I'm having a hard time recovering from my relationship with a man who is a MKP member. For two years I feel I was under some kind of mind control.

Ginah, you put into words what I have not been able to do. I knew my feelings, just could not verbalize it.

Thank you for speaking for me.

Great post, Ginah.

What makes it so great is it captures the emotional pain MKP has caused.

AND it is also not purely from an emotional point of view. It also comes from a point of knowledge of what the LGAT is about, what methods are used, and how they affect people.

Thank you.

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ginah
I am requesting that MKP persons request their significant others to join these groups and put their "two cents" in. This request is because I find no women here whos spouse is pro MKP who think their husband is now a "better husband".

I agree, Ginah. I would like to hear such input too. Maybe Twillia1's girlfriend would be willing to post her testimony. It would be more credible to hear it from the wives that their husbands are better men because of mkp than hearing it from the husband himself. It is interesting that this is an often used claim by mkp'ers. Is it another mantra, like the "pot of gold," "gifts," "integrity," "share the fruit, not the tree," "give the weekend a try before you judge" . . .?

However, I do know that mkp'ers highly recommend that their wives join the Woman Within, which is the female version of MKP. When my hubby came home from the weekend, he said that the mkp'ers were stressing this point, as if we wives didn't go, and if the men told us any details, we may not understand the gifts the men received over the weekend--that people on the outside may not understand. Hmm . . . red flag? Anyway, I digress . . . sorry. So I guess I would like to see testimonials from wifes who are also not part of the Woman Within group (see [www.womanwithin.org] for more info--interesting, I just noticed that the shopping link is really a page requesting donations).

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ginah
They seem to indicate that a womans emotions and point of views are unimportant. Is this how MKP shows they are not anti woman? or anti marriage? These following statements seem to underhandedly (psychologically) move men towards seeing women as non important.

I agree, Ginah. I find it interesting that supposedly men get involved with mkp and I-groups to get in touch with their feelings, but then they discount the feelings of others. Take for example, the "Crying is blackmail" rule. I understand that Twillia1 excuses this list of rules as it was meant to be funny, but it this rule is cruel, given all the good reasons for crying (a healthy display of emotion), such as death, illness, betrayal, etc. And if a woman, heaven forbid, cries because of how an action or comment from her husband affected her, this rule basically excuses this behavior and blames the victim. Hmm . . . sounds pro-woman to me. ;-)

Several comments are very stereotypical of women, such as the shopping and soap opera comments. MKP supposedly rebels against the stereotypical roles that society places on them as men, but then they perpetuate stereotypes of women. Hmm . . . sound hypocritcal? But then again, the list continnues to perpetuate sterotypes of men as well, with a focus on sports. (My hubby is not a sports fanatic and does not shut down on football sundays/mondays.)

"Yes and No are perfectly acceptable answers to almost every question" does not suggest that open communication is a valuable asset to a healthy relationship. "Sympathy is what your girlfriends are for" suggests that men cannot be emotionally available--is that really what the "new warrior" is trying to accomplish?

"Anything we said 6 months ago is inadmissible in an argument. In fact, all comments become null and void after 7 Days" flies in the face of the [b:660ef08a9d]accountability[/b:660ef08a9d] mkp mantra.

I would better understand if such a list is supposed to be humorous if sent via e-mail to some of your friends (minus the ones I have mentioned here), but when it is shared with an organization of men that is supposed to be getting in touch with their emotions or trying to be "better husbands," I think this list is insulting to women and counter-productive to the claimed goals of the "educational" organization of mkp. How is this list educating men in productive ways?

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feldspar
I found this link somewhat interesting.

[perso.orange.fr]

I as well, I will definitely have to reread this more slowly and think about it. Thank you for the info.

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Witness

...after seeing that one guy become mentally broken/possibly suicidal...

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twilla1

Witness, you have no way of knowing that man's state of mind. Depending on how much of the weekend you went through, you learned about judgement vs data - this is judgement.

