I have to weigh in here. I, too, monitor the other group and it is heavily "moderated".

Ivy - you mentioned that every time one of the pro-MKP folks came close to giving you an answer, they "ran away."

I've been in touch privately with PlaintinumWeasel the most recent seemingly pro-MKP person to disappear from the yahoo group. First his posts were put on moderation based on something the moderator heard from someone who had exchanged emails with PW. As well, according to him, his posts were heavily censored. Then he was unsubscribed from the group. I assure you, he didn't run away.

What he [b:abbc23d2ce]did [/b:abbc23d2ce]do was disagree with the prevailing opinion of [i:abbc23d2ce]all-mkp-bad-all-the-time.[/i:abbc23d2ce] What he asked for - and anyone can go back and read his posts - was that there be room for some balance in what was being presented. The tone of his messages were generally respectful and, frequently, he found himself being called a liar as well as having any experience he might have add - positive or negative - invalidated.

Anyone joining the yahoo group will find that is almost wholly weighted to anti-mkp and the moderator through all the means at his disposal keeps it that way. There are also several members who generally go on the attack at the first sign that a poster isn't following the party line. Before anyone calls me a liar, I invite you to join the group and read the messages. The truth is there and there is no need to take what I'm saying on any faith. That's the great thing about the net...stuff doesn't go away.

Go and see.

I posted there once in what I considered to be a very reasonable tone and the responses were such that I realized that to respond in any way was perhaps to find myself "running away" should I care to disagree. I enjoy the yahoo group - it is sometimes very informative - and didn't want to get unsubscribed for having a different opinion.

In civilized debate, discussion, and argument, there has to be room for both opposing and agreeing voices. If there isn't, it's a speech, not a dicussion. There's a great deal of speechifyin' going on in that group. If that is how the moderator wishes it, he needs to say it so that those who might disagree will simply move along and leave his group inviolate.

I do think our friend at ex-mkp yahoo is providing a service to people who have come into contact with and been injured or harmed in some way by MKP. However, the group slants so heavily in one direction that it looks more like a big pity party than a forum for the exchange of information and support which I truly think was the original intent.


Firethorne
(not an "MKP" name...it's just a bush and I thought it sounded pretty)

I posted this link to a research paper several months ago. I would be interested in your take on the quality of the research and conclusions if you have time to read it

[72.14.203.104]

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Anidawehi
I think you make some good points in your responses, and I agree with many of your points, but perhaps I could tease out a few distinctions. I think that the money that certain groups like the Girl Scouts is "precoccupied" with making is primarily so the group can continue to run its functions (e.g., food & lodging for girl scout camp) is different that the money that some chapters of the mkp is making.

Yeah, Girl Scouts was all I could think of at the time of writing. I am only trying to point out that we need to properly define what 'preoccupied' means. As far as I know there is no 'Vice President in charge of getting men to give money'. so, I would argue that they NEED to raise money but it is not the focus or purpose of the organization - that's all.

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I agree that all organizations are concerned with bringing in new members, as it is hard to keep the organization going without them. I was just pointing out that mkp is no exception. One thing to remember, though, is that most other organizations are more upfront about what they are all about BEFORE initiates pay to become members.

Yeah, that's one of the more difficult arguments to resolve, at least for me. Here is what I think: On the one hand MKP wants to help men with their weekend warrior thing. On the other hand their weekend warrior thing has in it some aspects that AMERICANS find uncomfortable. Mostly the nudity.

If I were to say to you "You'll sit in the nude and have emotional discussions with other men" you would probably feel it is too weird for your taste AS AN AMERICAN. If I were to go to Europe - or to a nudist camp and say the same thing you'd be likely to think it is a good idea.

And since I am (slightly) prudish I WOULD NOT have gone because, well I'm prudish. :oops:

But that only addresses MY view on the weekend stuff others consider to be weird. I can understand why MKP feels they have to keep it 'low key' so that they can GET us amreican men who have issues with emotions and our bodies to actually GO and take that leap of faith, that risk.

So, as far as the weekend 'secrecy' I can understand it UP TO A POINT. I think they SHOULD tell people there are group discusssions and workshops and that you will be challenged to reexamine your identity through a series of identity building exercises.

