more open and honest about their techniques when recruiting.

MKP would not then require, enforce and encourage secrets between spouses, family, friends and loved ones. MKP would not “berate” the men who choose to share this information with spouses, family, friends and loved ones by calling them “out of integrity, honesty etc”. MKP would encourage this sharing.

What I see happening is that many people have been hurt very intensely (me included) by MKP, and MKP members and leaders coming to this site and making excuses while blaming those of us hurt. I never see MKP taking responsibility for their actions, I see MKP making statements like “they were not ready”, “the man who joined MKP made bad choices”, “they must have had a bad marriage pre MKP” etc., etc. Always excuses as to why the “problem” is the “problem” of the spouse or the man who went to MKP, never an acceptance that the problems occur because of the techniques that MKP uses.

So, that makes the men coming to this site and claiming the virtues of MKP while blaming the victims apologists.

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Garya wrote
The general focus of the work we do is on what the individual man judges is best for himself, not what I judge is best for him.

Just for starters if this were true then MKP would be open and honest during recruiting in regards to the NWTA and I-Groups etc. But MKP is “secretive” and will not explain the truth of the group. IE: It is ok to lie to you if you don’t have the right to know the truth. And non MKP members don’t have the right to know the truth, spouses and women do not have the right to know the truth. If MKP felt different in regards to this their would be no requirement of “keeping the weekend confidential”, only the requirement of “keeping what others have said during the weekend confidential”.

As I said, this was just for starters in regards to your above statement. I could write a book on why and how MKP makes choices for men and their spouses instead of giving them full information to make an informed decision.

Right from the beginning MKP made the choice that this is what my family needed, instead of allowing me and my husband to make that choice for our family by giving full disclosure. MKP made the choice for my husband, and therefore made the choice for me.

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Garya wrote
Philosphically and practically men who come to the NWTA in therapy are encouraged to continue with their therapists.

My husband was told, and then believed, that the therapist group that I was working with just did not want the “competition” of MKP and so therefore he would not go. He was not encouraged to go to counseling or to continue with me. Actually by being told that the therapy group just “did not like the competition”, he was basically told that they were not the right “choice” for him to make. Again, a “decision” was made for him and me as to what he “should/should not do, by an underhanded statement that was negative about the therapy group.

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Garya wrote
All men are encouraged after completing the NWTA to make no major changes in their lives for at least the coming 6 months. Organizationally, we recognize that an immediate effect of the training can be the idealization of the men who staffed the training weekend and its leaders. Therefore, we have an ethics policy in place to prohibit any leader or staffer to enter into a personal or business relationship with any man who has completed the training that might be seen as exploitive and what I have seen is that the bias is against entering into any kind of relationship with the man, even if it might not seem to be exploitative.

My husband tried to “enforce” many changes in our lives within the first weeks of returning from NWTA because this is what MKP required. One of them was that even though we had always been a couple that shared with each other, he was then not allowed to share a very important part of his life with me, and if I was not accepting of that, then I was not the right woman for him.

One of them was the fact that even though we are a family that lives paycheck to paycheck and have financial difficulties he wanted to send MKP 100-150 dollars a month.

Another was he wanted me to go to woman within even though we could not financially afford this, and even though I have many reasons to stay away from the techniques that are used besides the obvious reasons people should stay away from groups that use these techniques.

Yes, organizationally MKP recognizes this, and that is why men are encouraged on the last day of NWTA to select a monthly “donation” amount to MKP during the weekend. As well as many other ways MKP uses this to their advantage. Since MKP “recognizes” this, it is obvious that they are very aware of the damages and control they have over these men and their families.

Another way is the “anger” work that is done, without really getting to the “bottom” of why a man might be angry. IMHO MKP just teaches some men how to become angry, and not the “bottom line” of the anger. My husband ended up using me as his “verbal pounding board as well as threatened to physically harm me” as I was a woman who refused to go to woman within and “would not do my work”. I was to “shut up and do as he told me or get the fuck out”. This was all within the first couple months of NWTA when my husband had never been violent towards me pre MKP.

I could as well write a book on the above, but feel that truly MKP already knows how wrong they are, but they like and use the “control” they have and they like the “money” they have.

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Garya wrote
All staff men are taught to be responsible for the safety of all processes on the NWTA weekend and in I-groups thereafter. Staff men and leaders are constantly watching each other for ego issues and the like that might get in the way of providing the best training for the men that are there.

