Quote
Free_Thinker

I'm a little disturbed by all the horror stories on this forum about the MKP.

snip

I've tried reading as much as possible, but this thread is a bit too long to read everything!

snip

Yes, we're disturbed about the *reports* too, especially the ones about harm to those attending MKP events including suicide(s) and the abuse that women have received from their partners post-involvement. That's why the thread is 110 pages long, that's even as much as threads about that other evil abusive cult Scientology.

BTW You fail to explain why in the UK MKP got kicked out of using the Scout Camp in Stone, Staffordshire, when they found out what the men were really doing when running naked through their woods.

And it is obvious that you lack real concern about folks here otherwise you would have bothered to have read ALL posts, but you did not, you only read what you wanted to.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/02/2012 06:08PM by SeekingTruth.

Quote
SeekingTruth
Yes, we're disturbed about the *reports* too, especially the ones about harm to those attending MKP events including suicide(s) and the abuse that women have received from their partners post-involvement. That's why the thread is 110 pages long, that's even as much as threads about that other evil abusive cult Scientology.

BTW You fail to explain why in the UK MKP got kicked out of using the Scout Camp in Stone, Staffordshire, when they found out what the men were really doing when running naked through their woods.

And it is obvious that you lack real concern about folks here otherwise you would have bothered to have read ALL posts, but you did not, you only read what you wanted to.

I don't know what the exact circumstances are with the MKP group in the UK. But using Google I found a little bit about it. It seems related to an article in the Houston Press in 2007 that has been responded to by the MKP. Rather then quoting a lot, I give you the links;

Clarification from the scouting: [wthrockmorton.com]
The Houston Press Article: [www.houstonpress.com]
The MKP's reponse to it: [mankindproject.org]
And with regards to nudity and the 'the cock': [mankindproject.org]

It is a little unfair to say that I have a lack of real concern. I read a fair bit of the thread. I've read the posts from women who's husbands attended the NWTA (not just in this forum but also a few blogs). And I feel real sorry for them. I can't and won't apologize for the men that caused pain and wreckage in these women's life. It's real sad that some women 'lost' their husbands. But from personal experience I can say that the NWTA also saves relationships. I know about pending divorces that are no longer pending but instead are happy couples again. The women I met through the men that did the NWTA are either very happy that their partner did it or are neutral. I haven't personally met a partner that was disgruntled, but I know it happens.

On the flip side, I know men that never learned to stand up for themselves. I know men that are very shy or insecure. Men that would please another person rather then think about their own needs. The NWTA can change all that and this may not be liked by everyone around them. It can have a profound impact on their close relations.

MKP is not a rigid system. It is not a believe system. It is a training. The MKP doesn't have a 'holy book' or strict rules to follow. They have a manual, but that manual evolves. The MKP from 20+ years ago is not the same as the MKP today. Big parts have changed. The MKP evolves and so does the NWTA. And it should evolve because our societies and culture evolve as well. That's how things work and should work. Even within MKP men will openly admit that in the past some rituals/symbols can really damage a person and some men have been damaged/shamed in the past. The MKP has adjusted their ways over the years to prevent shaming/damaging from happening again. It is a learning curve. All I can say now is that I have never felt as supported as I do today. It is encouraging for me to know that men actually can be caring and gentle but also fierce and strong. That they can be open, honest and authentic. That I can have a conversation with other men that goes much deeper then just a talk about work/sports/beer/etc. To connect with other men without fearing judgement. All this is valuable to me and I find it difficult to understand that someone wouldn't want that?

I'm not sure how many people you have talked to about MKP other then people with a bad experience?

One of your former posts was never answered;

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SeekingTruth
If MKP and its abusive boot-camp weekend really are so positive why are there so many reports about it being:

* secretive,
* needing an extensive imjury disclaimer to be signed,
* abusive (physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually),
* disrespectful,
* aggressive,
* trauma causing,
* imposing a starvation diet with sleep deprivation,
* encouraging homosexuality amongst predominantly straight guys,
* deliberately using car-pooling so that guys can't leave,
* stealing rituals from Native American tribes,
* using meaningless pseudo New Age shamanic activities,
*etc.,

all conducted by self-appointed and untrained so-called psychotherapists.

And why is this thread so long - consisting of at least 90% negative reports?

None of these points identify the MKP as a cult, that was what the previous post was about. I have addressed the secretive, starvation and sleep deprivation in my previous post. With respect to your other points;
1. abusive. It is definitely not physically, mentally, emotionally or spiritually abusive. It can be an emotional process, but no one is abusive and everyone is very respectful. Great care is taken to honor each men and his feelings.
2. disrespectful. I haven't seen anything disrespectful. I wouldn't mind reading a post from an (ex)MKP member that claims this. All I have experienced is the utmost respect for every man and his story.
3. trauma causing. The processes used by MKP may unlock some deeply stuffed away things. It is not so much trauma causing as it is exposing existing trauma's. This can be very serious for the person involved and it should be dealt with great care. As far as I have experienced, this is the case. We actually had trained professionals on our NWTA. I'm not sure if this is always the case. IMO deep trauma's will always surface at some point. I agree that this is best done around professionals, but that's hardly ever the case. Whenever a deep trauma starts to move it's head, all sorts of things can go awry.
4. encourage homosexuality. This is simple nonsense. Nudity has nothing to do with homosexuality. I'd really like to meet the NWTA initiate that claims this.
5. car pooling. This serves more then one purpose. The NWTA is intense and men are usually 'full of the experience'. Car pooling gives them a chance to talk it over and discuss is with other men that share the experience. Car pooling is encouraged but by no means a requirement.
6. native rituals. I guess you haven't read the MKP website? In short this is used as a parallel to grow into manhood. Many (traditional) tribes, if not all, use a ritual where boys become men. The western world doesn't have this anymore and men simply 'grow out of teenage hood into adult hood'. Or at least that's what we hope. In the opinion of the MKP (and mine), many men never learned to be a man. They've never adopted a healthy masculinity. The native rituals are used to get that back. To become a 'real' man; a man of responsibility, accountability and integrity. I suppose you can use any kind of 'homemade' ritual as well for that matter, but the traditional rituals have something to it.
7. meaningless pseudo New Age shamanic activities. I guess you refer to the little leather bag with herbs and minerals? Not every symbol is meaningful to every one. I don't really associate with that either. But it may have significant meaning to others. I can see what they're aiming at, but it's a stretch for me! :)

