I'm writing this post to point out to you that, while you always thank "anti-MKPers" for their posts, you never thank me for mine. In fact, my last was not even replied to by any of you. Normally, in a debate, when the opposite side has no comeback, it's a win! :wink:

It is very easy to look at only one side of things - the side you want to look at. It is much more difficult to see the other side. From reading all these posts, I have heard people from both "sides" of the discussion attempt to "see" your side of things, and yet, I see no attempt in the other direction.

I forget each of your individual experiences right at this moment; I will say that a man (including your husbands and/or SOs) got exactly out of thr weekend what they chose to get out of it, and perhaps the fact that yours didn't get what you hoped for has you angry? I'm just thinking out loud here.

Good to here that you seen this warrior thing for what it really is! A Joke!
I liked the fact that you actually told it the way you seen it and did not sugar coat it! Great Information!

Five years ago I began seeing a therapist (who specializes in gay and lesbian issues) about self esteem and self acceptance issues. She immediately began pushing the New Warriors group. In subsequent sessions she really stepped up the pressure until I finally relented and went to the local group's informational meeting.

Even though it appeared to be a cookout, I was extremely uncomfortable. I had a nagging feeling that something was wrong from the time that my therapist first mentioned it and then refused to answer any questions (do initiates sit around naked holding hands, etc.). I am somewhat frigid, I admit, and do not like being touched by strangers and am not comfortable with public nudity (my own or anyone else's). Call me uptight, but it just is not my thing. Despite my overwhelming discomfort with such things, the therapist still pushed me to go! It still makes me angry!

Anyway, the meeting was way too touch-feely. Members, both gay and straight, were far too familiar with each other. There was more hugging, hand holding, cuddling, etc. than I have ever seen in a gay bar! But what was really disconcerting was the party line answers I got to all of my questions. There was just something amiss, in a Stepford Wives sort of way.

Finally, the group leader brought out a sword and the members seemed to touch it so reverantly that I got the creeps. They started talking about those issues and insecurities that all men, gay and straight, share, and I started getting angry. These people were preying on vulnerable men who were struggling with real issues. Whether it was my terminal cynicism or my disgust that saved me, I don't know, but I quietly departed.

Even though I am not a terribly religious person, the next day I skipped my therapy appointment and went to see my priest. Having been a psychotherapist before becoming an Episcopal priest, she was concerned and asked that I not have any contact with the group or the therapist until she did some research. She got back to me immediately, advised me to cut ties with the therapist and anyone in the group, and to come in for a Reconciliation of the Penitent rite. I was a little surprised, as this rite, in my experience, is generally used for deathbed confessions or other extremely serious times. She advised me that NW was a therapy cult and that it is fundamentally incompatible with Christianity, even Anglicanism, which tends to be very liberal.

The rite did bring me some peace, but it was over 4 1/2 years before I built up my faith in the psychotherapy profession to try another therapist. He thought that posting here would be cathartic and help others, and I hope it does. I have learned that self acceptance comes from work with a reputable therapist, a community of faith, a support group of friends of family, or a combination of these things.

I apologize if my post is inappropriate to this forum. It was difficult for me to do and is kindly meant. If one person is saved from this group, I will consider it worth exposing these personal issues.

Thanks.

Well done!

We need people like you on these boards sharing your story. I hope doing so proves to be cathartic for you.

There are many dangerous groups out there and MKP is but one of many similar 'human potential' organisations that can cause severe trauma. Your trauma has lasted five years, so I rest my case in saying this.

Everything of the best and thanks for sharing your story. Someone, somewhere, will benefit from it.

Twillia wrote that no one has thanked him or responded to his posts.

I am only responding because you included me in your subject line. I believe if you look back I posted a welcome and hoped we would all learn from each other after your first or second post. If you need the words thank you, then "thank you for posting". I am not using this board to debate.(although some clearly do) If you were to look back through my posts you would see I have never tried to deny that someone who said they had a positive experience didn't have a positive experience. Sounds like you had a great experience and want to share it with others. Nothing wrong with that, but also nothing wrong with people who've had a bad experience wanting to express their feelings.