Who trains these men and who watches them, what kind of outside accountability do they have? We all are aware of humanities capacity to “let power go to our heads”. Have you ever heard the statement “Absolute Power creates Absolute Corruption”? These “leaders and staff” have absolute power over these men during the weekend. What agency is standing there ensuring that the “power” MKP has is not abused? None obviously, it is just other MKP members who then put the blame back on the victim instead of taking responsibility.

And, I am aware that MKP members reading this are most likely "blaming" me for what I am writting and telling themselves that it is all my fault, not MKPs. I am aware that MKP members reading this are giving MKP all kinds of excuses instead of stepping back and looking at damage that MKP has created in my life.

Just wanted to pop on quickly and say that i have been involved with the MKP for about three years now and I have never been asked directly for a donation. I have received emails from time to time asking for support but I was definately never asked for any money while I was on my Weekend.

I also wanted to say to Ginah that you have obviously been hurt a great deal by your husband and his interaction with MKP. I am truly sorry for that. In my experience however I have often seen people that have gone into therapy come out very different people. Some times relationships change, people make different choices on priorities in their life and sometimes relationships suffer.

This in no way would ever condone any kind of physical violence that your husband may threatened. He sounds like a man that probably needs counselling. In mywork with MKP in my specific community many many men that attend the group see a counsellor concurrently to their attendance in an I Group.

I hope that things in your life improve!

dsuper:

You say,

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people that have gone into therapy come out very different people.

Interesting that you compare MKP to therapy.

What do you see that is wrong with MKP?

Can you understand how MKP could cause problems for families?

The manual notes for leaders are disturbing and manipulative.

dsuper, interesting you noted sometimes people come out of therapy changed. MKP is NOT supposed to be therapy, just educational. That is what they state over and over. However, IMO, it is therapy, and it does change men, sometimes for the worse.

The MKP group my husband was affiliated constantly bombard for donations. Note, my husband only went to NWTA, and did not continue anymore with them. He still gets nonstop requests for donations.

In fact, this group had an open yahoo group. I am sure it was supposed to be private, but was formed as open to the public. It was a group of the directors. In this group it was discussed as to how to raise more money. They went into the property tax records of the men to see how much property and the value of the porperty, so they could put more pressure on the more wealthy members. They hired fund raising specialists to help create a better "talk" to encourage more donations. This was all on this yahoo group. I posted this on another forum I am a member of, and one of the pro-MKP men accused me of blatantly lying. I then directed him to the website. He was livid this was going on, plus he had to come back and apologize to me. The forum was promptly shut down to the public.

As you can tell from what I have written, I do NOT think this group operated with any integrity. I could post more, but you can seek out my previous posts and understand why I think so very little of MKP.

It seems that the ability of MKP to meet the 21 Criteria for Thought Reform has been called into question, so I would like to present a breakdown of how MKP meets each point. I know this information is all here in the threads, but it seems that some persons keep calling this into question and putting it in one summary post may help. (rrmod – I will understand if you don’t post this)

1. Almost no information available on the seminar itself.

From the MKP Website: “We want your experience of the NWTA to be uncluttered by expectations or by the experiences of others who have been through the training before you….to give you the opportunity to experience the training moment by moment. For that reason we don't provide a detailed description of the training.”


2. All information is held tightly by staff.

From the MKP Website: “If you have specific concerns, feel free to contact the Center's enrollment coordinator”
Manuals are kept secret - not published for the public, and threats of legal action were made when the contents was posted here before.


3. The trainer is often an untrained or unlicensed therapist/counselor.

From the MKP Website: “led by a team of leaders who are certified by The ManKind Project …a group of highly motivated, experienced volunteer staff will assist you” (acting like therapists without licenses)
And “The NWTA is a finely coordinated series of activities: Group discussions, games, guided visualizations, journaling, and individual process work” (sounds like a good definition of therapy to me, right in their own words)


4. The seminar is developed over three weekends.

From the MKP Website:
Q.“What follow-up is available?”
A. “an eight-week Integration Training, for which there is an additional charge… In addition to continued participation in their I-Groups, many men go on to staff …and to take advanced trainings.” and “The ManKind Project…offers a series of leadership trainings….the NWTA serves as a gateway to other trainings in leadership development, facilitator training, advanced personal work,…”


5. The second weekend is usually stretched into five days.

The additional trainings are of various lengths.


6. Sessions are generally marathons in length. Often lasting upwards of twelve hours daily.


NWTA expects somewhere between 17-20 hour days according to the manual information

7. Abusive language is used against the trainees.
I couldn't find any specific references for this. anyone?


8. Psychological games are played to re-orient the trainee.

Some examples:
Replacing a man’s name with a number, replacing a man’s name with an animal name.
Putting the men in dark rooms at the beginning until they lose track of time.
Midnight Adventure, Trust Walk, Guts Process
Cold showers From the analysis of the training manual earlier on in this same thread: This is done to "facilitate a fast, powerful, masculine wake up experience." It also is done to keep "initiates in slightly off balance, not knowing what will happen state of mind."