With regards to your last comment; even if I only read the postings that I wanted to, they were pretty much all negative. So I'm not sure what you're getting at? I've read the ones from women that got hurt, men that did the NWTA but had a negative experience, I've read many of yours and dozens from 'AntiCult'. Is there anyone in particular that I should read? I realize that most of the postings are negative (90% is conservative! :) ), but I also realize that many negative postings come from either you or AntiCult. This thread feels a little unbalanced and I hope my postings shine some light on the other side of the coin. MKP is not all bad you know....

Out of curiosity; would you be willing to attend an I-Group for one night and see what it is for real? I-Groups are small local groups of men that have done the NWTA and are continuing their work in a small (usually free of charge) setting. This will give you an idea of what MKP really is and you can ask the men any question you like. Rest assured; no one will try to convert or convince you or drag you along to an NWTA! :)

Free_Thinker:

You don't seem to much of a "free thinker" and rather are here as an apologist for MKP.

As the posts on this long thread indicate MKP is quite controversial and has generated many complaints.

See [www.culteducation.com]

MKP has a history of bad press and settled a wrongful death lawsuit rather than go to trial.

The MKP manual has been discussed here in some detail. Though MKP was anxious to use copyright protection to remove the manual from this message board. Still within "fair use" excerpts remain up at this thread to illustrate (in my opinion) that MKP is manipulative and deceptive. Everything they do at their weekends is carefully scripted and not spontaneous. Of course the newcomers don't know that and are not told that in advance.

See [forum.culteducation.com]

Note the excerpts from the MKP manual, commentary and relevant links.

You may attempt to ignore this, but that doesn't reflect someone that is objectively reviewing the information posted here and freely utilizing critical thinking.

MKP has the same problems that most LGATs (large group awareness training) or mass marathon training groups have had historically.

See [www.culteducation.com]

13 liabilities of encounter groups, some of which are similar to characteristics of most current mass marathon psychotherapy training sessions:

They lack adequate participant-selection criteria.

They lack reliable norms, supervision, and adequate training for leaders.

They lack clearly defined responsibility.

They sometimes foster pseudoauthenticity and pseudoreality.

They sometimes foster inappropriate patterns of relationships.

They sometimes ignore the necessity and utility of ego defenses.

They sometimes teach the covert value of total exposure instead of valuing personal differences.

They sometimes foster impulsive personality styles and behavioral strategies.

They sometimes devalue critical thinking in favor of "experiencing" without self-analysis or reflection.

They sometimes ignore stated goals, misrepresent their actual techniques, and obfuscate their real agenda.

They sometimes focus too much on structural self-awareness techniques and misplace the goal of democratic education; as a result participants may learn more about themselves and less about group process.

They pay inadequate attention to decisions regarding time limitations. This may lead to increased pressure on some participants to unconsciously "fabricate" a cure.

They fail to adequately consider the "psychonoxious" or deleterious effects of group participation (or] adverse countertransference reactions.

Moreover, as noted specifically in the commentary regarding the MKP manual notes -- in my opinion MKP uses coercive persuasion techniques.

See [www.culteducation.com]

The key factors that distinguish coercive persuasion from other training and socialization schemes are:

The reliance on intense interpersonal and psychological attack to destabilize an individual's sense of self to promote compliance

The use of an organized peer group

Applying interpersonal pressure to promote conformity

The manipulation of the totality of the person's social environment to stabilize behavior once modified

Again, anyone interested in how MKP uses such techniques start at the beginning of this thread and go through the group's quoted manual notes with attached comments and relevant links.

I would caution anyone against involvement in MKP.

Frankly, there are much better, more credible and safer alternatives readily available such as continuing education at an accreditted local college, counseling by a licensed professional, or a support groups suggested by a local social services agency that is staffed and/or coordinated by licensed professionals. If you have a particular problem you might consult trusted family members, your doctor, clergy or locally funded referral service. There is typically no "quick fix" through a weekend and such programs most often lack meaningful accountability, scienftifically measurable results and properly licensed and trained professional staff.

See: sci.psychology.psychotherapy

Search for: "Mankind Project 'New Warrior Training' " - hilarious.

Some are here:

mankind project 'new warrior training' weekend - 1 [tinyurl.com]
mankind project 'new warrior training' weekend - 2 [tinyurl.com]
mankind project 'new warrior training' weekend - 3 [tinyurl.com]
mankind project 'new warrior training' weekend - 4 [tinyurl.com]

Before participation, are you required to sign a release of liability form in which you sign away your citizen/resident alien rights to sue or mediate for damages in case you incur harm as a result of participating in that weekend?

