Mankind project
Posted by:
ginah
()
Date: August 22, 2006 02:09AM
I have been keeping up with this site and reading the yahoo groups as well. I was interested in the idea of girlfriends/significant others of MKPers joining the discussions here. I would like to hear first hand from them about their experiences and feelings in regards to their spouses being involved with MKP. I am requesting that MKP persons request their significant others to join these groups and put their "two cents" in. This request is because I find no women here whos spouse is pro MKP who think their husband is now a "better husband". If you are not comfortable with this idea, I will suggest (as another person has), that you are then not keeping a confidence, you are keeping secrets from someone you claim to love.
Mankind project
Posted by:
Ivy
()
Date: August 22, 2006 02:19AM
So far we have never had any other spouse, not to mention for all we know they are now posing as the wives! I havent seen many happy wives! So far from my husbands NWTA 2005 in sept! 3 more have quit from his I group plus my husband. I have heard that they either are saying they dont have time or are finding no use for it! Or just playing see threw the smoke!
Mankind project
Posted by:
twillia1
()
Date: August 22, 2006 10:41PM
[b:8ae73f8fd1]Ginah[/b:8ae73f8fd1]
Well, thank you, Ginah. Coming from someone as obviously open-minded as yourself, I'll take that as a compliment.
[b:8ae73f8fd1]Ginah[/b:8ae73f8fd1]
Not at all! I am simply stating that men being nude in front of each other is still men being nude in front of each other no matter what the situation. It is you and others on this forum who are assigning your own "stuff" to that nudity.
[b:8ae73f8fd1]Ginah[/b:8ae73f8fd1]
I agree with you here, Ginah, with a caveat: Men (at least in my community) are always invited to an open I-group before their weekend. While this does not disclose the processes, etc. from the weekend, it does make them a bit more educated about the end result.
[b:8ae73f8fd1]amr123[/b:8ae73f8fd1]
So amr123, to be clear, you attended a meeting ahead of time, and [i:8ae73f8fd1]still[/i:8ae73f8fd1] decided to attend the training weekend?
[b:8ae73f8fd1]amr123[/b:8ae73f8fd1]
I can't answer any of those things. Of course, you all assume I must be brainwashed, so anything I say here you can take with a grain of salt. There was no "revelation" for me. Parts of the weekend "spoke" to me and parts did not. The accountability piece was huge for me - it showed me how easily I had made and borken promises in my life, and the effects that it had on me and others. The "game" showed me how I often don't trust my gut instinct in life. And to this day, I love doing sweat lodges - I have the most peaceful dreams afterwards and sleep way better.
And speaking of gut instinct, mine never went off that anything was "wrong" with the weekend. And since I only have a better life to show for it, I'm thinking my gut was correct. But again, you all believe I'm brainwashed, so that probably means nothing to you.
[b:8ae73f8fd1]amr123[/b:8ae73f8fd1]
I cannot speak for MKP as an organization. I can tell you that the men in [b:8ae73f8fd1]my [/b:8ae73f8fd1]group and the men in [b:8ae73f8fd1]my [/b:8ae73f8fd1]community that I have staffed with, really believe that they are doing something good for the men who go through. AND it is often true that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
[b:8ae73f8fd1]Ginah[/b:8ae73f8fd1]
You posted a list of "guys' rules." Again, some of this I agree with, and some I don't, and I believe the original intention of it was to be funny. But, since you brought it up, here goes:
Men are NOT mind readers - TRUE
Ask for what you want - TRUE
Shopping is NOT a sport - TRUE
I always leave the seat down as a courtesy to my girlfriend AND what is said here is totally true!!! I don't see women putting the seat up for men! You want equality in work, pay, and status - why not in toilet seat position? I don't get it! :roll:
A headache that lasts for 17 months is a Problem - TRUE
You can either ask us to do something or tell us how you want it done.
Not both. - TRUE
If you ask a question you don't want an answer to, expect an answer you don't want to hear. - TRUE
The rest of the items there is room for negotiation...
[b:8ae73f8fd1]Witness[/b:8ae73f8fd1]
Witness, you have no way of knowing that man's state of mind. Depending on how much of the weekend you went through, you learned about judgement vs data - this is judgement.
This isn't just LGAT-speak - this is [i:8ae73f8fd1]life[/i:8ae73f8fd1]! For example, a friend of my girlfriend and her kids went to an amusement park over the weekend with me, my g/f, and my kids. We all had exactly the same experience, rides, food, etc. But she (my g/f's friend) b*tched and complained the entire time about the heat, the lines, buying tickets, etc. Everyone had a great time except her. It doesn't make her wrong, but it doesn't make us wrong either - she got out of it what she put into it, and at the end of the day, we had 6 beaming happy people and one frowning one!
BTW, I don't know how many LGAT groups say that because MKP is the only thing even close to an LGAT that I've been through.