Quote

In fact, my last was not even replied to by any of you. Normally, in a debate, when the opposite side has no comeback, it's a win!

Or...... nobody felt that it was significant enough to reply to?

Thank you for debating with us, and, if you read all previous posts, you will find in many places where MKPers have been thanked for their postings.

Quote

It is very easy to look at only one side of things - the side you want to look at. It is much more difficult to see the other side. From reading all these posts, I have heard people from both "sides" of the discussion attempt to "see" your side of things, and yet, I see no attempt in the other direction.

Or, those of us against MKP have researched the group after having bad experiences and made an informed, honest decision about MKP.

Quote

I hear that you found parts of the weekend amusing, which is ironic, because I find all the talk of MKP promoting homosexuality to be just as amusing. You mentioned that you are athletic, which leads me to believe that growing up, you probably showered (for instance) nude in front of other men? Do you find that equally offensive? Or were you the boy who didn't want to take his shorts off, or wore a bathing suit to shower? Was your school promoting homosexuality?

I don't think that athletes in school were made to "watch" a man shower and count for him. I do not think that in athletics, they danced nude with each other, shaking their "manliness" around. Are you shaming/guilting this man? I thought that was not the MKP way? Completely different from accountability I believe. Some may find parts of the weekend "amusing", but I find it sad that men go through this, and do not realize that the techniques being used are LGAT and cult like, with dangerous psychology thrown in as "education". The omission of lies etc during recruitment are also far from being honest and I feel that to use such needs its own [b:88414a6946]accountability[/b:88414a6946].

Quote
amr123
Five years ago I began seeing a therapist (who specializes in gay and lesbian issues) about self esteem and self acceptance issues. She immediately began pushing the New Warriors group. In subsequent sessions she really stepped up the pressure until I finally relented and went to the local group's informational meeting.

Even though it appeared to be a cookout, I was extremely uncomfortable. I had a nagging feeling that something was wrong from the time that my therapist first mentioned it and then refused to answer any questions (do initiates sit around naked holding hands, etc.). I am somewhat frigid, I admit, and do not like being touched by strangers and am not comfortable with public nudity (my own or anyone else's). Call me uptight, but it just is not my thing. Despite my overwhelming discomfort with such things, the therapist still pushed me to go! It still makes me angry!

Anyway, the meeting was way too touch-feely. Members, both gay and straight, were far too familiar with each other. There was more hugging, hand holding, cuddling, etc. than I have ever seen in a gay bar! But what was really disconcerting was the party line answers I got to all of my questions. There was just something amiss, in a Stepford Wives sort of way.

Finally, the group leader brought out a sword and the members seemed to touch it so reverantly that I got the creeps. They started talking about those issues and insecurities that all men, gay and straight, share, and I started getting angry. These people were preying on vulnerable men who were struggling with real issues. Whether it was my terminal cynicism or my disgust that saved me, I don't know, but I quietly departed.

Even though I am not a terribly religious person, the next day I skipped my therapy appointment and went to see my priest. Having been a psychotherapist before becoming an Episcopal priest, she was concerned and asked that I not have any contact with the group or the therapist until she did some research. She got back to me immediately, advised me to cut ties with the therapist and anyone in the group, and to come in for a Reconciliation of the Penitent rite. I was a little surprised, as this rite, in my experience, is generally used for deathbed confessions or other extremely serious times. She advised me that NW was a therapy cult and that it is fundamentally incompatible with Christianity, even Anglicanism, which tends to be very liberal.

The rite did bring me some peace, but it was over 4 1/2 years before I built up my faith in the psychotherapy profession to try another therapist. He thought that posting here would be cathartic and help others, and I hope it does. I have learned that self acceptance comes from work with a reputable therapist, a community of faith, a support group of friends of family, or a combination of these things.

