I "did" a number of Lifespring and also Bayard Hora courses a number of years ago. Both groups were extremely traumatic for me, but fifteen years after my last participation, I'm still wondering about some things:

What is the relationship between the values of such groups and real, healthy values and growth? I took part in the groups because they promised to help me be a more effective person. My sense of myself was (and to some extent is) that I am of value and have much to give, but that my succeeding in getting my unique contribution fully "into the world" has been limited. I thought the groups might help me in this way.

I came away from the groups feeling that the confrontative methods they used are not accessible to me. They shatter me.

Trying to practice "moving toward my fear", a method stressed by both groups, as well as many psychologists, sometimes leaves me paralyzed. I prefer a relaxed, conflict-free life, but life in this world definitely demands leaving one's comfort zone behind sometimes. I've seen myself do so, on occasion, when it's clearly become necessary.

I've also seen myself not rise, in situations in which to do so seems (in retrospect) to have been equally necessary. Rather than risk rejection on several occasions, I've gotten "stuck" for relatively long periods of time, or had other deleterious consequences.

Conventional forms of therapy have not enabled me to change what seems my basic nature. I think I would have been better served in my life if I had been able to be more proactive. Whatever one might think of the "large awareness group trainings", however, their efforts to shock me into change did not succeed. I simply became extremely conflicted and then, in one case "broke".

Sometimes I wonder whether the emphasis of these groups on how one "shows up", i.e. exclusively on the social & external aspect of life, put people who are naturally more introverted at a severe disadvantage.

On the other hand, it could be said that we are the ones who need the supplemental programs.

I find all my thinking about these groups even now, years later, to be latticed with such subtle nuances that it is difficult to draw conclusions. The groups do stress positive values I am (or say I am) interested in. And yet I don't approve of the confrontational and "totalitarian" (i.e. "total"--everything becomes related to the group) tactics. One quick example: In Lifespring, I remember, my Leadership Training coach would instruct us that "If someone you're trying to enroll gets angry at your aggressive approach, just apologize and keep going." The apology itself became simply a strategic instrument in the process of enrolling someone, and no longer had anything at all to do with remorse or the sense of having done something wrong or hurt someone. It was shocking and amazing to hear him so prostitute language and ethics, when I heard him do it on the phone--with my mom, yet!

And yet even now I think of the effectiveness and the other promises of the groups...yesterday I went to the link on this site to (Lifespring founder) John Hanley's home page, and I still felt the words glittering with either spiritual truth or some kind of "magic" counterfeit.

One final reason why it's difficult to be objective about these matters is the difficulty of looking truth in the face. The ego doesn't want to see the truth! We all have egos, of course. It's important in life to be able to look at oneself objecdtively and rather ruthlessly, I believe. That's obvious. But it doesn't make it easy!

I've rambled a bit. Please feel free to do so in your reply! Thank you for weighing in. I need as much feedback as I can get on this one!

Hello. I can relate to a lot of what you're saying here.

Two thoughts spring to mind:

1. Yes, introverted people are at a disadvantage in these things. Firstly, the true purpose of the damn things is to create salespeople for the courses, and introverts generally don't make good sales people. Secondly, the defining characteristic of introverts is that they re-charge their batteries by getting away from people then use up their energy dealing with people; extroverts are the opposite - they re-charge their batteries from other other people and lose energy when alone. So an introvert would naturally be more overwhelmed by the courses, where you are allowed no time alone.

2. You may have heard of the 'highly sensitive person' concept. It is not universally accepted as valid, but it is fairly sound, based on good peer-reviewed research that has recently become accepted or at least, acknowledged, in main-stream psychology. The basic idea is:

"a personality trait that affects as many as one out of every five people. According to Dr. Aron's definition, the Highly Sensitive Person (HSP) has a sensitive nervous system, is aware of subtleties in his/her surroundings, and is more easily overwhelmed when in a highly stimulating environment....... It also means you are more easily overwhelmed when you have been out in a highly stimulating environment for too long, bombarded by sights and sounds until you are exhausted." An HSP herself, Aron reassures other Highly Sensitives that they are quite normal. Their trait is not a flaw or a syndrome, nor is it a reason to brag. It is an asset they can learn to use and protect.
In defining the Highly Sensitive Person, Dr. Aron provides examples of characteristic behaviors, and these are reflected in the questions she typically asks patients or interview subjects:

Are you easily overwhelmed by such things as bright lights, strong smells, coarse fabrics, or sirens nearby?
Do you get rattled when you have a lot to do in a short amount of time?
Do you make a point of avoiding violent movies and TV shows?
Do you need to withdraw during busy days, into bed or a darkened room or some other place where you can have privacy and relief from the situation?
Do you make it a high priority to arrange your life to avoid upsetting or overwhelming situations?
Do you notice or enjoy delicate or fine scents, tastes, sounds, or works of art?
Do you have a rich and complex inner life?
When you were a child, did your parents or teachers see you as sensitive or shy?"


... another list:

Do you get overwhelmed by stimuli such as lights, noises, and smells?
Do other people’s moods and emotions deeply affect you?
Are you easily startled?
Do you become uneasy when someone is watching you complete a task?
Do you become tired easily after a “normal” day of activity?
Are you aware of other things in your environment that most other people are not aware of?
Do you become agitated or anxious when you have a lot of tasks to do and not enough time to complete all of them?
Do you avoid disturbing or violent movies, books, or T.V. shows?
Do you feel the need to escape and retreat when there is too much going on around you?
Are you deeply interested in the arts or music?
Do you dislike changes in your life?
Do you enjoy delicate tastes, scents, sounds, soft fabrics, or beautiful works of art?
Have you always been labeled as shy or sensitive by other people?
Are you overly conscientious?
Do you seem to be more sensitive to pain than other people?
Are you sensitive to certain foods such as foods containing caffeine, sugar or alcohol?
Do you become unpleasant when you are hungry?
Do you easily sense the energies of places or situations?
Are you easily touched by others' experience, stories of kindness, and courage?
Are you attracted to the deeper things such as spirituality, self-development and philosophy?
Do you need time alone?
Are your feelings easily bruised?
Do you have a vivid imagination?