Here are examples of release of liability forms, used by other LGATs.

Does Mankind project have any form resembing this? If you signed such a form, you may feel like a free thinker, but are no longer free to use your citizen rights to sue or mediate for compensation in case you incur harm during the MP weekend.

Any group that tells you to accept responsibility for your actions, but uses these forms to disown its responsibility for the powerful effect of its techniques is failing to be consistent.

And dont try to say that Mankind project is better or is different than the organizations whose forms are mentioned here.

If (IF) mankind project requires participants to sign away their rights to sue or mediate for damages then by having such forms and requiring subjects to sign as a condition of participation, this demonstrates that MP is similiar to these groups by using this type of legal strategy to protect itself from its own subjects.

Here are examples of what these release forms issued by other LGATs look like.
Find out from former BM participants if they have ever seen or signed this kind of paperwork.

Discussions of these release of liability forms as used by other groups. If MKP uses these forms, there goes its claim to uniqueness.

Quote

Find out whether participants in Big Mind (trademark) must sign a release of liability form that looks anything like these. I have attended several sesshins and vipassana retreats and have never in all my years, ever had to sign anything like this.

James Rays Release of Liablity Form—The Anticult October 10, 2009 5:31 PM

[forum.culteducation.com]


Byron Katies release of Liability form

From Garden of Even, February 14, 2009
[forum.culteducation.com]

(note

Quote

this is a discussion of Byron Katie, but you can substitute the name of any other entity using a form resembling the one her org (also tradmarked to death) uses)
(quote)the buzz-word that they use for all of these techniques. VOLUNTARY. That is the same buzz-word they used when the details first came out about what went on in these seminars.

No one is saying people are being forced a gunpoint to do anything. Its all about very sophisticated PERSUASION, much of it unconscious. There is social pressure, emotional pressure, philosophical pressures (unquote

)

(A tiny excerpt from a longer analysis of the Work release of liablity by The Anticult, given February 15..read the entire thing)

Landmark Education’s liability release by vlinden February 3rd 2008

[forum.culteducation.com]

PSI Seminars Waiver steve989 –January 3rd 2009

[forum.culteducation.com]

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SeekingTruth
See: sci.psychology.psychotherapy

Search for: "Mankind Project 'New Warrior Training' " - hilarious.

Some are here:

mankind project 'new warrior training' weekend - 1 [tinyurl.com]
mankind project 'new warrior training' weekend - 2 [tinyurl.com]
mankind project 'new warrior training' weekend - 3 [tinyurl.com]
mankind project 'new warrior training' weekend - 4 [tinyurl.com]

I feel an urge to apologize. These stories would be funny if they weren't real. Those stories aren't quiet what I experienced. FYI; I live in Western Australia and did my weekend in Perth. After reading the stories from the men that you posted, I realize how big the impact of staff quality is on the group. I haven't experienced any of the aggressive behavior/treatments described. We had licensed professional psychologists, psychiatrists and medics on the staff that were easy to recognize by the bands on their arm. I did however have the strange 'introduction' with men dressed in black and black stripes on their face. I'm still trying to figure out what that was about!

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corboy
Does Mankind project have any form resembing this? If you signed such a form, you may feel like a free thinker, but are no longer free to use your citizen rights to sue or mediate for compensation in case you incur harm during the MP weekend.

Any group that tells you to accept responsibility for your actions, but uses these forms to disown its responsibility for the powerful effect of its techniques is failing to be consistent.

And dont try to say that Mankind project is better or is different than the organizations whose forms are mentioned here.

If (IF) mankind project requires participants to sign away their rights to sue or mediate for damages then by having such forms and requiring subjects to sign as a condition of participation, this demonstrates that MP is similiar to these groups by using this type of legal strategy to protect itself from its own subjects.

The MKP has indeed a form resembling this. I have to admit that when I first saw/read it, I was slightly surprised and disturbed by it. Death? Can I die on this weekend? Seriously? I figured that it made sense for an American organization where even a microwave manufacturer needs to warn a user not to put their cat in the microwave to dry! I didn't think to much of it and in hindsight, I don't really see the need for it (for me anyway) either. Nothing that I have seen or done was physically threatening. I'm not saying and haven't said or claimed that MKP is better than other organisations, I haven't done Landmark or other 'trainings' so I can't make that judgement call.

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rrmoderator
You don't seem to much of a "free thinker" and rather are here as an apologist for MKP.

I'm sorry if that is what it seems. I'm just trying to share a different story. FYI, I'm also a master Freemason where we practice in a very different way to achieve a similar goal; a better man in a better world. What 'better' means, is up to each man.

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rrmoderator
MKP has a history of bad press and settled a wrongful death lawsuit rather than go to trial.

There is a fair bit of bad press indeed! And don't get me started on bad press about Freemasonry. I know Freemasonry from the inside out and can tell from experience that the majority of bad press is unfounded. That also tells me that I have to be careful with what I read. Just because the press is negative doesn't mean that the opinions expressed by the press are true/valid. Bad press about MKP is understandable and in a number of cases warranted, but that's not always the case.

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rrmoderator
[www.culteducation.com]

That link is a very interesting article! I really enjoyed reading that. A few comments on the 13 liabilities listed from personal experience.