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Now, in the groups I could see the 'groupthink' attitude but I would ask "if you were a member of any other 'club' (Knights of Columbus, Freemasons) wouldn't THEY have their own 'groupthink? If you started to oppose their ideals and traditions you'd be disliked too.

Just because some groups are worse (or other groups do it too), it doesn't make the fact that the mkp does it too okay IMO. This still affects independent logical reasoning and coersion is one of the weapons they use to do it.

OUr discussion is about MKP as an LGAT, and is it a cult? So, my examples of other groups 'doing it' is meant to point out that these 'groupthink' attitudes are a common theme among groups of many types and isn't enough to call them a 'cult'. Like I said before, I'll take the LGAT description as a 60% - 80% 'description' of MKP but I think some of the talking points used to describe LGATs are not as strong as others when it comes to MKP.

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And just because other "special groups" do, does it make it okay that mkp does too? I thought their website also says that is is inclusive to other religions, races, sexual preferences, etc. . . . BUT only if you are one of the chosen ones who "get it?" Perhaps they should add that. We see how some pro-MKP leaders treat ex-MKP'ers on these online discussion boards when they disagree. Certainly not like "brothers." But then again, I also admit that some ex-MKP'ers don't treat the pro-MKP'ers with respect either.

Yes, the 'respect' level goes down after the 'break up'. Neither side is very tolerant of the other but couldn't that be because the 'ex-mkp' person is usually unhappy with MKP, and the 'pro-mkp' person is not, so they feel like they are opponants? Just a thought.

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ok, now I have been to 'be your own businessman' seminars and other seminars where they are teaching you new ways of thinking and problem solving. They all tell you that 'You are the ones who get it'. Why is that bad? We do 'get it' because we've seen a part of ourselves that most men never see.

I see a pattern here with your thinkning, and I never said that other groups don't exhibit some of these same behaviors. It's just that this group is specifically concerned with MKP on this thread. So that is what I have been focusing my analysis on. But I will say again that professional seminars really aren't the same thing, as leading professional in the field are what's expected at such seminars--and we expect to pay such specialists what they are worth and we have no expectations of continuing to go to other seminars led by the same professional and to hang out with primarily others who have also attended the seminars.

Ok, my example was an attempt to use an 'abstract' comparison - there are many organizations who have guest speakers or facilitators that are 'KNOWLEDGABLE' and are paid to speak. And that is the point I am making, that it isn't 'unusual'. ok? :)

And your comment about ' we have no expectations of continuing to go to other seminars led by the same professional and to hang out with primarily others who have also attended the seminars.' , I say 'in general, no'. But there will always be groups of people who think alike and go to the same kinds of 'seminars' and hang out together. I call one such group 'progresssives'or 'leftists'. ;)

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And the professionals at these seminars certainly don't make their participants gets naked in order to "get it"--nor sign confidentiality agreements about what goes on in those seminars. And the professionals are just that . . . professionals, certified in whatever their field may be by a host of their colleagues who are also certified. The people running these MKP weekends may or may not be certified or licensed in counseling or education.

Nobady _makes_ you get 'naked'. The whole 'nakedness is a big deal in all these discussions. I do agree with you that it is not 'the norm'. It surely is the focus of the opposition to MKP.

The certified / licensed counselors argument is something I think they should do more with AT THE WEEKEND and other times. I think there are going to be some people who are in an emotioanlly fragile time in their lives and the NWTA could be more than they can handle. When I went I was under the impression that they do have some kind of staff person there with some real training. I recall talking to a staff person at the dinner who was telling us the kind of costs they incur with insurance, licensing and other fees which included some special staff.

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Which brings me to another point. One of the issues I see is that the REALLY hurting or messed up men who go to the weekend will walk out with friends where there were none before. SOme people would see that as them becoming obsessed with MKP and say 'they were brainwashed!'

I admit that many do make good friends in mkp, but others (like my hubby) were encouraged to focus primarily on his new mkp friends (because they were "enlightened" and of "integrity", unlike those on the "outside"). And once he decided not to go to staff this weekend, he has heard nothing back from these so-called friends. Now, when my friends dropped out of Girl Scouts, my sorority, college, my major, my teacher's association, or any other group I belonged to, I never stopped talking to them because of that.