[b:8ae73f8fd1]Ginah[/b:8ae73f8fd1]
Ginah, my g/f [b:8ae73f8fd1]has [/b:8ae73f8fd1]been reading these posts. Her judgement (and mine) is that Gandhi himself could come on here and tell about his good experience in MKP, and it would do absolutely zero good. Her judgement (and I partially share this judgement with her) is that the women on here are just p*ssed off at their lives and are looking for something to blame other than themselves and their husbands - because that would be too much like accepting responsibility for your own actions. Again, my and her judgements, not data.
Quote
Or...... nobody felt that it was significant enough to reply to?
Well, thank you, Ginah. Coming from someone as obviously open-minded as yourself, I'll take that as a compliment.
[b:8ae73f8fd1]Ginah[/b:8ae73f8fd1]
Quote
Are you shaming/guilting this man? I thought that was not the MKP way?
Not at all! I am simply stating that men being nude in front of each other is still men being nude in front of each other no matter what the situation. It is you and others on this forum who are assigning your own "stuff" to that nudity.
[b:8ae73f8fd1]Ginah[/b:8ae73f8fd1]
Quote
The omission of lies etc during recruitment are also far from being honest and I feel that to use such needs its own accountability.
I agree with you here, Ginah, with a caveat: Men (at least in my community) are always invited to an open I-group before their weekend. While this does not disclose the processes, etc. from the weekend, it does make them a bit more educated about the end result.
[b:8ae73f8fd1]amr123[/b:8ae73f8fd1]
Quote
...I know that I am lucky that I escaped the pitfalls that ensnare so many of us. Anyway, the reason I mention this is that the group leader really focused on those issues during the meeting I attended...
So amr123, to be clear, you attended a meeting ahead of time, and [i:8ae73f8fd1]still[/i:8ae73f8fd1] decided to attend the training weekend?
[b:8ae73f8fd1]amr123[/b:8ae73f8fd1]
Quote
Next, something I wonder about is what is the big revelation that happens at the end of the weekend? I believe it is just another brainwashing tactic, but don't know what it is or what purpose it serves.
I can't answer any of those things. Of course, you all assume I must be brainwashed, so anything I say here you can take with a grain of salt. There was no "revelation" for me. Parts of the weekend "spoke" to me and parts did not. The accountability piece was huge for me - it showed me how easily I had made and borken promises in my life, and the effects that it had on me and others. The "game" showed me how I often don't trust my gut instinct in life. And to this day, I love doing sweat lodges - I have the most peaceful dreams afterwards and sleep way better.
And speaking of gut instinct, mine never went off that anything was "wrong" with the weekend. And since I only have a better life to show for it, I'm thinking my gut was correct. But again, you all believe I'm brainwashed, so that probably means nothing to you.
[b:8ae73f8fd1]amr123[/b:8ae73f8fd1]
Quote
Finally, what does MKP hope to accomplish by drawing in all these people? Is it just the financial gain, or is there something else?
I cannot speak for MKP as an organization. I can tell you that the men in [b:8ae73f8fd1]my [/b:8ae73f8fd1]group and the men in [b:8ae73f8fd1]my [/b:8ae73f8fd1]community that I have staffed with, really believe that they are doing something good for the men who go through. AND it is often true that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
[b:8ae73f8fd1]Ginah[/b:8ae73f8fd1]
You posted a list of "guys' rules." Again, some of this I agree with, and some I don't, and I believe the original intention of it was to be funny. But, since you brought it up, here goes:
Men are NOT mind readers - TRUE
Ask for what you want - TRUE
Shopping is NOT a sport - TRUE
Quote
Learn to work the toilet seat. You're a big girl. If it's up, put it down. We need it up, you need it down. You don't hear us complaining about you leaving it down.
I always leave the seat down as a courtesy to my girlfriend AND what is said here is totally true!!! I don't see women putting the seat up for men! You want equality in work, pay, and status - why not in toilet seat position? I don't get it! :roll:
A headache that lasts for 17 months is a Problem - TRUE
You can either ask us to do something or tell us how you want it done.
Not both. - TRUE
If you ask a question you don't want an answer to, expect an answer you don't want to hear. - TRUE
The rest of the items there is room for negotiation...
[b:8ae73f8fd1]Witness[/b:8ae73f8fd1]
Quote
...after seeing that one guy become mentally broken/possibly suicidal...
Witness, you have no way of knowing that man's state of mind. Depending on how much of the weekend you went through, you learned about judgement vs data - this is judgement.
But you were not intimidated, correct? So people [b:8ae73f8fd1]can [/b:8ae73f8fd1]resist the brainwashing! (Sarcasm)Quote
...after the attempted intimidation...
I never felt deprived of sleep AND I hear that you did.Quote
...after the sleep-depravation...