IMHO, I admit that if he had "heard" of the situation, it would be "judgment". The fact that he was there, and saw what was happening with his own eyes, he 1. Had seen what upset this man 2. Saw with his own eyes how the man reacted 3. Was able to personally witness the mans physical reactions 4. Saw how long it took to calm the man down 5. Was going through a weekend of sharing about yourselves with others and therefore probably knew a few things about this man, and so.... he had data, he saw, heard, smelled, touched, spoke to and made an informed decision about what took place. Which is soooo different from the basic concept of judgment.

twilla1 What did you learn about judgement? I ask this because your reply definitely sounds like one to me.

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Witness
...after the forced group homoeroticism...

Twilla1
the dictionary definition of homoeroticism is to be sexually aroused by an individual of the same sex, though not necessarily act upon this feeling. Again, unless you yourself were aroused by the naked men, or personally witnessed another man being aroused by it, I would ask that you reconsider your use of that term.

Actually, The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.

homoeroticism
NOUN: A homoerotic quality or theme.

And another dictionary
noun
Definition:
homosexual eroticism: eroticism that is focused on or inspired by people of the same sex

What dictionary are you looking in Twilla1? From what I can find, and I did do an internet search, homoeroticism means nothing that you stated. I as well typed in your definition and the closest thing I could find to your definition was homosexual, NOT homoeroticism.

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twilla1 wrote
The morons who say that is "brainwashing" obviously have no idea what MKP is about. The heart is what guides us in relationships, makes us better husbands and fathers and lovers, and allows us to open ourselves to experiencing life to the fullest. This is not a bad thing! However, to people who are "in their heads" it is foreign.

This is a basic "judgment" statement and is disrespectful and is: PARANOID - WE ARE BEING PERSECUTED Any time you say anything negative about the group, whether justified or no, it is regarded as "persecution". Any criticism of the individual is also seen as persecution only because they are the "enlightened" one - not because they, as an individual, have done the wrong thing. However, at the same time they will feel free to criticise whatever you believe, say and do because they are "the only ones who are right".

We do know what mkp is about, you just don't want to admit that FACT. And yeah, I know I have said the above before about paranoid. It is so on target that I love saying it. AND if you were to have ever told my husband pre mkp that I was "in my head" and not my emotions, he would have spent the next ten years laughing at you. I am probably one of the most "not in my head" persons you will ever have the pleasure of having discussions with.
:wink: You see also, I have, gone with my heart, gut feelings, emotions about mkp, and those are the things that made me start researching mkp. If I had been "stuck with my head", I would have just read the mkp site, and gone, oh, they are wonderful, and then done nothing else whatever my post mkp experience. Though when/if I post my experience, any fool would have seen, EVEN WITH THEIR HEAD, the damage mkp causes.

I don't remember where I found this but, I feel in my gut that its right on with mkp. Most of this speaks of my life post mkp. When/if I post my story, you will see how.

Social disruption, isolation and pressure. This implies that there is a current social structure that is being disrupted. Along with an individual which is going against the structure and ones still involved in the structure. This seems more like an issue of freedom.

I'm not just talking about social structure -- I'm talking about the entire social fabric of one's life. If a group teaches you that your relationships with your family and friends are somehow toxic, evil, or even just impeding your development, it immediately cuts you off from all of your traditional 'sounding boards.' You don't notice that right away, because the group is right there to replace them. We are all dependent, albeit to varying degrees, on feedback to evaluate our beliefs and behavior -- controlling that feedback is an incredibly powerful technique to change behavior, particularly when the recruit is unaware that it is happening.

My whole premise here is that it is possible for an unethical group to substitute compliance for [b:881a7f8844]choice[/b:881a7f8844] through [b:881a7f8844]deception and manipulation[/b:881a7f8844].

Use of auto-hypnosis to induce 'peak' experiences

ABUSE OF INTIMACY
Relationships with friends, relatives, spouses, children, parents etc are broken or seriously hampered.

ABUSE OF FINANCES
Pressure to give all you can to the group. In non-communal groups, members usually live at the lower socio-economic strata, not because of a lower income level, but because they are always giving money to the group for some reason.

Anyone and everything outside the group is seen as "of the devil" or "unenlightened" or "not ready" etc.

ABUSE OF TIME AND ENERGY
The group controls and uses almost all the members time and energy in group activities. They are usually in a constant state of mental and physical exhaustion.

PERSONALITY CHANGES

Relatives will say they no longer recognize the person.

