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rrmoderator
It sounds like I-group for many of its participants has become a substitute for professional counseling with a licensed therapist and/or a therapy support group faciitated by a trained professional.

I would agree with that statement completely. At least such is my opinion.
I *think* (opinion again) that MKP would argue that leaders are trained. Based on my experience I'd say that some leaders are probably more effective (in context) than counselors with professional degrees. Long term impact, I really have no idea. It's also worth considering that the MKP experience is limited in scope and only seems to perscribe to a specific type of what I see as "therapy". If a man doesn't react to that therapy very well, there aren't a lot of other options. MKP is going to continue with the "program". The fact is that you've got "unlicensed" professionals doing what I see as some form of theapy... I'm not saying that it doesn't work or that it is helpful/harmful to everyone.

I-Group.. Well, the leaders are going to be less experienced. I don't think that every I-group is the same. You could look at it as another form of unlicensed group therapy... Alternately you could say that it's just a group of guys focused on keeping each other accountable. I suppose it depends on the men, their dynamic, and the context.

Ivy,
What questions do you want answered? (assuming I could answer them)
Sorry, I don't know divorce statistics for you or how many men are homosexual. You can demand answers to those questions until you're blue in the face. I think you won't get them because the statistics aren't there.

You can't expect I-group forums to be open, any more than I would expect you to turn over your tax return and suggest that you simply change your name and social security number. If I was told that an I-group forum was open to the public, I'd be more hesitant about what I post on it regardless of what names are being used. I've not no problem with you demanding transparency from MKP, but I'd suggest that those demands get used with a reasonable set of circumstances. What 2 sets of rules are you refering to?

dukeoswald:

MKP is not a meaningful substitute for professionally trained counselors that are licensed, regulated and accountable to state and professional bodies and associations.

It seems like a senseless risk to put anyone through MKP.

The much more safe and viable option would be seeking help through a counseling professional or professinally led support group recommended by your doctor, local community services etc.

Your subjective "experience" and/or opinion regarding MKP is no substitute for credentials and meaningful accountability.

Bottom line--MKP has all the characteristics and potentioal for problems as other LGATs. It's staff are simply not qualified to deal the psychological or emotional consequences that their programs may produce.

Anyone would be safer and better served by a clinical psychologist, a support group led by a qualified counselor or a seminar/workshop led by helping professionals.

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rrmoderator
It sounds like I-group for many of its participants has become a substitute for professional counseling with a licensed therapist and/or a therapy support group faciitated by a trained professional.

When people use professionals as opposed to an LGAT like MKP they have some assurances concerning leaders regarding education, experience and ethics pertaining to enforced accountability through boards, licensing bodies etc.

Also there is enforced confidentiality.

Agreed. in my opinion I-Group should SUPPLEMENT professional counseling for those who NEED it, not replace it. The same could be said for AA (a form of counseling, enforced confidentiality). None of these groups are professionals and they should be VERY clear on that.

My counselor was all for the MKP weekend and the whole 'coming of age' and 'getting in touch with the innner man' concepts. I told her all about the weekend aftewards and got some raised eyebrows and a fews snickers, but she had no significant issues. In her opinion the change in environment and the whole 'brotherhood' that is an attempt at being loving with other men (that is not GAY) is lacking in our society.

Now, she is a well respected MFCC/ Drug / Alcohol counselor. She had never heard of MKP until I went and she has seen the damage that SOME AA groups and other self help groups do to their members by their 'controlling' attitudes.

I have discusssed the 'brainwashing' with her in detail and she thinks that only the men who are really emotionally immature and weak could possibly become 'owned' by the group. Generally it's no different than marines boot camp. actually boot camp really DOES have enough time to brainwash you.

Now, on the other hand the Yahoo group for the people 'hurt' by MKP is in itself a form of 'group therapy'. Her observation was quite simple: What does that group actually DO to 'help' the members who were 'hurt by MKP?' From the postings it appears that what they do is keep the wound open and cultivate the anger and hatred. Why? To feed the needs of the moderator who is the most vocal anti-MKP person?

It sure does NOT heal their wounds in any way at all. This should be self evident by the sheer outpouring of anger and hate that comes from SOME of those members when they post there, and when they post HERE.

For someone who has truly been hurt, this is not a method of healing their woulds. It just keeps it going....

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rrmoderator
MKP is not a meaningful substitute for professionally trained counselors that are licensed, regulated and accountable to state and professional bodies and associations.

It seems like a senseless risk to put anyone through MKP.