Witness, the dictionary definition of homoeroticism is [i:8ae73f8fd1]to be sexually aroused by an individual of the same sex, though not necessarily act upon this feeling.[/i:8ae73f8fd1] Again, unless you yourself were aroused by the naked men, or personally witnessed another man being aroused by it, I would ask that you reconsider your use of that term.Quote
...after the forced group homoeroticism...
Quote
...you will get exactly out of the weekend what you put into it.” How many times to LGAT groups say that, “if you don’t “get it,” it’s your fault, not ours”.
This isn't just LGAT-speak - this is [i:8ae73f8fd1]life[/i:8ae73f8fd1]! For example, a friend of my girlfriend and her kids went to an amusement park over the weekend with me, my g/f, and my kids. We all had exactly the same experience, rides, food, etc. But she (my g/f's friend) b*tched and complained the entire time about the heat, the lines, buying tickets, etc. Everyone had a great time except her. It doesn't make her wrong, but it doesn't make us wrong either - she got out of it what she put into it, and at the end of the day, we had 6 beaming happy people and one frowning one!
BTW, I don't know how many LGAT groups say that because MKP is the only thing even close to an LGAT that I've been through.
Really, Witness? So if the instructors (in your disoriented, sleep-deprived state) had told you to jump off a 100 foot cliff, would you have done it? I'm betting that you would not have.Quote
We got naked, multiple times, because we, in our disoriented sleep-deprived state, were told to do so by the instructors.
[b:8ae73f8fd1]Ginah[/b:8ae73f8fd1]
Quote
I am requesting that MKP persons request their significant others to join these groups and put their "two cents" in.
Ginah, my g/f [b:8ae73f8fd1]has [/b:8ae73f8fd1]been reading these posts. Her judgement (and mine) is that Gandhi himself could come on here and tell about his good experience in MKP, and it would do absolutely zero good. Her judgement (and I partially share this judgement with her) is that the women on here are just p*ssed off at their lives and are looking for something to blame other than themselves and their husbands - because that would be too much like accepting responsibility for your own actions. Again, my and her judgements, not data.
Mankind project
Posted by:
twillia1
()
Date: August 22, 2006 10:43PM
Quote
I havent seen many happy wives!
And if they were here, you would not see them, because you don't WANT to see them.
Mankind project
Posted by:
twillia1
()
Date: August 23, 2006 12:07AM
Quote
So far from my husbands NWTA 2005 in sept 3 more have quit from his I group plus my husband
And so far from my February 2005 NWTA, NO men have quit I-Group that started it - two chose not to start it. Note the word "chose." Some men drive an hour to come to I-Group. What's your point?
Mankind project
Posted by:
Brad69
()
Date: August 23, 2006 01:24AM
Twillia 1, maybe YOU aren't open to seeing things.
While you and your girlfriend have found MKP fine, there are plenty of people on these boards who have had less than happy experiences. See the thread [board.culteducation.com]
Maybe now you will understand why some people are anti-MKP.
Others of us are anti other LGATs after finding strangers, who used to be loving family, spouses, friends, changed and distant and suddenly rejecting all the love and support they have always had in their lives in favour of the support of strangers.
Many of us are very angry. I am sure many are angry at the insinuation that we don't want to see the facts as you put them. Rather judge your own experience and let others judge their own experiences.
However, considering the vast amount of information on these boards, read about MKP and other LGATs; if you see some disquieting practices at least you will have been forewarned.
LGATs, while the details may differ, often follow similar formats. See [www.culteducation.com]
Then check out how many of the requirements for manipulation, coercive persuasion, thought reform, mind control - whatever you want to call it - were present in MKP. See [www.culteducation.com]
Is MKP up front about what they are doing? Are they trained [b:221e1813d1]and qualified[/b:221e1813d1] to be using the methods they use?
MKP won't fit everything that follows, but maybe some questions should be seen as warnings. Obviously, it covers a lot of ground, but be open to investigating and making informed decisions based upon important questions.
LGATs, while they have helped some people, have often used less than ethical methods. They have also stuffed up many people's lives as these boards will attest to - both those who have been involved with LGATs and those who have been affected by the involvement of a loved one.
Good for you that your experience has been a decent one. Speaking for myself, as the result of some courses my girlfriend attended, I can honestly say I have never felt such hurt, pain, anger, despair and disbelief in my life at the affect it has had on her.
It has now been going on for a year. Others have suffered longer. Others seem to have lost the battle for the ones they loved. It hurts badly and lives have been turned upside down.
It is horrible struggling through night after night of broken sleep. It is horrible waking up with a pit in one's stomach day after day, wondering how everything went wrong, wondering how to change it and get through to the affected person. This is the reality of many people's experiences.
Through study on these forums, reading many books, consulting people, I know she has been messed with. And I have a problem with the methods used on her - methods I see commonly used in LGAT after LGAT.
Are you familiar with any of these [b:221e1813d1]red flags[/b:221e1813d1]?