Right, but you knew them because of a realationship through your child. If the only think you had in common was MKP then once you left you'd have nothing in common, right? I HAVE seen posts by others who had a friend they knew in MKP who they had gotten to be 'real' friends with and when they left mkp they still hung out. I think it really depends on the relationships you created while there, and how you left - angry or coordially. We don't know what happend in most cases.

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....Why would we deny him that? His life sucked before then. Surely therapy and anti-depressants were not working. I'm not saying he IS or IS NOT being 'controlled'. I'm just saying 'how can we make that conclusion with the evidence we've been presented with?'

First, I don't think that you can come to the conculsion that his meds were not working, as you don't know what he was taking or whether he was taking them as directed. And as for therapy, if you are not clicking with a therapist, you can tell them that and they are legally required to assist you in finding another if you need one (they don't shun you for your decision). But I do agree that some men are happier in their lives post joining mkp. I'm still not sure that the end justifies the means, expecially for those who are survivors of abuse. There are much more empowering ways of helping people through hard times available to MKP but they choose not to use them.

Oh come on, you're normally excellent debating skills got lost in the first part of your response.

Discounting whether or not I can 'tell' if his meds were not working in order to invalidate the rest of my statement? :) That's not a rebuttal to the real question of 'how can we say that someone whose life sucked before MKP is being harmed?". It takes the focus away from the actual question.

Later you do agree that some men are happier and raise the question 'does the end justify the means'. I would submit to you that, for the hypothetical man we are describing it does. He would say that if you asked him. Does that make him crazy or does it make us crazy for judging him? As for me, I'm not sure.

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hus, they justify some of the abusive activities via "the end justifies the means" mentality. And like many mkp'ers have said on these boards, they would probably not have gone to the weekend had they known about these processes/activities beforehand.

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I would not have gone. I would have thought they were silly or weird. But afterwards I was glad I went. I didn't like the few times my beliefs or attitude was 'challenged' but in hindsight it was like 'tough love'. Meaning their 'goal' wasn't to beat me up, it was to make me feel and think.

Then this proves that this is a problem (if you would not have gone). That constitutes COERSION, which is abusive at its core. And actually, their goal is not for you to think (please re-read the earlier posts with the MKP manual exerpts). They want you to feel but not have enough time to think about those feelings and what they mean to your life and your decisions about your life.

But who has the problem? Me because I find these things (nudity, talking about my feelings with other men, sitting in a sweat lodge) embarrasing? NObody 'coerced' me to go. I went because I was wanting to do something that was 'very different' and the people I spoke to who had gone (whom I respected) said it was, um, way different.

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If their goal was to BE abusive it would continue the whole weekend. It did not.

Actually, with all due respect, as someone who has been in an abusive relationship before and has witnessed many others who have been as well (not to mention talked with my hubby who studied abuse tactics in his graduate training), abuse is never constant. It is more difficult to keep someone in an abusive relationship if it is always abusive. It is the "honeymoon period" after the abuse that makes the one being abused still feel loved, albeit "tough love" sometimes. It can still be A goal of the organization without being the ONLY goal.

So, are you saying that the 'abusive' weekend ends with the 'honeymoon' and that is ENOUGH to keep someone 'hooked'? I felt the 'honeymoon' feelings after the weekend in the form of an emotional high. I went to the I-Group training for aout 3 weeks and then stopped because it was boring. I guess they didn't abuse me enough. ;)

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Speaking of research, perhaps mkp would not be so scrutinized if it could actually prove itself to be more helpful than harmful, just as prescription drugs and clinical therapy have to. They have PROVEN positive outcomes through rigorous studies. All the informations is shared and out on the table for discussion so it makes it more difficult to argue against the benefits of these therapies (and education for that matter).

I agree with this 100% and I think they could do this with an independent organization and still keep their 'process' private to the general public. I thought I saw a paper on thisn where they had interviewd a lot of MKP 'weekenders' and got their before and after impressions. SOme university study by a grad student.

As always, a pleasure to debate with you!

Not going to deep here! But I will say this, I am smarter than you think! I have the credentials to prove it! Just not the time to get to deep!