They lack adequate participant-selection criteria. - They have extensive checklists that you need to fill out to find out whether you are suitable.
They lack reliable norms, supervision, and adequate training for leaders. - Training is extensive for the leaders and mandatory. It takes a tremendous amount of training before one can be a leader. Training takes usually place outside MKP and is not MKP founded or related.
They lack clearly defined responsibility. - Not on my weekend and in my experience, but I assume that this may occur.
They sometimes foster pseudoauthenticity and pseudoreality. - I haven't seen it, but I assume this can happen.
They sometimes foster inappropriate patterns of relationships. - No relationships, business or personal (other then simple friendship), are allowed in the 6 months following the weekend.
They sometimes ignore the necessity and utility of ego defenses. - Interesting, maybe.
They sometimes teach the covert value of total exposure instead of valuing personal differences. - Definitely not the case for MKP
They sometimes foster impulsive personality styles and behavioral strategies. - Not sure what this means.
They sometimes devalue critical thinking in favor of "experiencing" without self-analysis or reflection. - Definitely not the case for MKP
They sometimes ignore stated goals, misrepresent their actual techniques, and obfuscate their real agenda. - That's a big one! As far as I can see it doesn't apply. Then again, I don't fully know the MKP.
They sometimes focus too much on structural self-awareness techniques and misplace the goal of democratic education; as a result participants may learn more about themselves and less about group process. - I guess that's true.
They pay inadequate attention to decisions regarding time limitations. This may lead to increased pressure on some participants to unconsciously "fabricate" a cure. - The contrary was true on my weekend. Up to a point where I felt a string urge to 'please move on'.
They fail to adequately consider the "psychonoxious" or deleterious effects of group participation (or] adverse countertransference reactions. - That can be the case, but in my experience is very unlikely.

The bottom bit hits me as most important;

The groups were determined to be dangerous when:
Leaders had rigid, unbending beliefs about what participants should experience and believe, how they should behave in the group. and when they should change.
Leaders had no sense of differential diagnosis and assessment skills, valued cathartic emotional breakthroughs as the ultimate therapeutic experience, and sadistically pressed to create or force a breakthrough in every participant.
Leaders had an evangelical system of belief that was the one single pathway to salvation.
Leaders were true believers and sealed their doctrine off from discomforting data or disquieting results and tended to discount a poor result by, "blaming the victim."

None of the above applied to MY weekend, but I suppose some of it may apply to other weekends organized elsewhere. So I assume there is reason to be cautious. That said, these dangers fits the Church pretty good as well. I can see how at least 3 out of 4 apply to the church. So I guess this is a risk we always have regardless of what group one follows. It just goes to show how important it is to be critical and questioning in life. I'm glad to have come across this forum as the comments here challenge my convictions.

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rrmoderator
Moreover, as noted specifically in the commentary regarding the MKP manual notes -- in my opinion MKP uses coercive persuasion techniques.

When you say 'in my opinion MKP uses coercive persuasion techniques' I'm a bit confused. Do you mean they try to recruit people using that technique? Because recruitment doesn't happen. Not here anyway. Well, I suppose I talk pretty enthusiastically to people around me about it, but it doesn't go any further than that. For the trainings/processes themselves, we gather in small groups and we are just talking in an open/honest way. We have several processes that we can use to address certain things that happen to us in life. One process is called 'What's at risk' and the term in itself explains the process. It is used when men feel they're stuck in a situation and struggle to get out. With this process men get to see how we often create a false image of a certain outcome that is unrealistic but at the same time stops them from progressing. I really don't see any harm in these processes. Would you mind to elaborate?

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rrmoderator
Frankly, there are much better, more credible and safer alternatives readily available such as continuing education at an accredited local college, counseling by a licensed professional, or a support groups suggested by a local social services agency that is staffed and/or coordinated by licensed professionals. If you have a particular problem you might consult trusted family members, your doctor, clergy or locally funded referral service. There is typically no "quick fix" through a weekend and such programs most often lack meaningful accountability, scienftifically measurable results and properly licensed and trained professional staff.

I totally agree here. However, education at a college is not aimed at dealing with yourself, recognizing emotions or understanding how conflicts in your life often have an origin in yourself. If one needs counseling or has problems in life, PLEASE do see a professional and DON'T attend the weekend. There is indeed NO quick fix for any issue one may have. The weekend is NOT therapy, it is NOT counselling and it is not aimed at solving problems. It is aimed at men that want to know themselves better, understand why they behave the way they do or men that want to have a more meaningful life.

I'd like to finish this posting with a note of appreciation. I definitely learned a lot more about MKP thanks to all your postings and links. I discussed this forum at a local meeting in Perth with about 12 staff members that have been in MKP for a long time (I'm still new). They also told me that MKP hasn't always been what it is today. Apparently, some comments and bad experiences on this forum hold real merit. They warned me to be careful in my postings and respect what some men had to go through. It keeps evolving and improving itself. I don't want to sound like an apologist, but I can understand if that is how it comes across. I merely want to share my personal experiences. I really appreciate that I get the space for that on this forum!

Thanks!

Free_Thinker:

Again, you seem to be here as little more than an apologist for MKP.

You say, "Those stories aren't quiet what I experienced. FYI; I live in Western Australia and did my weekend in Perth."

Frankly, this seems like a form of a denial. MKP has the same required script for all its events as mandated by the organization. And that script is excerpted and noted beginning on the first page of this thread.