RED FLAGS
While by no means complete, the following list of "red flags" may help you sort through the thousands of personal growth programs. If you encounter one of these red flags in a program you’re considering, step back. Resist pressure (internal or external) to make a decision; ask more questions. If you discover two or more red flags in a program you are considering, I recommend that you avoid that program like the plague.
• Secrecy around the processes and techniques used (This is very different from protecting the confidentiality of any participant’s work, which should be absolutely sacred).
• Refusal to talk to or coordinate with your therapist or counselor.
• Programs built on the ideas and/or leadership of one charismatic person.
• Nagging doubts about the facilitators, staff or program content.
• Challenging, defensive or discounting responses to your questions.
• Vague or over-general promises of participant success.
• "Hard-sell" tactics.
• Pressure on graduates to recruit more participants.
Some other questions one needs to ask:
What is the background of the facilitator(s)?
In general, the greater the emotional intensity of the program, the more important the therapeutic background of the facilitators. If a facilitator promises dramatic, life-changing results, you should have complete confidence in that facilitator’s professionalism and ability to deal with emotionally charged, deep-seated psychological material. A dynamic speaker, powerful motivator or "certified" trainer is not necessarily qualified to facilitate deep emotional change in individuals and groups. Ask for credentials. It is always preferable that any intensive emotional program be facilitated by at least one experienced and licensed clinical psychotherapist.
Are you making an informed decision?
Anytime you consider a life-altering decision, be sure you think through its consequences. Base your decision on as much information as you can reasonably acquire. Just as you would engage in research and soul-searching prior to getting married, starting a new career, having a child or making a big investment, apply that same approach to decisions about your personal growth. Representatives of some programs are secretive about the processes they employ; they expect participants to pay up front and attend the program without asking probing questions. They may even turn reasonable questions against prospective participants, challenging them to "get out of their head" and "trust the process." In reality, you’ll find it much easier to trust a process when your questions are met with direct, responsive answers.
MORE QUESTIONS
Questions to Help the Assessment Process
1. Who is the leader?
What are his/her background and qualifications?
Have you relied solely on trust that all of the information you were given is true or have you done independent investigation?
Do you feel pressure to accept and not question at all?
Is it possible that there are misrepresentations or falsehoods?
Is there external corroboration for extraordinary claims of accomplishment or are they simply his/her say-so?
If "miracles" have been performed, can they be replicated under open observation or even under scientific conditions?
Are there other explanations for the "miracles," such as magic tricks, hypnosis, etc.?
If there is a former leader or member, have you sought him or her out to hear for yourself critical information? If not, are you afraid to trust your ability to discern the truthfulness of what you learn?
If you find yourself saying that you don't care if there are major deceptions, ask yourself if you knew this information before you became involved, would you have even bothered to make a commitment of time and money?
2. Are there exclusive claims made to wisdom, knowledge, love, and truth? If so, the burden of proof is on the leader to demonstrate his or her superiority, not on members to disprove it. A truly "developed" spiritual being exudes love, compassion, and humility. Any person who claims to be "superior" but does not practice what they preach is of questionable character. There is never incongruency between words and deeds. A person who uses fear and phobia indoctrination to control followers demonstrates insecurity and lack of spiritual maturity.
3. Is total submission and obedience required? Any relationship that demands giving up one's personal integrity and conscience is dangerous and leads to totalitarianism. Be wary of those who advocate "the ends justify the means," especially when it clearly serves their own self-interest. Also, make sure that your desire "to believe" doesn't simply activate the common psychological defense mechanisms: denial, rationalization, justification, and wishful thinking. If a doctrine is true or a person is truly spiritually advanced, they will stand up to the scrutiny of objective evaluation. If they do not prove themselves, they are probably not worthy of your commitment and devotion.
4. Does he/ she have a criminal record, a legacy of allegations against him/her or a history of misconduct? If there are allegations of misconduct against the leader, the responsible follower must seek out the negative information and the sources of that information to evaluate the truth. If a leader claims to be celibate and allegations are made that the leader engaged in inappropriate sex, this is an extreme violation of integrity. It must be investigated vigorously. It is never appropriate for teachers, therapists, or spiritual masters to take advantage of a power differential over followers. This is especially true in the area of sexuality. It is grossly unethical to engage in sexual relations with someone who has placed their trust in as a teacher/advisor/master. Many followers are incredibly vulnerable to this and unable to resist sexual intimacy. Anyone should be able to say "no."
Is he or she a "trust bandit," stealing hearts, souls, minds, bodies, and pocketbooks for his or her own ends?
5. Does the leader demonstrate psychological problems and awareness of their existence?
Does the leader have addictions to power, drugs, alcohol, sex, even television or shopping?
Does the leader have emotional outbursts?
Does the leader physically abuse followers?
Does the leader drive expensive cars and wear expensive clothes while extolling the virtues of renunciation?