I don't know if this fits you, but if you do have this trait and if you accept the theory of it, then it is to be expected that you would react particularly badly to the courses (like a canary in a mineshaft, setting off an alarm that the air is bad). It also means that a gentler approach would be more helpful than a ruthless one. You seem to be particualarly concerned about morality, and to have a lot of entelechy, a trait of gifted people. It makes me think that lifespring took a hammer to a lily blossom (or baby willow tree, if you are male and don't want to be a flower) and I am sorry about that.

I don't 100% buy into everything about hsp and am personally uncomfortable with the concept (it sounds a bit wimpy and embarrassing) but it is worth reading about.
If you do a google search you should get a few references, but here are the two sites I got the quotes from:

[www.sensitiveliving.com]
[www.hsperson.com]

I can understand how you're still drawn to some of the things promised by lifespring. I struggle to seperate the good and valid striving to be inspired and grow and improve my life and the world around me - from the lgat poison that is now associated with all those things. I would also like to hear what others have to say about this. I generally just do the opposite of what they did in the lgat - take small steps, make careful structured plans and goals (not damn intentions and manifestation bombs), gentle change, and so on. It eventually gets to me to where I'm going, and it doesn't kill me along the way. Order and planning, as opposed to magic solutions. The longing for magic I found is helped by using whole-brain thinking techniques - this article is aimed at gifted thinkers but I think it applies to anyone:

[www.newhorizons.org]


PS Corboy, if you are around, it would be really good if you could comment on the hsp concept, if you know anything about it, and specifically in relation to lgats. Your posts are very helpful, I don't usually comment on them but I do find them extremely helpful (your most recent message about shaming was really good, thank you).

Thank you, Saneagain. I feel validated by the things you say.
I've read a little "highly sensitive person" material (some time ago).
I will check out all the links you embedded

Hi Sane and Real:

I looked in on this thread precisely because it had the word 'introvert' in it.

The HSP concept seems a useful extension of the older concept of introvertism. I think it could be helpful, but I just hope whoever came up with HSP does some clinical testing and doesnt make the common mistake of turning the idea into a marketing hype device. Get it tested and find people who will use good research designs, double blind protocol etc.

It is because I am an introvert that I avoided getting involved with anything that remotely looked like an LGAT. The mere thought of being binned up in a room for hours with a large group of strangers made my skin crawl. The thought of having some authority figure yapping at us with a microphone revolted me.

And paying money to suffer that way?--hell no.

I attended just one rock concert in my entire life and spent the entire thing hunched over in agony, my fingers jammed into my ears. Its not that I disliked the music, but the noise level shredded me. When I listen to rock music on the radio, I keep the volume turned way down. When I attend street fairs, Ive learned to bring earplugs because the decibel level from the sound stage is usually set too loud for my comfort. And often I find I have to rip the labels out of T-shirts--damn things are rough and harsh to the back of my neck.

Am careful about what kinds of movies I see and go to very few, because I am easily over-wrought. Went to one of the Johnny Depp pirate movies with some fantastic friends, but that night, while I was asleep, images from the film kept flashing wierdly through my mind.

And as a school aged child, I would often slip away from play situations so as to get some alone time.

So yeah, I am an introvert. The one form of high stimulation I do enjoy is spicy food.

And to echo what Sane wrote, a career counselor I consulted said that introverts do not usually make good sales people. So an LGAT set up would be hell.

The career counselor also said that it seems introverts are a minority in relation to extroverts in the US. Look who was willing to take the risk of exploring and emigrating---extroverts.

Introvert kids have it tough in the US---we are stuck in school all day and forced to socialize. Hated grade school.

So, no LGATs for me. I had my culty experiences, but they took place via small group/one-on-one situations, rather than through extrovert set ups such as LGATs.

One can avoid LGATs and mass extrovert cult set ups, yet still blunder into culty set ups--one simply blunders into those cultic set ups that are compatible with introvertism.

(wry smile).

Small groups that are cultic (as in meeting Lifton's criteria) but are introvert compatible rarely make the news, precisely because they are smaller, dont make waves by recruiting in obnoxious ways, and emphasize privacy and secrecy. Esoteric study groups and smaller group psychotherapy cults would fit this definition.

Dunno if this is what Sane was hoping for..just some early evening musing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2008 09:43AM by corboy.

Very interesting, Corboy.

Are the small groups, fitting introverts' profiles, abusive, though?

Certainly (at least in my opinion) not all esoteric study groups are abusive.


I don't even know that the word "cult" necessarily has perjorative connotations.
I think that when I looked up the word in the dictionary, the first definition was something like "a small group whose members have shared beliefs." I should look it up again; it's been awhile.

On this site I know the use of the word may usually imply "destructive" or "abusive", because the site seems to be devoted to the wide swath of human damage some groups have demonstrably left in their wake.

I would be interested in hearing how a more "introvert-tailored" group can be abusive...although, come to think of it, it's pretty obvious, and I have been in an informal small group that became like that.

Thank you for sharing.

Oops, Cordoy!
I see you already anticipated the "destructive" and "cultic", or non-destructive differences in small groups. I don't know about Lifton's criteria...can you give me a link, or a paste-in?

Just go to the search window on the home page for culteducation.com, type in 'lifton' and you'll get plenty of things, including this:

[www.culteducation.com]

C