For the bit about the Moderating, I would have to say! That is why it is ex. group, just as it is mod. here and we lost RU?ing! Does the other groups on yahoo, just let you in? NO.... I can name about 30 closed I groups and then you will complain about being kicked out? Is just anybody let into the I yahoo, No, because they are monitored, here is an ex. you can get into these and read these group, because if you were a outsider they would know and boot you out! There is no more that about 25 men (2 merged) I group in most of these Austin warriors

LGIG

NJPiontmen

Band of Brothers

aol96mezun

midvalley warriors and ex-mkp ha


ex-Mkp just has to give folk the benefit of the doubt, because he cant go to the MKP site and look you up to see if your a MKP, or Ex.MKP



And the site where they ran away was not because the got booted! They were all runners on this site! EX. Bearsong

What most don't get is the EX_MKP is just that EX and if he is willing to let you in so be it! Do the MKP just let anybody in? How about a girl? Talk about being a hypocrite!

And I am still waiting for the answers, although I have yet to read feilds paper!


As for Nudity! I have no problem with that! Just when it is a bunch of old men doing it! Or if your married and failed to Mention it when you got home (failing to mention something like that is a lie) I wonder, let just say.... If your married, and your wife, tells you she is going on some kind of weekend trip, and oh by the way you cant go!!! (Because in the MKP) the have the ole "It a Man retreat" But lets say it a Male and Female retreat, yet only your wife is going! You find out that she was woke in the night to run around the woods naked, How would that site with you!!!!!! If you say, it would not bother you, then I guess I would have to say your a lier! Sorry!

And Yes most of the folks at EX site have been either lied!!!! to by the mkp, so they are hurt! And the MKP does practice group therapy! I am sill confused as to how you think it is all right? And when we get information we do share it, but if it is a bit pity party, why is ok for the MKP to do all there screaming and yelling (ex. when they revel there secrets and go threw the "I hate my wife, and then the next I group member is allowed to validate it, by saying "Yes F the Bitch and so on and so on..... " Why is that any different.....? The only difference is you paid to do so and we don't! "By the way.... I got the above for your's truly own manual .....I think it was the guts Manual?


Anyhow I will follow this up, I am off to bed before I start to blend my words!
Good Night, Ivy

Ivy,

I am sorry, I cannot force anyone to answer your questions.
Additionally, I fear that the [b:2d1e7079ad]vast majority[/b:2d1e7079ad] of people that are still involved in MKP wouldn't be able to give you the statistics that you're asking for... IE - "how many are gay?"

You've mentioned that many "disappear" - you might ask the moderator about why they disappear.. Most get their membership pulled due to posting things that go against the stated focus of the group.

I can tell you that they won't be removed from the mkpopen without provocation or by stating opinions. You may or may not have better luck getting answers there, but I'd suggest that you qualify your questions and recognize that such statistics aren't available to everyone and that people can't always tell you how others feel about an issue.

As long as people post within the rules there is no problem.

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Ivy
NO.... I can name about 30 closed I groups and then you will complain about being kicked out? Is just anybody let into the I yahoo, No, because they are monitored, here is an ex. you can get into these and read these group, because if you were a outsider they would know and boot you out! Good Night, Ivy

Ivy, to be fair:
Another reason why the I-groups might have moderated membership is that personal information on those men could be disclosed. Maybe a man is the head of a corporation, but struggles with pornography. Maybe he's a minister and has homosexual tendancies. Such things tend to get discussed in I-group and as such I'd think that it wouldn't be a good idea to disclose all of that information to the public.

No, you cant force them, but you were in a group, and I am sure you knew a lot about them. Answers can start with you and your group?

Oh by the way, the Mod did remove them, they just quite posting because they got backed into a corner.

It sounds like I-group for many of its participants has become a substitute for professional counseling with a licensed therapist and/or a therapy support group faciitated by a trained professional.

When people use professionals as opposed to an LGAT like MKP they have some assurances concerning leaders regarding education, experience and ethics pertaining to enforced accountability through boards, licensing bodies etc.

Also there is enforced confidentiality.

I agree with the mod. they have 2 sets of rules, come to forums like this! But keep theirs Closed!!! They could use different names??? It's a double standard thing! To be fair!
Ivy