Does the leader financially exploit followers by expecting them to live in poverty while he or she indulges in luxury?
Is the group or leader's driveway habitually filled with luxury cars while ordinary people find him or her inaccessible and unreachable?
Does the leader ever encourage deception or use deception as a "technique" to trick followers into so-called correct thinking and understanding?
Codependent behavior by a spiritual teacher should be a warning sign of danger. Codependency includes: obsessively trying to control others; allowing people to hurt and use them; lack of clear boundaries; being reactive, not proactive; tunnel visioned; obsessive worrying and denial; expectations of perfection and suppression of human needs. (Beattie, Beyond Codependency, Harper/Hazelden, 1989)
6. Are questions and doubts permitted within the organization?
A healthy spiritual environment must engage individual followers at
their level of experience and should encourage them to feel and think and therefore question their beliefs and exercise good decision-making. In this way, the follower can investigate, discriminate, and test the dogma and the environment they are being asked to accept, between what his or her personal issues are and what might be an unhealthy environment. If intense pressure is used to dissuade people who wish to talk with former members or critics, it is a clear sign of information control. Controlling information is one of the most essential components of mind control.
7. Is the organization open or closed?
Are there organizational secrets?
Are there "in" groups and "out" groups?
Are there restricted teachings for initiates only?
Are there secret texts and publications "for your eyes only"?
Is there real financial accountability?
If a group says that you can look at its accounting records, does it actually provide access?
The only way to know is to ask to see the records. If you are afraid to ask, what does this say about the atmosphere of the group?
8. What structural checks and balances exist within the organization to prevent abuse of power?
Are there divisive sectarian biases, even in the name of interdenominational ecumenicism and universality?
Is there an independent "ethics"committee to challenge and change policies of the group?
If there are abuses or injustices, what structure exists to correct them?
Can anyone legitimately question the actions of the leader without threat of emotional withdraw or fear of expulsion to "hell"?
Do the rich and powerful get preferential treatment?
Are "indulgences" (spiritual pardons) sold?
Is there a "code of silence" against unethical behavior of leaders?
These questions posed above come from Michael Langone - executive director of the International Cultic Studies Association, and Steve Hassan - well-known cult expert and exit counsellor.
While you and your girlfriend have found MKP fine, there are plenty of people on these boards who have had less than happy experiences. See the thread [board.culteducation.com]
Maybe now you will understand why some people are anti-MKP.
Others of us are anti other LGATs after finding strangers, who used to be loving family, spouses, friends, changed and distant and suddenly rejecting all the love and support they have always had in their lives in favour of the support of strangers.
Many of us are very angry. I am sure many are angry at the insinuation that we don't want to see the facts as you put them. Rather judge your own experience and let others judge their own experiences.
However, considering the vast amount of information on these boards, read about MKP and other LGATs; if you see some disquieting practices at least you will have been forewarned.
LGATs, while the details may differ, often follow similar formats. See [www.culteducation.com]
Then check out how many of the requirements for manipulation, coercive persuasion, thought reform, mind control - whatever you want to call it - were present in MKP. See [www.culteducation.com]
Is MKP up front about what they are doing? Are they trained [b:221e1813d1]and qualified[/b:221e1813d1] to be using the methods they use?
MKP won't fit everything that follows, but maybe some questions should be seen as warnings. Obviously, it covers a lot of ground, but be open to investigating and making informed decisions based upon important questions.
LGATs, while they have helped some people, have often used less than ethical methods. They have also stuffed up many people's lives as these boards will attest to - both those who have been involved with LGATs and those who have been affected by the involvement of a loved one.
Good for you that your experience has been a decent one. Speaking for myself, as the result of some courses my girlfriend attended, I can honestly say I have never felt such hurt, pain, anger, despair and disbelief in my life at the affect it has had on her.
It has now been going on for a year. Others have suffered longer. Others seem to have lost the battle for the ones they loved. It hurts badly and lives have been turned upside down.
It is horrible struggling through night after night of broken sleep. It is horrible waking up with a pit in one's stomach day after day, wondering how everything went wrong, wondering how to change it and get through to the affected person. This is the reality of many people's experiences.
Through study on these forums, reading many books, consulting people, I know she has been messed with. And I have a problem with the methods used on her - methods I see commonly used in LGAT after LGAT.
Are you familiar with any of these [b:221e1813d1]red flags[/b:221e1813d1]?
RED FLAGS
While by no means complete, the following list of "red flags" may help you sort through the thousands of personal growth programs. If you encounter one of these red flags in a program you’re considering, step back. Resist pressure (internal or external) to make a decision; ask more questions. If you discover two or more red flags in a program you are considering, I recommend that you avoid that program like the plague.
• Secrecy around the processes and techniques used (This is very different from protecting the confidentiality of any participant’s work, which should be absolutely sacred).
• Refusal to talk to or coordinate with your therapist or counselor.
• Programs built on the ideas and/or leadership of one charismatic person.