I apologize if my post is inappropriate to this forum. It was difficult for me to do and is kindly meant. If one person is saved from this group, I will consider it worth exposing these personal issues.

Thanks.

You are definitely NOT out of line by posting. I feel your therapist was "out of integrity".

First, thanks to Brad69 and Ginah for the supportive responses!

Next, I had some comments about my particular experience that I thought might add to the discussion, as I can comment as a gay man.

First, however, I should mention that I have been fortunate in that I never succumbed to the typical gay demons: alcohol/drug abuse and promiscuity. In my younger days I did go out a great deal, usually just to hang out with my friends and dance, and I know that I am lucky that I escaped the pitfalls that ensnare so many of us. Anyway, the reason I mention this is that the group leader really focused on those issues during the meeting I attended, and I know that many gay men struggle with substance and sexual addictions. That is the first thing I found reprehensible because people who are looking for a way out are particularly vulnerable to strong influences which promise to lead them out of bad places. In short, I think that, because these problems are more prominent in the gay community than they are in the population at large, that MKP is really shooting fish in a barrel (i.e. going after the easy marks).

Another thing that I found upsetting was the presence of a young man who had severe physical and moderate mental handicaps. A friend of mine had tried to help this guy, so I knew who he was when I saw him at the meeting. My friend always said that "Allen" (not his real name) was a 5 time minority: black, gay, handicapped, alcoholic and sex addict. I always thought he desperately needed to be in a group home of some sort as he kept getting arrested for soliciting and drunkeness (one of his problems was that he had little to no impulse control). Unfortunately, his abusive fundamentalist grandmother, with whom he lived, would not let him live elsewhere because she depended on his disability check. Anyway, I was really disturbed that Allen had joined this group because I don't believe that informed consent was possible. It also confirmed my suspiscion that MKP seeks out the most vulnerable to indoctrinate.

Finally, something that still puzzles me is why the secrecy surrounding the weekend if there is nothing untoward happening. The activities that I gleaned from my priest and from this board are frightening as they are definitely variations of tactics used in mind control/brainwashing (about which, I admit, I only know the little that I remember from freshman psych). Next, something I wonder about is what is the big revelation that happens at the end of the weekend? I believe it is just another brainwashing tactic, but don't know what it is or what purpose it serves. Finally, what does MKP hope to accomplish by drawing in all these people? Is it just the financial gain, or is there something else?

Thanks again for letting me participate!

I found this on one of the yahoo groups that Ivy was talking about. I find the "toilet seat" one interesting as some MKPers have stated that it is "just an example". The following Guys rules, show no respect for women, and in fact, just the opposite. Many of these show no movement towards healthy relationships, and in fact, show movement towards moving women to being "slaves" again. They seem to indicate that a womans emotions and point of views are unimportant. Is this how MKP shows they are not anti woman? or anti marriage? These following statements seem to underhandedly (psychologically) move men towards seeing women as non important.

Men-
I think that these rules about men can be shared with our wives
to help them understand us better...

The Guys' Rules­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­
At last a guy has taken the time to write this all down

Finally , the guys' side of the story.
(I must admit, it's pretty good.)
We always hear " the rules"
From the female side.

Now here are the rules from the male side.
These are our rules!
Please note... these are all numbered "1"
ON PURPOSE!

1. Men are NOT mind readers.

1. Learn to work the toilet seat.
You're a big girl. If it's up, put it down.
We need it up, you need it down.
You don't hear us complaining about you leaving it down.

1. Sunday sports. It's like the full moon
or the changing of the tides.
Let it be.

1. Shopping is NOT a sport.
And no, we are never going to think of it that way.

1. Crying is blackmail.

1. Ask for what you want.
Let us be clear on this one:
Subtle hints do not work!
Strong hints do not work!
Obvious hints do not work!
Just say it!

1. Yes and No are perfectly acceptable answers to almost every question.

1. Come to us with a problem only if you want help solving it. That's
what we do.
Sympathy is what your girlfriends are for.

1. A headache that lasts for 17 months is a Problem.

See a doctor.

