Hello everyone, this is my first post. I've been reading many of your posts and there is a lot of good information here. I am grateful -- just wish I had found it sooner! I've been reading a lot - read Singer's work, other websites, even read Erhard's biography to look at the seed this came from. I'm trying to get as educated as I can. All of it has been helpful.

I am friends with a Lekkie (actually we just mutually ended a dating relationship -- my side of it I just wasn't going to be treated rudely and I wasn't in love with the person she had become in Landmark), who is in DEEP. She has completed the Forum, the Curriculum for Living, Widsom Couse, SELP, Communications, Relationships, etc. courses, does the "Widsom Weekends" (whatever those are). I don't think she has done the Intro Leader Program, but I don't know for sure. I can see her as a Landmark evangelist in training(and would probably see that as a compliment). We had dated just a couple months and I had enough. She wants to keep in contact, even though I have made it perfectly clear that under no circumstances will I go to another introduction. She has respected that so far. So, we have a connection, and I want to work with that to try to coax her away from Landmarkdom.

I knew her years ago before she started all this Forum stuff -- didn't know she had dived in so deep in the intervening years. That person is gone, or at least repressed under layers and layers of crap. I accept that she may go to her grave like this, and that the chance of getting her to see the light is EXTREMELY slim. But, I will work with that chance (hey - I play the Powerball occasionally, so what the heck) as far as I can. I've been reading here that the way to go is to be loving and supportive of her, and not negative towards Landmark. I can see this from the perspective of giving her something attractive to move towards. I've been doing that, and being humorous in particular seems to help. But, I have a some of questions:

1. What is it that I should be supporting? It's hard to separate the Landmark part of her life from the non, and I don't want to support the Landmark part. Some examples from those who are dealing with this would be helpful.

2. How important is it to address the lingo? The lingo and robotic scripts drive me insane, I find myself tuning her out when she speaks in it, and I have set boundaries around some of it, but I'm wondering if this is the right battle to fight. Should I grin and bear it in order to be that which she wants to move towards, or enforce a "no lingo" zone to provide some boundaries. I don't want to win the battle and lose the war, but if it's helpful to address it, I'd like to know that.

3. For those of you who have succeeded helping someone, how deep into this were they? Just want to compare notes.

4. Some of you have mentioned the inconsistencies between Landmark and mainstream religions such as Christianity, and I brought this up with her early on, before I found this site, as she is a Christian. Is working this angle risky (too negative)?

Any other suggestions on what may work/help would also be appreciated. I know -- I've got better odds with the Powerball! :wink: I thank you in advance for your help and look forward to your replies. Thanks!

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lightwolf
I am friends with a Lekkie (actually we just mutually ended a dating relationship -- my side of it I just wasn't going to be treated rudely and I wasn't in love with the person she had become in Landmark), who is in DEEP. !

Lightwolf,

I was in a similar situation recently. The key word here is being "treated rudely". There is no place for that kind of an attitude in a normal relationship. Being rude sounds typical to Landmarkians. They are very good at making you feel guilty about your own attitude and they tell you that the price you must pay for being righteous is to loose a relationship, longevity and happiness (the racket you are running). This is nothing but pure manipulation and it’s very destabilizing. They promise you an “extraordinary” and “authentic” life filled with “possibilities”, but this is only lies since there are no possibilities outside Landmark.

At some point, I was destabilized enough that I decided to seek for professional help in the form of a psychologist. One session was enough for me to accept that she was not the person for me. You must look at the whole picture. The Landmark indoctrination is simply too profound to live a normal life. It was difficult for a couple of weeks, but today I am glad to have let her go. Because trying to “fix “ her is only mirroring her trying to “fix’ you. It’s a never ending battle. And keep in mind that she is getting constant “coaching” by people who gave her “love bombing” and other psychological rewards. THEY will not let her free, and SHE is not asking to be saved!

Today, I realize that I made the right decision. And I have finally met a lovely woman who is normal and who supports me and loves me just the way I am. No need to “fix” me anymore. Simple love and understanding. This is what “authenticity” and having an “extraordinary” life means to me.