• Nagging doubts about the facilitators, staff or program content.
• Challenging, defensive or discounting responses to your questions.
• Vague or over-general promises of participant success.
• "Hard-sell" tactics.
• Pressure on graduates to recruit more participants.
Some other questions one needs to ask:
What is the background of the facilitator(s)?
In general, the greater the emotional intensity of the program, the more important the therapeutic background of the facilitators. If a facilitator promises dramatic, life-changing results, you should have complete confidence in that facilitator’s professionalism and ability to deal with emotionally charged, deep-seated psychological material. A dynamic speaker, powerful motivator or "certified" trainer is not necessarily qualified to facilitate deep emotional change in individuals and groups. Ask for credentials. It is always preferable that any intensive emotional program be facilitated by at least one experienced and licensed clinical psychotherapist.
Are you making an informed decision?
Anytime you consider a life-altering decision, be sure you think through its consequences. Base your decision on as much information as you can reasonably acquire. Just as you would engage in research and soul-searching prior to getting married, starting a new career, having a child or making a big investment, apply that same approach to decisions about your personal growth. Representatives of some programs are secretive about the processes they employ; they expect participants to pay up front and attend the program without asking probing questions. They may even turn reasonable questions against prospective participants, challenging them to "get out of their head" and "trust the process." In reality, you’ll find it much easier to trust a process when your questions are met with direct, responsive answers.
MORE QUESTIONS
Questions to Help the Assessment Process
1. Who is the leader?
What are his/her background and qualifications?
Have you relied solely on trust that all of the information you were given is true or have you done independent investigation?
Do you feel pressure to accept and not question at all?
Is it possible that there are misrepresentations or falsehoods?
Is there external corroboration for extraordinary claims of accomplishment or are they simply his/her say-so?
If "miracles" have been performed, can they be replicated under open observation or even under scientific conditions?
Are there other explanations for the "miracles," such as magic tricks, hypnosis, etc.?
If there is a former leader or member, have you sought him or her out to hear for yourself critical information? If not, are you afraid to trust your ability to discern the truthfulness of what you learn?
If you find yourself saying that you don't care if there are major deceptions, ask yourself if you knew this information before you became involved, would you have even bothered to make a commitment of time and money?
2. Are there exclusive claims made to wisdom, knowledge, love, and truth? If so, the burden of proof is on the leader to demonstrate his or her superiority, not on members to disprove it. A truly "developed" spiritual being exudes love, compassion, and humility. Any person who claims to be "superior" but does not practice what they preach is of questionable character. There is never incongruency between words and deeds. A person who uses fear and phobia indoctrination to control followers demonstrates insecurity and lack of spiritual maturity.
3. Is total submission and obedience required? Any relationship that demands giving up one's personal integrity and conscience is dangerous and leads to totalitarianism. Be wary of those who advocate "the ends justify the means," especially when it clearly serves their own self-interest. Also, make sure that your desire "to believe" doesn't simply activate the common psychological defense mechanisms: denial, rationalization, justification, and wishful thinking. If a doctrine is true or a person is truly spiritually advanced, they will stand up to the scrutiny of objective evaluation. If they do not prove themselves, they are probably not worthy of your commitment and devotion.
4. Does he/ she have a criminal record, a legacy of allegations against him/her or a history of misconduct? If there are allegations of misconduct against the leader, the responsible follower must seek out the negative information and the sources of that information to evaluate the truth. If a leader claims to be celibate and allegations are made that the leader engaged in inappropriate sex, this is an extreme violation of integrity. It must be investigated vigorously. It is never appropriate for teachers, therapists, or spiritual masters to take advantage of a power differential over followers. This is especially true in the area of sexuality. It is grossly unethical to engage in sexual relations with someone who has placed their trust in as a teacher/advisor/master. Many followers are incredibly vulnerable to this and unable to resist sexual intimacy. Anyone should be able to say "no."
Is he or she a "trust bandit," stealing hearts, souls, minds, bodies, and pocketbooks for his or her own ends?
5. Does the leader demonstrate psychological problems and awareness of their existence?
Does the leader have addictions to power, drugs, alcohol, sex, even television or shopping?
Does the leader have emotional outbursts?
Does the leader physically abuse followers?
Does the leader drive expensive cars and wear expensive clothes while extolling the virtues of renunciation?
Does the leader financially exploit followers by expecting them to live in poverty while he or she indulges in luxury?
Is the group or leader's driveway habitually filled with luxury cars while ordinary people find him or her inaccessible and unreachable?
Does the leader ever encourage deception or use deception as a "technique" to trick followers into so-called correct thinking and understanding?