(Whoa, when/if, I post my story, you will see how this is definitely an appropriate description in my situation post mkp)

From a warm, loving personality will come heaped abuse, rejection and feelings of hate. The cult member sees himself as "righteous" in
comparison and this comes across in their attitude toward all outsiders.

PARANOID - WE ARE BEING PERSECUTED

Any time you say anything negative about the group, whether justified or no, it is regarded as "persecution". Any criticism of the individual is also seen as persecution only because they are the "enlightened" one - not because they, as an individual, have done the wrong thing. However, at the same time they will feel free to criticise whatever you believe, say and do because they are "the only ones who are right".

THOUGHT CONTROL

Thought control is more subtle. The victim doesn't know who is the enemy because the enemy seems like their best friend who only has their
best interests at heart.

Cults practice a more refined form of thought control than that used by the Chinese. Leading psychologist, Dr Margaret Singer, said cults do it better than the Chinese because it is easier to get people to do what you want through manipulating them with guilt and anxiety. During this process the prospective recruit is re-educated and will abandon the precepts he has learnt from life for the "truth" or "enlightenment" offered by the group. In some cults this is done over a long period of time; Other cults can bring about this change within 48 hours. Whichever way the process takes place the results are the same. The individual has undergone a total change in personality and is often unrecognisable by their family.

"Theocratic strategy" - If you don't have a right to know the truth it is OK to lie to you.

CULT OF CONFESSION
Totalist confession is an act of self-surrender, the expression of the merging of the individual and environment. There is a dissolution of self, talents and money. Conformity. The cult of confession has effects quite the reverse of its ideal of total exposure; rather than eliminating personal secrets, it increases and intensifies them.

The cult of confession makes it virtually impossible to attain reasonable balance between worth and humility.

LOADING THE LANGUAGE - Thought terminating cliches

Everything is compressed into brief, highly reductive, definitive-sounding phrases, easily memorised and easily expressed.

There are "good" terms which represents the groups ideology and "evil" terms to represent everything outside which is to be rejected. Totalist language is intensely divisive, all-encompassing jargon, unmercifully judging. To those outside the group this language is tedious - the language of non-thought.

This effectively isolates members from the outside world. The only people who understand you are other members. Other members can tell if you are really one of them by how you talk.

This narrowness of the language is constricting. The individual is linguistically deprived because language is central to the human
experience and his capacities for thinking and feeling are immensely
restricted.

Ginah, again, excellent post.

I related all the points you made to my situation and they fit perfectly. Thanks for expressing them so well.

I am sure, down the road, they will come in useful when explaining the situation to others, and hopefully to my girlfriend when she is able and willing to look at it.

Thank you.

If another two cents could be added to the collection plate: Healthy growth experiences lead one to appreciate the richness of life, the widely diverse ways that others lead their lives and contemplate "reality", and as a result, lead one on to a greater richness of language and expession, a fuller, more deeply "colored" emotionality while retaining the respect for personal boundaries and appropriate conduct, and greater curiosity about life as it goes on all around.

It isn't all that important what any social phenomonon is labelled, whether it be a "LGAT", a "cult", a "multi level marketing operation" ... the crucial thing to watch is how it affects the emotional and intellectual texture of the participants. Does their vocabulary grow or does it shrink ? Are they emotionally fuller and deeper, and comfortable with their emotions, or do they become emotionally "grey" and simplistic.... do they have the confidence to allow themselves heartfelt expressivity or do they emote in programmatic ways ? Do they appear to be fully thinking for themselves or does it seem like some else is thinking for them ? Does their language show spontaneous use of imagery, metaphor, and analogy that indicates a free flowing internal imaginative process, or are only certain images and analogies repeated over and over ? [b:27758d9d27] Can they see the humor in their own failings, the failings of their leaders or trainers, and within their organization? [/b:27758d9d27] I think all healthy organizations, whether they be churches, corporations, or government agencies, have the ability, I would say the self confidence, to both laugh at their weaknesses as the inevitable human condition, and at the same time, have the strength and commitment to address their weaknesses in an honest way. It is the group that cannot laugh at itself, nor see the absurdity of its pretensions, that should worry us...