9. Emotional stress always plays a part in the seminar.

From the analysis of the training manual earlier on in this same thread:
The purpose of all this is "to stimulate some self questioning under pressure and keep [initiates] off balance." Participants even go through "The Pat Down" a personal search, which MP says "is partially an intimidation process." During the MP weekend "initiates are suddenly left in the dark for deeper contemplation and reflection." This helps them to begin "feeling the descent."


10. Emotional pain is revisited and often redefined.

From the analysis of the training manual earlier on in this same thread:
Initiates are therefore encouraged to "touch a wound" to express their "vulnerability." And staffers are encouraged to "Make initiate aware of their issues, blocks and walls...their wounds in hearing each other." There is an exercise that has as its "purpose...to open the wounds."

11. Peer pressure is used in a highly effective manner.

From the analysis of the training manual earlier on in this same thread:
men are encouraged to have "physical contact" for "bonding." Various partnering exercises promote the bonding. Group exercises encourage the approach that "Together we have created a container strong enough to handle your feelings." There seems to be a growing group mindset that is being repeatedly encouraged progressively through the various exercises. MP says that it will "provide a space to express doubts and fears as well as the joy and excitement in this container, which enhances commitment." and then later it's time to begin "sharing...shame and pain around sexual issues."


12. The sense of individuality is diminished.

This goes part and parcel with number 13 and 15. As group identity is created, individual identity is questioned and diminished. Also the taking away of personal items and names diminish individuality, particularly when everyone is just a number. "In initiating men, it's not what you do, it's who you are. We do not do initiation, initiation does us." Ultimately the process may intentionally be designed to "snap you right out of that other world in a flash...Nohing makes sense here...only to feel."


13. Group identification and conformity is encouraged.

From the analysis of the training manual earlier on in this same thread:
MP says that "each man develops an affirmation which encompasses his mission [and] begins to identify as a man in the community of men living beyond ego (separate self) identity." and Leader and staff "model" behavior "taking clothes off to the music," which "can be wild and playful." After "everyone appears sufficently energized and naked" the men sit down in another circle for yet another talk. Men who would not have dreamed of doing a strip to music find themselves dancing and removing their clothing, sounds like group conformity to me.


14. Guilt is introduced at varying levels.

See number 15. When one’s sense of self is destabilized there would logically become a sense of inadequacy and perhaps a feeling of culpability about causing one’s own inadequacies, especially since the participants are taught to "create my own perception of reality." and that "outer reality exists as a reflection of my inner world." Anything they find faulty in their lives becomes a reflection of their past ways (see number 19.)


15. The destabilization of one’s sense of self.

Again from the analysis of the training manual earlier on in this same thread: The purpose of all this is "to stimulate some self questioning under pressure” and "Let go of expectations and attachment to outcome [and] trust The process. Be open to Spirit." (give up your personal ability to rationalize and think critically and ‘trust the process’)

16. Group dependency (on the organization) is encouraged and desired.

From the analysis of the training manual earlier on in this same thread:
There is emphasis on "Unity with New Warrior Brothers." This all can be seen as establishing a new identity for the "brother" and a group identity, which then includes him. A number of rituals emphasize this theme, using the new name repeated in various rites. MP then adds "a cognitive understanding to the experimental learning as the initiates proceed through their initiation." There is much "repetition" required and expected in this process. The "context statement" is repeated.


17. Subtle manipulation is used to bring conformity to the group.

From the analysis of the training manual earlier on in this same thread: "visualization" is used "to find the deepest need of their inner little boy." MP acknowledges that this process includes "Light trance induction" and the use of "progressive body relaxation," "awareness of breathing" and it is "communicated consistently in monotone voice."
Hypnosis?
The repetition of the ‘context statement’ is a form of manipulation as well, otherwise it would not be presented three times during the weekend. There are a number of hypnotic trances and visualizations used throughout the weekend. Hypnosis is definitely a form of manipulation.


18. The individual is given no opportunity for reflection on what he or she has been exposed to.

30 minutes of alone time are allotted in the manual through the entire weekend.