Codependent behavior by a spiritual teacher should be a warning sign of danger. Codependency includes: obsessively trying to control others; allowing people to hurt and use them; lack of clear boundaries; being reactive, not proactive; tunnel visioned; obsessive worrying and denial; expectations of perfection and suppression of human needs. (Beattie, Beyond Codependency, Harper/Hazelden, 1989)
6. Are questions and doubts permitted within the organization?
A healthy spiritual environment must engage individual followers at
their level of experience and should encourage them to feel and think and therefore question their beliefs and exercise good decision-making. In this way, the follower can investigate, discriminate, and test the dogma and the environment they are being asked to accept, between what his or her personal issues are and what might be an unhealthy environment. If intense pressure is used to dissuade people who wish to talk with former members or critics, it is a clear sign of information control. Controlling information is one of the most essential components of mind control.
7. Is the organization open or closed?
Are there organizational secrets?
Are there "in" groups and "out" groups?
Are there restricted teachings for initiates only?
Are there secret texts and publications "for your eyes only"?
Is there real financial accountability?
If a group says that you can look at its accounting records, does it actually provide access?
The only way to know is to ask to see the records. If you are afraid to ask, what does this say about the atmosphere of the group?
8. What structural checks and balances exist within the organization to prevent abuse of power?
Are there divisive sectarian biases, even in the name of interdenominational ecumenicism and universality?
Is there an independent "ethics"committee to challenge and change policies of the group?
If there are abuses or injustices, what structure exists to correct them?
Can anyone legitimately question the actions of the leader without threat of emotional withdraw or fear of expulsion to "hell"?
Do the rich and powerful get preferential treatment?
Are "indulgences" (spiritual pardons) sold?
Is there a "code of silence" against unethical behavior of leaders?
These questions posed above come from Michael Langone - executive director of the International Cultic Studies Association, and Steve Hassan - well-known cult expert and exit counsellor.
Mankind project
Posted by:
twillia1
()
Date: August 23, 2006 04:15AM
[b:c7cb5edd0c]Brad[/b:c7cb5edd0c]
I hear that you are angry, and I have read the forum on the suicides - my point was never to say that you are not justified, nor that you are wrong for your experiences. My point has always been that we as human beings have a lot of control over what we get out of our experiences.
Before I went to my NWTA, I did all this research. I heard both sides of the story. I looked into "LGATs" and I was referred by a therapist who I trust. The end result of all that was, I trust myself to know my limitations and boundaries.
Are there people who are not aware of and who do not enforce their own boundaries? Absolutely! It has been proven that some people are more susceptible to brainwashing and mind control techniques than others. The article you posted about the Red Flags? Go through and read them - twice as many of those "flags" apply to modern religion as they do to the NWTA! Does that mean we should call every modern-day religion a cult or an LGAT?
I do not dispute that MKP is an LGAT - it is according to the definition that someone made up. I do not dispute that people have gone through the NWTA and had bad experiences - they have. What I dispute is the allegations and "spin" that this is a brainwashing and mind control cult. It is a structured way of a person looking at their life and seeing what (if anything) they want to change. If a person doesn't like it, they can leave! If I don't want to give money to it, I don't have to (and I don't, BTW) And I would be willing to bet that more people have killed themselves within two weeks of speaking to a priest than have killed themselves two weeks after a NWTA! Whatever the reason, those people [i:c7cb5edd0c]chose [/i:c7cb5edd0c]to end their lives. You may say that the priest and/or the NWTA put the gun in their hand, but what they did with it was of their own volition.
That is not meant to minimize the fathers'/partners'/families' pain - it is very real and I get that. And I am sad to hear that your girlfriend has had what sounds like a negative experience for both of you. With anything in life, results may vary. I was not promised anything from my NWTA. I was told that is is an opportunity to look at things in my life and how they are or are not working for me.
I guess my question is, what is it that you are looking for by posting here? I hear that you have had a less-than-satisfactory experience regarding LGATs - are you trying to prevent other people from taking them? And if so, how is that going to help your relationship with your girlfriend?
Quote
Many of us are very angry. I am sure many are angry at the insinuation that we don't want to see the facts as you put them. Rather judge your own experience and let others judge their own experiences.
I hear that you are angry, and I have read the forum on the suicides - my point was never to say that you are not justified, nor that you are wrong for your experiences. My point has always been that we as human beings have a lot of control over what we get out of our experiences.
Before I went to my NWTA, I did all this research. I heard both sides of the story. I looked into "LGATs" and I was referred by a therapist who I trust. The end result of all that was, I trust myself to know my limitations and boundaries.
Are there people who are not aware of and who do not enforce their own boundaries? Absolutely! It has been proven that some people are more susceptible to brainwashing and mind control techniques than others. The article you posted about the Red Flags? Go through and read them - twice as many of those "flags" apply to modern religion as they do to the NWTA! Does that mean we should call every modern-day religion a cult or an LGAT?