1. Anything we said 6 months ago is inadmissible in an argument.
In fact, all comments become null and void after 7 Days.

1. If you won't dress like the Victoria's Secret girls, don't Expect
us to act like soap opera guys.

1. If you think you're fat, you probably are.
Don't ask us.

1. If something we said can be interpreted two ways and one of them
makes you sad or angry, then we meant the other one

1. You can either ask us to do something
Or tell us how you want it done.
Not both.
If you already know best how to do it, just do it yourself.

1. Whenever possible, Please say whatever you have to say du ring
commercials.

1. Christopher Columbus did NOT need directions and neither do we.

1. ALL men see in only 16 colors, like Windows default settings.
Peach, for example, is a fruit, not A colo r. Pumpkin is also a fruit.
We have no idea what mauve is.

1. If it itches, it will be scratched.
We do that.

1. If we ask what is wrong and you say "nothing," We will act like
nothing's wrong.
We know you are lying, but it is just not worth the hassle, besides we
know you will bring it up again later.

1. If you ask a question you don't want an answer to,! Expect an
answer you don't want to hear.

1. When we have to go somewhere, absolutely anything you wear is
fine... Really .

1. Don't ask us what we're thinking about unless you are prepare d to
discuss such topics as baseball, the shotgun formation,
or golf.

1. You have enough clothes.

1. You have too many shoes.

1. I am in shape. Round IS a shape!

1. Thank you for reading this.
Yes, I know, I have to sleep on the couch tonight;

But did you know men really don't mind that? It's like camping.

Gary

Twillia:

Regarding my integrity; it’s true; I had to sign a confidentiality agreement before I went to MPK. I fully anticipated that having my integrity called into question would be the first response from any pro-MPK poster here- (interesting how questioning someone’s “integrity” is always so high up on the LGAT vocabulary list… it seems like it’s always their third word in every sentence… but anyway…)

But in regarding my integrity, while I did sign the agreement- that doesn’t address the bigger picture- the story of [i:2039c2e3a8]Antigone[/i:2039c2e3a8] comes to mind here- After witnessing the BS first-hand, after seeing that one guy become mentally broken/possibly suicidal, after the attempted intimidation, after the sleep-depravation, after being only know as “number 16” for the first 24 hours, after the forced group homoeroticism, after the barrage of yelling to break me down, and the resulting insults because I refused, [b:2039c2e3a8]to NOT SPEAK UP would be out of Integrity!![/b:2039c2e3a8]

Also regarding the LGAT vocabulary list—from your post to me: “that is also the piece where you are told that you will get exactly out of the weekend what you put into it.” How many times to LGAT groups say that, “[i:2039c2e3a8]if you don’t “get it,” it’s your fault, not ours[/i:2039c2e3a8]”. Between this quote and your comment in one of your previous posts about, “[i:2039c2e3a8]I have learned to stop using my head and start listening to my heart[/i:2039c2e3a8]”- it sounds to me that you too are deeply mired in the LGAT group-speak. Why do all talk the same, have the same replies to everything? Doesn’t that ignite some warning light for you??

Of note: the whole idea of ‘listening to some other organ other than your brain” -that’s referred to as “anti-intellectualism”—it’s one of the main tools fascists use it to control people-- keep them from thinking! -- It worked amazingly well for Hitler- he kept people concentrated on their ‘gut’ feeling, as opposed to utilizing any brain matter… But keep an eye out for that sort of line; it too should ignite a warning light in you.

Now- regarding your whole locker room analogy: I thought Ginah did a fine job rebuking you on that point but let me add that It’s all about the intention- at MPK did we get naked to take showers after athletics? No. We got naked, multiple times, because we, in our disoriented sleep-deprived state, were told to do so by the instructors. That’s not normal looker room showering, that’s just weird. And if you truly find, “[i:2039c2e3a8]talk of MKP promoting homosexuality to be.. amusing[/i:2039c2e3a8]” then I suggest that you re-learn to use your head.