You admit, "MKP has indeed a form resembling this." Here you specifically acknowledge that MKP has a release form, which it requires participants to sign in order to limit its liability before they do the weekend. Here it's important to point out that since the weekend structure and what is to come is kept secret, those that sign off on such forms have no idea what they are really singning away their recourse rights about. Again, MKP was sued for wrongful death in the United States, but decided to settle rather than go to trial. Now they have a form to avoid legal responsibility for what may happen to individual participants as a result of the MKP weekend, which you try to spin as "risk we always have regardless of what group one follows."

However, licensed mental health professionals, counselors, social services programs, support groups, colleges and other more credible alternatives to MKP don't typically use such forms and assume full responsbility for what they do and how they do it. They are accountable.

You state, "We had licensed professional psychologists, psychiatrists and medics on the staff..." But you then say, " The weekend is NOT therapy, it is NOT counselling and it is not aimed at solving problems."

This would seem to be two opposing statements or contradictions. That is unless you admit that the professionals you mention are not at an MKP weekend to practice their profession, but rather there to support MKP as true believers. Perhaps they are there to provide an aura of respectability, but they are certainly not functioning within the boundaries of their professiona providing therapy or counseling as you point out, which would require them to adhere to professional standards, assume professional responsibiltiy and be accountable to a licensing board regarding their behavior and practices.

FYI -- I don't receive complaints about Freemasonry. And Freemasonry is not the subject of this thread. This thread is about MKP.

See [www.culteducation.com]

There is a subsection within the Ross Institute Archives about Freemasonry to disabuse people about conspiracy theories concerning that organization. It is interesting to note, that despite the long history and size of Freemasonry, I don't recall any wrongful death lawsuit that the organization and/or one of its chapters has settled.

Despite you attempt to spin MKP as benign its history of complaints, bad press and litigation would seem to indicate otherwise. The organization uses the LGAT format to download its philosophy to participants, just like other LGATs such as Landmark Education/est, Sterling Institute of Relationships, NXIVM, Lifespring, etc. The jest of what LGATs like MKP do is to offer their philisophy as a means of resolving life's problems, as a kind of cure-all "one size fits all", i.e. adopt our philosophy/worldview and you will be better.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/2012 11:06PM by rrmoderator.

Dear rrmoderator,

I really appreciate the time you spend on this topic. Once more on the apologist thing; I'm just arguing the other side of the story. I have not had a bad experience and some of the things said by other posters are simply false. It seems fair that I can set things straight, right? I don't mind reading all kinds of facts (good or bad) about MKP, as long as they are facts and not false assumptions.

My stating that I live elsewhere isn't meant as denial. Different countries with different cultures have different approaches. You're right that the script is pretty much the same everywhere, but I see a lot of difference in the experiences described by other men from the experience I had. Differences in the way we were treated, the food supplied, the nights we had, the amount of respect received, the patience shown by staff, professionalism shown by staff, etc. Staff on my weekend was 95% Australians. I'm actually from Europe and can assure you that mentality, culture and social interaction is *very* different here. That's all.

With regards to the settlement;
1. Being sued for wrongful death doesn't mean that you are wrong or responsible.
2. Settling is recommended in ALL cases. Mediation is tried first before taking things to court if the parties can't come to an agreement. However, settling is not the same as admission of guilt. I work in the medical device business and we pretty much ALWAYS settle in case of a lawsuit. Fighting in court is expensive and takes forever. If the settlement figure is low and less then the assumed cost of a lawsuit, it just makes sense from an economical point of view. And the other side KNOWS that. If a settlement figure is low, one can assume that the other side knows that they will loose in court. Offering a low settlement figure makes sense in these cases as they are usually accepted since fighting it would be too costly. Court costs are often reimbursed to the party that filed the lawsuit, not the other way around. This is common practice! (settlement figure in this case was 75k, not the millions we usually see)
3. The MKP in Houston had to make procedural changes to their screening and had to incorporate an exit strategy in the weekend. This has been implemented by MKP on a global scale.
4. MKP had to change the website to provide adequate information from which potential applicants can make an informed decision about whether to attend the NWTA.
5. The MKP website shall disclose that a mental health professional will screen applications to determine suitability for participation. (which happens)
6. The MKP website will need to disclose that people who wish to leave the NWTA are free to do so.
7. Applicants will be told that the NWTA may involve optional nudity and certain elements of Native American traditions.

Any organization that I know that does more then sitting in a chair has a waiver; skydiving, kayaking, hiking, paintball, skiing, etc. Any organization where people may get hurt one way or another, even just by slipping on a bit of wet floor, is enough to create a massive lawsuit and thus all organizations that I have been involved with will have an indemnity relief form.

Another note with regards to the case involving a man committing suicide after the NWTA; the parents BELIEVED it was caused by the NWTA. And I can understand that, I suppose anyone can... Loosing your son to suicide is horrible. Who would not want an answer or blame someone in this tragedy?

Quote
rrmoderator
You state, "We had licensed professional psychologists, psychiatrists and medics on the staff..." But you then say, " The weekend is NOT therapy, it is NOT counselling and it is not aimed at solving problems."

This would seem to be two opposing statements or contradictions. That is unless you admit that the professionals you mention are not at an MKP weekend to practice their profession, but rather there to support MKP as true believers. Perhaps they are there to provide an aura of respectability, but they are certainly not functioning within the boundaries of their professiona providing therapy or counseling as you point out, which would require them to adhere to professional standards, assume professional responsibiltiy and be accountable to a licensing board regarding their behavior and practices.