19. You are responsible for everything that has ever happened to you, either positive or negative.

See number 14.
"create my own perception of reality." and that "outer reality exists as a reflection of my inner world”


20. The individual is confronted with psychological and emotional issues that overload their ability to manage it.

"go through fear! Engage process with full attention and manifest results." The Guts processes described in detail earlier on in this thread are a deliberate attempt to confront the participants with psychological and emotional issues


21. There are without exception a number of individuals who have suffered psychological distress as a result of these seminars

The comments on this and other forums confirm that.


Remember, the quotations from the manual are that – quotations from the manual. There is no doubt to me that the writer of the manual was consciously aware of using mental manipulation on participants. Any man who has done this training and thinks he wasn’t subjected to hypnosis, brainwashing, group think exercises, or coercion needs to stop and read through this thread again in detail.

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7. Abusive language is used against the trainees.
I couldn't find any specific references for this. anyone?

According to my husband as soon as they drove up to sign in the verbal abuse started.

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dsuper
Just wanted to pop on quickly and say that i have been involved with the MKP for about three years now and I have never been asked directly for a donation. I have received emails from time to time asking for support but I was definately never asked for any money while I was on my Weekend.

I also wanted to say to Ginah that you have obviously been hurt a great deal by your husband and his interaction with MKP. I am truly sorry for that. In my experience however I have often seen people that have gone into therapy come out very different people. Some times relationships change, people make different choices on priorities in their life and sometimes relationships suffer.

This in no way would ever condone any kind of physical violence that your husband may threatened. He sounds like a man that probably needs counselling. In mywork with MKP in my specific community many many men that attend the group see a counsellor concurrently to their attendance in an I Group.

I hope that things in your life improve!

Thank you for saying you are "sorry for my pain". If you truly are you will realize how devastating MKP can truly be and not suggest MKP to any person(s) in the future. If you do, you should realize that you are making choices for other people without giving them the option of choice with full disclosure. You are making the choice for people that "if they end up hurt" oh well, you know what they need better than they do.

You just admitted that MKP is a "therapy" group not an "educational" group as MKP claims.

You stated that many people change during therapy and then make different choices of priorities in their lives. MKP tells men not to make any significant changes for at least six months.

I have, in my life, worked with counselors, therapist etc., and I have some training myself, I can guarantee that no matter how much "therapy" I have gone through, I never came back so changed within a few days of counseling that those that loved me did not recognize my personality, thoughts, emotions, actions/reactions, beliefs. I never went through a counseling that sent me back home to then abuse the people that I love.

You as well put the blame back on my husband instead of accepting that the LGAT techniques used on him during NWTA caused him great emotional trauma.

You then state that many people go to counseling as well as I-Groups never commenting on what my husband was told by MKP that "the counselors that I was working with just did not like the MKP competiton".

If you reread your comment to me I think you will realize that you say you are sorry for my pain, and then go into but mkp, but mkp, but mkp, instead of saying "MKP screwed up". IE: In my experience, some times relationships change, MKP in no way condone, all of these are but, but, but statements.

I have heard it said on several occasions that MPK is not money driven. The usual justification for this assertion is that because MPK is a non-profit company then there must not be anyone making significant amounts of money. L. Ron Hubbard, before founding scientology, once wrote a letter to a friend and stated that the best way to make money is to start a religion.

Contrary to what is believed by many, some non-profit companies provide inordinately large incomes for their president and executives. Various segments of The American Red Cross and The United Way have had their hands slapped for not using collected funds for the purposes that they promised. Some credit unions operate in much the same way as commercial banks, using their tax advantages to secure large accounts instead of attempting to support small businesses and provided services for low and middle income individuals in their communities. While these entities are not allowed to earn corporate profits, it is very difficult to determine whether they are paying their president and executives a "fair wage" or something much more than that.

The difference between MPK and other non-profit groups is that MPK does not have any kind of charter or list of guiding principles that is regulated by any kind of independent controlling body. As a result there would seem to be even greater means for generating income for the people at the top because there is no set structure for how a company of that type is supposed to function. L. Ron Hubbard instructed his people to "Take cash up front and promise nothing". In this regard, MPK and other LGATs operate in much the same way as the church of scientology. They receive all of their revenue upfront and offer little in the way of promises. Many even go so far as to blame the trainee if the trainee does not feel like they got their money's worth. There is no accountability for results or for the use of the tuition that has been collected.

While MPK would like people to think otherwise, the simple math of:

Revenue - Business Costs = Residual Income

holds true for all organizations. If MPK has a low overhead, and it sounds like they do, then the rest of the funds are going into someone’s pocket. Since the corporation is not allowed to earn a profit, then the excess money is showing up on an “employee’s” W-2 as personal income.