I do not dispute that MKP is an LGAT - it is according to the definition that someone made up. I do not dispute that people have gone through the NWTA and had bad experiences - they have. What I dispute is the allegations and "spin" that this is a brainwashing and mind control cult. It is a structured way of a person looking at their life and seeing what (if anything) they want to change. If a person doesn't like it, they can leave! If I don't want to give money to it, I don't have to (and I don't, BTW) And I would be willing to bet that more people have killed themselves within two weeks of speaking to a priest than have killed themselves two weeks after a NWTA! Whatever the reason, those people [i:c7cb5edd0c]chose [/i:c7cb5edd0c]to end their lives. You may say that the priest and/or the NWTA put the gun in their hand, but what they did with it was of their own volition.
That is not meant to minimize the fathers'/partners'/families' pain - it is very real and I get that. And I am sad to hear that your girlfriend has had what sounds like a negative experience for both of you. With anything in life, results may vary. I was not promised anything from my NWTA. I was told that is is an opportunity to look at things in my life and how they are or are not working for me.
I guess my question is, what is it that you are looking for by posting here? I hear that you have had a less-than-satisfactory experience regarding LGATs - are you trying to prevent other people from taking them? And if so, how is that going to help your relationship with your girlfriend?
Mankind project
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: August 23, 2006 05:12AM
twillia1:
You seem to be here as an apologist for MKP and acting in a manner that can be seen as a message board "troll."
See [en.wikipedia.org]
The excerpts from MKP's training manual demonstrate the manipulation that is recommended and a matter of design within MKP.
MKP is an LGAT and based upon its literature comes across rather badly.
Attempting to somehow place blame or responsibilty on MKP participants is not a meaningful response to the complaints.
The warning signs seem applicable to MKP.
You seem to be here as an apologist for MKP and acting in a manner that can be seen as a message board "troll."
See [en.wikipedia.org]
The excerpts from MKP's training manual demonstrate the manipulation that is recommended and a matter of design within MKP.
MKP is an LGAT and based upon its literature comes across rather badly.
Attempting to somehow place blame or responsibilty on MKP participants is not a meaningful response to the complaints.
The warning signs seem applicable to MKP.
Mankind project
Posted by:
twillia1
()
Date: August 23, 2006 09:27AM
[b:afab12e2a3]rrmoderator[/b:afab12e2a3]
Go back and read my posts... There are several things that MKP does [i:afab12e2a3]as an organization[/i:afab12e2a3] that I wholeheartedly disagree with.
I was under the impression that this was an open forum, with room for discussion on both sides of the issue. Apparently, I was wrong. And that is OK with me. My experience in life is that when I generate this strong of a response from people, it is normally because something fits for them, and they are unwilling to admit it.
Read my last post... I specifically say that it IS an LGAT based on the definition of such. As far as "coming across rather badly?" Well, yes, when you take excerpts completely out of context and put them in your own order, it [i:afab12e2a3]could[/i:afab12e2a3]appear that way, couldn't it? I can take excerpts from the president of the United States' speeches and mix them up to make it look like he wants to nuke the free world!
If this is a forum for all anti-MKPers to sit around and complain about how an LGAT "ruined their lives," and there is no room for any counter-points, then please, tell me and I will leave you all to slam MKP all you want!
So, moderator, I make you this challenge: Instead of sitting around making uninformed judgements about the NWTA, why not go through? At least then you can complain about something that you know about.
Otherwise, I believe it would be wise to at least consider that it can be a good thing for some people - and since that is the case, it would also be wise to allow counterpoints (or as you call them, "apologists") on the forum for balance.
Am I wrong?
Quote
You seem to be here as an apologist for MKP and acting in a manner that can be seen as a message board "troll."
Go back and read my posts... There are several things that MKP does [i:afab12e2a3]as an organization[/i:afab12e2a3] that I wholeheartedly disagree with.
I was under the impression that this was an open forum, with room for discussion on both sides of the issue. Apparently, I was wrong. And that is OK with me. My experience in life is that when I generate this strong of a response from people, it is normally because something fits for them, and they are unwilling to admit it.
Quote
MKP is an LGAT and based upon its literature comes across rather badly.
Read my last post... I specifically say that it IS an LGAT based on the definition of such. As far as "coming across rather badly?" Well, yes, when you take excerpts completely out of context and put them in your own order, it [i:afab12e2a3]could[/i:afab12e2a3]appear that way, couldn't it? I can take excerpts from the president of the United States' speeches and mix them up to make it look like he wants to nuke the free world!
If this is a forum for all anti-MKPers to sit around and complain about how an LGAT "ruined their lives," and there is no room for any counter-points, then please, tell me and I will leave you all to slam MKP all you want!
So, moderator, I make you this challenge: Instead of sitting around making uninformed judgements about the NWTA, why not go through? At least then you can complain about something that you know about.
Otherwise, I believe it would be wise to at least consider that it can be a good thing for some people - and since that is the case, it would also be wise to allow counterpoints (or as you call them, "apologists") on the forum for balance.
Am I wrong?
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.