Best of luck.

MD

I duplicated my reply -- see my next post. Sorry!

Thanks for the reply MD, I appreciaate it.

I'm glad to hear you found someone truly authentic and extraordinay. I wish the same for myself.

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midonov123
They are very good at making you feel guilty about your own attitude

Yes they are -- it would be funny if it wasn't so destructive for them.

Your message is one I need to keep infront of me to avoid the trap of "saving" her -- you are right in that she is not asking to be saved. I understand she is the only one who can get her out. I have moved on in a search for a significant relationship. I am willing to try and remain friends, however, and was looking for some additional info on tips for providing an alternate message from those of you who have endured a friendship with someone in Landmark. It the friendship can work, great. If not, that's fine too.

Thanks again

-lightwolf
(sorry if this reply is duplicated -- still learning how to do things here) :)

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lightwolf
I am willing to try and remain friends, however, and was looking for some additional info on tips for providing an alternate message from those of you who have endured a friendship with someone in Landmark. :)

Lightwolf,

I like compare people indoctrinated in Landmark to patients who have suffered from psychosis. Those who have suffered psychotic episodes can live normal lives (under proper medication) as long as you don't address their delusions. If you address it, they may fall into a relapse. Psychotic patients will never understand that their delusions are "delusional" and this is the paradox to their illness. They cannot be cured (only controlled) because their illness doesn't allow them to understand they are sick.

The same thing for Landmarkians. They will never understand nor accept that their mind have been altered without their knowledge, nor will they ever accept that they have been indoctrinated because the indoctrination process doesn't allow them to understand they have been. Remember that landmark's training has been associated with psychotic episode, and this is probably not a coincidence. I believe it takes people on the edge of psychosis, and some people simply go over the fence.

So, just like you do with psychotic patient, the best thing is to avoid talking about their "delusions". The problem however is that if they keep participating in advanced courses and programs, they always have a "coach" to remind them about it. So in my opinion, unless you can isolate the person from these sharks and let the delusions fade away, it's a lost battle. You cannot save someone who doesn't want to be saved. Just like you cannot "reason" a patient out of psychosis.

Mike

Mike - What you have written is mostly correct however, I don't know in what context you are saying that LE participants never come out of their delusional state.

There are people on this board who have recovered and my GF has also. She fully understands she was deusional about her abilities and totally understands she was put under a form of hypnosis during the Saturday Night Fear exercise. She totally understands she was under the influence of thought reform - have no doubt, people do recover from Landmark!

Oz

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Concerned Oz
Mike - What you have written is mostly correct however, I don't know in what context you are saying that LE participants never come out of their delusional state.

There are people on this board who have recovered and my GF has also. She fully understands she was deusional about her abilities and totally understands she was put under a form of hypnosis during the Saturday Night Fear exercise. She totally understands she was under the influence of thought reform - have no doubt, people do recover from Landmark!

Oz

Oz,

Thanks for your comments. As I read back my post, I realize it doesn't really sound the way it was intended to.

I didn't mean the delusion is permanent for those in Landmark. I said the delusion can "fade away" if you can isolate the participants from all the "coaching" they get constantly. I agree the comparison with psychosis is not perfect, but there are some close similarities. I think Landmark can take participants on the "edge" of psychosis from where recovery is possible if you leave the group.

But I'm still puzzled by those who have suffered real psychotic episodes and have said, after their hospitalization, that they still believe they are entirely responsible for what happened to them and that the Landmark experience was good! Is this recovery?

MD

My wife is a new inductee into Landmark. I didn't realize what was going on until she came home after the third night of the Forum. The first two nights she came home skeptical of the exercises and lessons being taught. The third night she was bouncing and bubbly - completely estatic about her new discovery.

She was also crazy about getting me to take the course. I was constantly hearing about how my life wasn't complete and how Landmark could set me straight. What's worse, I overheard her making the same observations and invitations to her friends on the phone. Alarm bells were going off in my head, and I quickly started Googling for more information about "Landmark Education."