These aren't contradicting IMO. Even with extensive screening, a person not fit for the weekend might participate. In that case it's good to have a professional on board. And yes, I will admit that these professionals aren't hired staff. They don't get paid for their profession; the weekend is expensive enough as it is. But they wouldn't act or be any different if they were paid. They're not 'believers' by the way as you call them. And I'm not a believer either. I don't believe in anything. MKP is not a belief system. There is no 'holy book'. There is no leader that I or anyone else has to answer to. Religion is based on belief, MKP is not. And indeed, the professionals are not there to provide therapy or counseling as the NWTA is not about that. And since that isn't the case, they are not functioning as counselors or therapists. However, if a man was to have a breakdown (which is very rare), these men can provide help to the man that may require it. They know how to handle these situations. Simple as that.

Bad press doesn't mean all that much to me. As mentioned before, freemasonry received much worse press for much longer. There's bad press about all kinds of things. One case is hardly 'a history of litigation'. With regards to your comments on LGATs, I do not disagree. Not for the most of it anyway. I do disagree on one aspect though, as far as I know, the MKP does not claim or offer to solve any (life) problems one may have. Where did you find that?

The caveat with most LGATs is that there is no follow up. It is actually interesting to note that the results from LGATs are very limited and most research doesn't show any effect at all, positive or negative. (why does this thread exist again?) The ones that do show an effect also show that the effect doesn't last for very long. At the risk of sounding like an apologist; MKP introduced the I-Group to ensure long term positive effects. Even though this thread focuses entirely on the weekend, within the MKP, that weekend is only a small (but crucial) part. The I-Groups allow men to come together in small settings (3-10 men) and continue their work of raising awareness in themselves.

BTW, LGATs are not the same as cults:

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Wikipedia
LGATs in comparison with cults

Singer
The American Psychological Association commissioned and subsequently decided not to endorse[33] and strongly criticised [34] a report by the APA Task Force on Deceptive and Indirect Techniques of Persuasion and Control, in which the so-called[by whom?] "anti-cult" psychologist Margaret Singer included large group awareness trainings as one example of what she called "coercive persuasion". The APA characterized Singer's hypotheses as "uninformed speculations based on skewed data" [34] and stated that the report "n general" lacked "the scientific rigor and evenhanded critical approach necessary for APA imprimatur." [33] The APA also claimed that "the specific methods by which Drs. Singer and Benson have arrived at their conclusions have also been rejected by all serious scholars in the field."[34] Singer sued the APA, and lost on June 17, 1994[35] After the APA spurned the report, Singer remained in good standing in the psychological research community.[36] Singer reworked much of the report material into the book Cults in our Midst: The Hidden Menace in Our Everyday Lives (1995, second edition: 2003), which she co-authored with Janja Lalich.
Singer and Lalich stated that "large group awareness trainings" tend to last at least four days and usually five. Their book mentions Erhard Seminars Training and its derivatives such as the Forum, "Lifespring, Actualizations, MSIA/Insight and PSI Seminars.[37]
In her book, Singer differentiated between the usage of the terms cult and Large Group Awareness Training.[37][page needed] while pointing out some commonalities.[38][39] Elsewhere she groups the two phenomena together in that they both use a shared set of thought-reform techniques.[40] Singer also writes that employees taking part in a company-wide Large Group Awareness Training program not only complained about attempted religious conversion, but also objected to the specific techniques used.[23]

[en.wikipedia.org]

Free_Thinker:

Now you say, "I have not had a bad experience and some of the things said by other posters are simply false."

You are here as an apologist and when confronted by the first-hand experiences of people that see MKP negatively you simply go into denial mode based upon your subjective experience. But that is not proof of anything, other than you are a diehard true beleiver when it comes to MKP.

MKP settled its lawsuit because it did not wish to take the risk of going to trial. They apparently felt that a settlement was a safer choice. $75,000 dollars is likely more than it would have probably cost to go to trial. If MKP felt sure that the organization was not responsible in any way, going to trial would have been the best choice and could have served as an exoneration. But MKP chose otherwise.

Your rather pathetic attempt to somehow shift the focus from MKP to the bereaved family of the dead man is quite frankly despicable. But it does illustrate how far a true believer will go in an effort to "blame someone" else other than the group they support. This is typical of many LGAT supporters.

The changes that MKP made after the liigation were essentially forced upon it by outside presssure through both bad press and litigation. MKP made the changes to protect itself from further litigation.

A group weekend seminar should not be compared to "skydiving, kayaking, hiking, paintball, skiing", which can be seen as physically risky recreation.

LGATs that seek release forms in my opinion are suspect. And the release forms that MKP requires should be a "red flag" to anyone and most especially because what goes on withing the weekend is largely kept secret, i.e.. there is no way to know exactly what the participant is being asked to sign off about.

Citing Wikipedia as a source here is ridiculous. Wikipedia's disclaimer in part reads, "Please be advised that nothing found here has necessarily been reviewed by people with the expertise required to provide you with complete, accurate or reliable information." And "Wikipedia cannot guarantee the validity of the information found here." It further states, "Wikipedia is an online open-content collaborative encyclopedia...", which means that anyone can edit Wikipedia. There have been serious problems at Wikipedia regarding editing, such as several Scientologists that were dispelled as Wikipedia editors concerning their activities and bias.

See the disclaimer here [en.wikipedia.org]

Regarding Wikipedia's Scientology problem see [en.wikipedia.org]

Concerning your selective recounting of the matter regarding the APA and Margaret Singer. The end result was that APA decided not to take a position and to remain neutral concerning the issue of coercive persuasion pending further study and research. On March 24, 1987 the APA filed a motion to withdraw its signature from a brief opposing Singer. The APA stated that its sonclusion regarding "brainwashing" or coercive persuasion was premature. Subsequently the APA stated, "Finally, after much consideration, [APA] BSERP does not believe that we have sufficient information available to guide us in taking a position on this issue."