The much more safe and viable option would be seeking help through a counseling professional or professinally led support group recommended by your doctor, local community services etc.

Your subjective "experience" and/or opinion regarding MKP is no substitute for credentials and meaningful accountability.

Bottom line--MKP has all the characteristics and potentioal for problems as other LGATs. It's staff are simply not qualified to deal the psychological or emotional consequences that their programs may produce.

Anyone would be safer and better served by a clinical psychologist, a support group led by a qualified counselor or a seminar/workshop led by helping professionals.

Ok rrmod, you've made points that in principle many of us can agree with. I know I can. And they are all based on the POTENTIAL for abuse and emotional damage. Fair enough.

So, in your educated opinion what SHOULD MKP do to continue their work which doesn't harm the MAJORITY of the participants and still be able to have that 'safety' net for the people who are more fragile?

Since we agree that they are not a cult, then that implies that people are there voluntarily and can leave any time without repercussions or fears they will be stalked or abused. So now it really comes down to us not agreeing that the methodology MKP uses to 'help' their members is or isn't perfectly 'safe' or healthy for ALL men who join.

So, what is the minimum changes they should do to improve this situation, in your opinion of course?

Oh, one other thought. Over the past many years I've had several counselors. At least one of them was a total waste of time and in some ways she hurt me more than she helped me. So, just because someone has 'credentials' doesn't mean a thing to me. Not an 'excuse' for MKP but just an observation.

thanks,

frank

Based upon your comments and others here along with the materials posted that expose the manipulative techniques of MKP I would not recommend MKP to anyone.

It appears to be a potentially unsafe and destructive program.

I would not suggest anything other than, in my opinion it's a mistake to be associated with MKP.

LGATs are just too risky and lack any accountability.

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I-Group should SUPPLEMENT professional counseling for those who NEED it,

I-Group and MKP is not qualified to supplement anything, nor to say who needs what.

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rrmoderator
Based upon your comments and others here along with the materials posted that expose the manipulative techniques of MKP I would not recommend MKP to anyone.

It appears to be a potentially unsafe and destructive program.

I would not suggest anything other than, in my opinion it's a mistake to be associated with MKP.

LGATs are just too risky and lack any accountability.

OK, thanks. I asked for your opinion and I got it. I respect that.

frank-d:

Please don't cut and paste long posts from other discussion groups here.

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Ivy
I agree with the mod. they have 2 sets of rules, come to forums like this! But keep theirs Closed!!! They could use different names??? It's a double standard thing! To be fair!
Ivy

How is this 'agreeing' wit the mod? He never said there were two sets of rules or they had 'double standards'.

As far as the comment that they Have 'double standards', how is that so? Their I-GROUPS are not 'open' for discussion because they are only for the members of THEIR SPECIFIC I-GROUP, where the members should have some assurance that what they discuss WILL stay in the group.

Why can't YOU join the 'dallas freemasons discussion group'? Because it's FOR those people only!

And conversely the 'ex_mkp' group has every right to be 'private' for ex members who have issues with MKP. The only argument I have is that if they are going to ALLOW MKP members then they should ALLOW the debate to be open - not censored. You cannot have it both ways.

Should there be a GENERAL discussion group for MKP and non-mkp people to join? Sure! The I-Groups you listed are NOT that.

All Therapy, just read the first page of the guts manual! OVERVIEW 4
A) GUTS 5
B) SUB-PERSONALITIES 6
C) INNER WORLD 8
D) TERMINOLOGY 11
E) RE-ACTION PROCESS 12
F) HEALING PROCESS 14
G) WARRIOR WORK 16
H) WARRIOR PSYCHOLOGY 17
I) INTENTION OF GUTS 18
J) MAGIC OF GUTS 19
K) YOU THE GUTS FACILITATOR 20
L) GUIDELINES / SUGGESTIONS 20
M) SAFETY 21
ACTIVE LISTENING 22
A) PACING 25
B) MIRRORING 25
C) PRODUCTIVE QUESTIONS / COMMENTS 26
D) NON PRODUCTIVE QUESTIONS / COMMENTS 28
E) ACTIVE LISTENING: OPENING EXAMPLE 30
F) CONFRONTING VS. PACING 31
RESISTANCE 33
TRANCE WORK

What makes MKP Educational instead of Therapeutic? Are their certain guidlines that has to be followed to be regarded as Therapeutic instead of Educational? Is it just MKP making that judgement? I would be interested in further understanding the distinction between the two. Especially, as for me, when I read their manuals it points me in the direction of MKP being Therapeutic more than Educational.
Thank You