So far I haven't been able to get through to her. All of the information I've placed in front of her, from this site and others, has been dismissed as the works of people who just don't understand because they haven't exxperienced it for themselves or simply couldn't accept their rackets.

It's ugly. I'm scared out of my mind for her and it's consuming my every thought. This isn't a girlfriend situation, this is my wife - my life. I'm glad to hear that there's real hope for recognition and recovery. The first couple replies had me a bit scared. It sounded a bit like putting a horse out if it's misery when it broke a leg. Thanks for the reassurance.

Now, any suggestions on how to proceed would be appreciated. I'm digging through forum posts (like this one), and every other bit of literature I can lay my hands on, but I'd love your help and experience on how to focus my efforts.

Ether Dragon,

Sorry to hear about what happened with your wife. This is very sad and your feelings/reaction are normal. It sounds like your wife is still on the initial "high" from the Forum, and this will be an exciting time for her and a difficult time for you. It's like a drug and they don't want to let go of it and right now Landmark can do no wrong. She has a coach and a new family of self-affirming friends that praise her every move and word. It's addicting -- and Landmark knows it.

This self-affirming atmosphere is why debating her doesn't work. It just drives them deeper into Landmark's grasp. It's human nature to move towards approval, and I believe Landmark counts on that. I know it's hard not to debate and tell her the truth you know, but she is resistant right now. They are trained to resist debate especially from concerned loved ones/friends/etc. and they are trained well. Her coach will keep re-affirming Landmark philosophy to her, so they have an internal support system. It's infuriating, but that's the reality.

The best advice I can give is that which I received: be supportive of her activities outside of Landmark, don't debate or argue with her about Landmark now, let her bring up the subject and when she does, gently discuss your concerns with her. Essentially, back off and wait for her to come down off the high and for the resistance to weaken some. Be prepared for "blocking" techniques that dismiss your information (you can search the board for more info on that). You have to be a welcoming place, or she won't want to come back and discuss it with you. If and when she wants to leave, then you'll be there and able to help her. Until then, you just have to stay in the game. She may never be ready to leave, in which case at some point you have to decide how much of this you can take. You have to take care of yourself too and not be a martyr. Unfortunately, the road out of Landmark is a lot longer and more uncertain than the road in.

That brings up a last point -- I would try to persuade her from signing up for more courses -- encourage her to take a break, don't go so fast, etc. While the "high" is working against you right now, the best thing going for you is that she is a "new inductee", and isn't as invested as many get. The best thing she has going for her is you -- a loving husband -- she just doesn't know it right now.

Keep learning and educating yourself. Get a support system for yourself (you have one here), because if you choose this fight, you will need it. Search this board for all the lessons you can get. It is a great resource. Keep us posted on how things go.

Blessings . . .

-lightwolf

Ether Dragon,

A couple of follow-up points. I just noticed that your post was on a thread I started, so it might be helpful to provide an update on my own situation.

I have maintained a friendship with my friend, and have taken the advice of others I found here as far as first establishing a safe place for her to be -- able to share her thoughts with me, non-judgmental, etc. It seems unfruitful at times, because my instinctive reaction would be to tell her what I think and feel directly, but as others point out here, that is pointless. I see what I'm doing as building a foundation -- the time will come to build on it.

The other thing is that I have looked for an external source of information that she will listen to. She won't listen to me directly, but she is a practicing Catholic. I am not, but I have looked to the Catholic church for teachings, writings, etc. that would show the contradictions between Landmark and Church teaching. In this way, I'm not the "bad guy", and she would have to say the Pope is running a racket. I have found some things that I am just starting to share with her. But she was receptive to these, so we shall see. Look for what she may listen to and work with that.

Also, talk to her other friends, the ones she was calling. Share what you are learning with them, so they don't get sucked in too. You may also gain some allies, or at least someone to talk to locally.

THERE IS HOPE.

-lightwolf