A research paper published about all this came to conclude the following: "In using the words, 'undue non-physical persuasion' (otherwise known as coercive persuasion,' `mind control,' or `brainwashing')" the Division 36 resolution clearly acknowledges the existence of the phenomenon that others claimed APA rejected. The resolution also made clear that 'there is no consensus' regarding whether or not scientific research demonstrates that certain religious groups practice 'brainwashing.' And acknowledged that "For hundreds of years social considerations have allowed testimony to be admitted to invalidate a Will by showing undue influence by a person who benefits from a bequest in the Will. In cases dealing with sexual abuse and the manipulation of those with an impaired capacity to make independent judgments, psychologists frequently testify that certain action, which on its face appears to be voluntary and consensual, lacks certain necessary elements of such consent."

See [www.culteducation.com]

I did not say that MKP is a "cult". This is a "straw man" or false argument. MKP is an LGAT. And despite your opinion, LGATs do teach a philosophy or worldview that they posit as an answer to life's problems. Anyone who doubts this need only go to the beginning of this thread and read through it. Note the excerpts from the MKP mandated script for its weekends and the following commentary. Also note the various complaints from past participants about what MKP teaches and its practices.

You said, "I will admit that these professionals aren't hired staff. They don't get paid..." Thank you for that admission. This means that the previously cited professionals (e.g. mental health professionals) that you referred to are merely volunteers associated with MKP. And that their credentials as professionals should not be cited to somehow offer a facade of professionalsim to MKP and its practices, as they are not functioning in any professional capacity at the weekend.

You also acknowledge that a participant may "breakdown", though you insist that this is "very rare".

You also said that MKP has "I-Groups" that "allow men to come together in small settings (3-10 men) and continue their work of raising awareness in themselves." This can be seen as an effort to extend MKP influence and continue its recruitment process in part by unitlizing such groups of supporters in outreach efforts.

Again, what you call the "raising awareness" is a not so cryptic allusion to the MKP philosophy or worldview. That belief system is the means of "awareness" and upon which the "awareness" is predicated.

No LGAT has ever done a scientific study to determine the objective results of its training. The most done seems to be surveys that poll the opinions of participants. Such surveys are based upon how people subjectively feel about the training. An objective study would be the examination of objectively measurable results regaring LGAT participants. For example, did students make higher grades? Did the rate of divorce measurably drop? Do past participants require less professional counseling, or use anxiety medication less? Did graduates become more financially successful and make more noney? This could be done easily by following and measuring outcomes with participants going one year out to say five years out. The results could then be contrasted with a control group that had not done the training. The study might then be submitted for peer-review and then published in a credible peer-reviewed scientific journal. I don't recall such credible research regarding results done by any LGAT. Instead, they rely upon anecdotal evidence through individual testimonials or surveys measuring opinion. This is much like religious adherents that offer emotional testimonies of their conversion and how their conversion has "saved" them based upon their newfound faith.

I continue to receive complaints about MKP and would not recommend it to anyone under any circumstances.

Your posts here have helped to illustrate what's wrong with MKP and further substantiated many of the concerns about the group that people have previously expressed.

Thank you.

Dear rrmoderator,

Quote

You are here as an apologist and when confronted by the first-hand experiences of people that see MKP negatively you simply go into denial mode based upon your subjective experience. But that is not proof of anything, other than you are a diehard true beleiver when it comes to MKP.

I don't know why you say this? There's nothing to deny. I read their stories, but don't judge or deny them. You don't hear me say that it didn't happen. You don't hear me say that the men that had the negative experience are to blame. I fully admit that some men had a negative experience and I'm sorry to hear that. In that case it's a waste of their money. And it's fair to say that my experience is subjective. Like everyone else's. The men with a bad experience also have a subjective experience and that makes their story just as valid as mine. Both aren't prove of anything, they're experiences. Period.

Quote

MKP settled its lawsuit because it did not wish to take the risk of going to trial. They apparently felt that a settlement was a safer choice. $75,000 dollars is likely more than it would have probably cost to go to trial. If MKP felt sure that the organization was not responsible in any way, going to trial would have been the best choice and could have served as an exoneration. But MKP chose otherwise.

Your rather pathetic attempt to somehow shift the focus from MKP to the bereaved family of the dead man is quite frankly despicable. But it does illustrate how far a true believer will go in an effort to "blame someone" else other than the group they support. This is typical of many LGAT supporters.

I'm a bit surprised by your choice of words here. I did not attempt to shift anything and I don't see a need to use the word 'pathetic'. I simply stated a few facts. I have been very close to suicides to know how this impacts families and their sense of desperation and their need to rid themselves of a feeling of guilt. The people that are left behind after a suicide of a close relative/friend often struggle with a great deal of guilt. Even though that guilt is usually unfounded. I merely point out that I can see how this affects someone. With regards to cost, my lawyer charges $750 hour. I'm pretty sure that any lawsuit he needs to handle for me will cost more than 75k. And I'll have to say it again; MKP is not something you can believe in. As there's simply nothing to believe. Just concepts that one may ponder over and processes that one can choose to use. Calling me or anyone a true believer makes no sense in this context.

Interesting to note; believing and denying are the same thing, just different ends of the same scale. Your contributions make you a true believer of the opposite. A true believer of your own truth. No matter what I say, it can always be spun around by true believers...

Quote

The changes that MKP made after the liigation were essentially forced upon it by outside presssure through both bad press and litigation. MKP made the changes to protect itself from further litigation.

No, MKP was forced to make these changes as a result of the lawsuit filed by the parents of the man that committed suicide. Part of the settlement was that the MKP had to change a few things within the organisation. This was one of them. Nothing to do with bad press or litigation.

Quote

A group weekend seminar should not be compared to "skydiving, kayaking, hiking, paintball, skiing", which can be seen as physically risky recreation.

The weekend does involve minor physical activity which is slightly risky.

Quote

LGATs that seek release forms in my opinion are suspect. And the release forms that MKP requires should be a "red flag" to anyone and most especially because what goes on withing the weekend is largely kept secret, i.e.. there is no way to know exactly what the participant is being asked to sign off about.

What happens on the weekend is spelled out on this forum. The links you posted to the stories of the men that did the weekend lift the last bit of fog surrounding any secrets. Anyone who really wants to know, can find out on the web. But it is encouraged (and I would endorse that) to keep it a surprise. There's no need to be afraid of anything.

No need to get all worked up over Wikipedia. I'm well aware of how the website works and is kept 'up-to-date'. Whenever I copy something from somewhere else, I will provide the source. You're suggesting that the MKP, perceived by you as a large secretive organisation trying to brainwash men, is trying to alter Wikipedia to improve it's own image by editing a general article about LGATs? Please...

About the cult; I guess I mixed things up. I can't find a reference here to MKP being a cult. I was positive I read this in previous postings, but I can't find it so I guess I'm wrong. I apologize.

With regards to the NWTA 'world view', on second thought I would agree that the instructions posted in the beginning of this thread (and thus the NWTA) requires or portray a certain worldview indeed. I had not realized that before, I guess I've seen it before and I am familiar with it which is why I didn't recognize it right away. My own personal worldview doesn't collide with it and doesn't prevent me from being part of that one. That's a new insight for and I can see how that's important. Thanks. Clearly your own worldview is very different from the NWTA and does collide! :) But that's fine.

The professionals I referred can indeed be considered volunteers. That doesn't mean however that they cannot use their professional skills. A doctor watching a movie in the cinema can still very well assist when someone in the audience has a heart attack (assuming the doctor has expertise in that area). Australia has thousands of volunteer firefighters. They all get training and none of them get paid. Being a volunteer doesn't take your skills away.

Quote

You also said that MKP has "I-Groups" that "allow men to come together in small settings (3-10 men) and continue their work of raising awareness in themselves." This can be seen as an effort to extend MKP influence and continue its recruitment process in part by unitlizing such groups of supporters in outreach efforts.

Again, what you call the "raising awareness" is a not so cryptic allusion to the MKP philosophy or worldview. That belief system is the means of "awareness" and upon which the "awareness" is predicated.

Again, MKP has no organized way to recruit people. I benefit from it, I enjoy it, and thus I talk to other people about it. For your understanding; men can come to the I-Group without doing the NWTA. The I-Group is free of charge. We don't talk about MKP, we don't talk about world views. We talk about ourselves, our own experiences and how that impacted us and others. That's it. Plain and simple. No secrecy, no agenda.

I guess raising awareness can be called a worldview or philosophy. To me the maslow's hierarchy of needs makes sense. Being in a safe Western country, and having all my primary needs covered, I can work on esteem and self actualization. And sure, that is a world view. If you feel that this is nonsense, you have every right. Then again, I like to know what triggers me into rage. Why I feel a need to post these posts. What moves me. This is what I call awareness. Being aware of the world around you, that I impact on others, that I may (accidentally) hurt feelings, that I may try to please people because I want people to like me. A better understanding of myself and my behavior. I don't see any harm in that. On the contrary, I know plenty people that would benefit from understanding themselves a lot better. But knowing can be a burden. It's like the Matrix in this context; do you take the red or the blue pill?

You say that no LGAT has ever done a study. I guess that's half true, many studies were funded by LGATs. Then again, would you believe the results from a study about LGATs done by a LGAT organization? I wouldn't and I'm pretty sure you wouldn't either! I would be pretty happy to see a study as you describe done by an independent group. Sounds awesome! If you can inspire someone to do that, that would be awesome. I'm not in that field and not connected to anyone that could do this. I do not claim anything other than stating, again, that I benefit from this.

I appreciate your recommendation. I trust people are smart enough to make up their own minds. They can do their own research and decide for themselves what they should do and if this is something they can benefit from. Your posts showed me a world(view) that I wasn't familiar with and I learned a lot from it. Thanks for that! I hope you are aware of your own prejudice/bias in this matter?

I'll leave you with a comparison; whenever I'm on the road I can sometimes be irritated by another car. And somehow, in my experience that car is 'the person'. Only when I get to meet the driver (which happens on occasion) I can see how the driver is actually a nice person and how my associations were wrong. This is not that different, you focus entirely on the car without realizing that there is a driver behind the wheel. That driver is just another person like you and me. If we were to meet face to face, like two drivers of a car, you'd see that I'm just another man.

MKP is just an organization, nothing bad intended. They don't make money, they don't brainwash their 'members' (you actually can't become a member), they do a weekend with the intention to help you find peace with yourself/a purpose/a better life. Their intention is not to make anyone's life worse, financially, emotionally or physically.

Thanks again!