Whenever I criticise Landmark, my friend always comes back to me with "the Landmark technology has made such a difference for me in my life" (he'll then go on to list the things he got out of doing the courses, like how he doubled his income, reunited his astranged family members etc) "so no one can ever convince me that it's bad. That's the bottom line for me."

Does anyone know how I can reply to this? I really don't feel like I can reply to this because I find myself thinking "well if he hadn't ever done the courses, then those things wouldn't have happened for him."

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Dynamix
Whenever I criticise Landmark, my friend always comes back to me with "the Landmark technology has made such a difference for me in my life" (he'll then go on to list the things he got out of doing the courses, like how he doubled his income, reunited his astranged family members etc) "so no one can ever convince me that it's bad. That's the bottom line for me."

Does anyone know how I can reply to this? I really don't feel like I can reply to this because I find myself thinking "well if he hadn't ever done the courses, then those things wouldn't have happened for him."

There is no doubt that some people benefits from an introspection exercise in their life, as for your friend. However, the same positive outcomes would probably have occured should he have read a self-help book like "The Power of Now" for example (even better is to see a professional psychologist). The difference between Landmark indoctrination and self-help by reading a book or seeking professional help is that Landmark also have a clear agenda of turning participants into deployable agents - no matter what they say- something that would be considered unethical for a professional therapist. This is the deceptive part that alters the personality in a subtle, insidious and a profound way. It aslo creates confrontations with friends and family members who will not fall for the Landmark rhetoric, as so many of us have experienced. For those who get hoocked by Landmark (take advanced courses like the ILP), the peer pressure is intense to recruit new members as if your life depends on it. This search for "empowerment" can actually lead to all sorts of disorder (this is well documented), even suicide (the last one I know about was an ILP participant, he killed himself earlier this year in Toronto, but as Landmarkians say "That's his problem!".)

The bottom line is this:

I understand that Landmark takes credit for some positive outcomes (although this is arguable and calls for a psycho-social analysis for the individual and it's family members, friends workplace ... over an extended period of time to be conclusive).

However, there is a big WALL between Landmark boosters (your friend and others) and Landmark knockers (me and most people on this website). This is a real problem with boosters and knockers in two opposite camps (inside or outside the group) and this is why so many people will label Landmark as being a "cult".

Also, for the past 30 years, EST and Landmark have a history of bad publicity, confrontation, litigation, family breakups, suicide and even murder cases (in France). If those people who have developed the Landmark pseudo-technology cannot take any "responsibility" for all the problems that they create, it means that they are not being AUTHENTIC according to their own definition! This defies logic and it is an ULTIMATE CONTRADICTION. It shows clearly that the system is defective and explains our position as knockers.

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Dynamix
Whenever I criticise Landmark, my friend always comes back to me with "the Landmark technology has made such a difference for me in my life" (he'll then go on to list the things he got out of doing the courses, like how he doubled his income, reunited his astranged family members etc) "so no one can ever convince me that it's bad. That's the bottom line for me."

Does anyone know how I can reply to this? I really don't feel like I can reply to this because I find myself thinking "well if he hadn't ever done the courses, then those things wouldn't have happened for him."

I might suggest (gently) that it's not "technology." They only call it "technology" because that's what L. Ron Hubbard called his collection of tricks and tactics and Werner Erhard learned it from him. It's no more "technology" than scientology is science, but the word hits home with certain people for various reasons. So-called "buzz words" or jargon words strike a particular cord and once they are "discovered" and used to convey some meaning apart from their conventional meaning take on a life of their own.

Your friend sounds hypnotized or completely taken in by the Landmark formula of repeating something so many times that he's accepted it as truth. Nevertheless, he's managed to accomplish certain things because Landmark programs or Landmarkers encouraged him to do so. Within its "content" is some basic psycho-therapeutic and motivational stuff that most people would benefit from. They use what is of general value and easily obtained elsewhere and insinuate the Landmark "brand" into it. L. Ron Hubbard learned quickly that people would be forever grateful and credit him with whatever they were able to accomplish if he provided non-judgmental, concerned, and sympathetic attention, which is what "auditing" is. And providing it without the stigma of counselling or psychotherapy and slapping on some mysterious, sci-fi label along with a bogus, lie-detector-type device was his ticket to wealth and adulation. Werner Erhard was smart enough to see the potential in selling something that cost him nothing. He was just another in a long, long line of scammers to make money selling "a piece of blue sky." Just so much "hope-in-a-jar," but hope is in short supply for those desperate enough or unimaginative enough to attend $400 Amway-type seminars in search of ways to improve their lives.


Ellen

Nutty...i think you should go with your instinct on this one. I have to say that everyone can be a bit reactionary on this site. I did some research on Rick Ross and he is an evangelical Christian with his own agenda....only God can save you see. I did the forum a few ago and i found it really helpful....there was nothing sinister about it at all. I am currently doing research into human potential raising movements....and there is a lot out there...Landmark is just one course. I can understand how someone would rave about it and want everyone they care for, to do it......because it is just one of the many life improving experiences out there. Anyway i hope it works out....i just wanted to temper the scaremongering on here with my own positive experience of the course you mention.

Pay careful attention to his claims, as well.

While it may be true that things improved after he did LEC courses, it may also be true that this didn't really happen...that he's "stretching" the truth a bit. One thing Landmark does very well is to convince people that every good thing that happens is because of Landmark (while every bad thing that happens is because of the person's own "racket").

My friend began to attribute all his lifelong success to Landmark, even though he'd been successful for years and years prior to his involvement. And he also claimed that he "had a million dollars" thanks to Landmark, but in conversation I realized he'd actually taken on a million-dollar mortgage -- debt, not earnings -- the opposite of what he was claiming.

I've also chatted with people who claim their earnings doubled thanks to Landmark, but then it turns out it doubled from where it was 10 or 20 years ago. Well, yeah, pretty much everyone's income does that given enough time!

I am trying to get my view onto this message board, but can't.

To the moderater"Why?" It is not really a message board at all, if only selected messages can be posted on here.

Be fair.
Why can't good messages about LEC be posted here.?I had a very positive experience of the course. It is no cult. These remarks on here are hysterical and misinformed.

Nutty - sorry for my late reply.

How did you go with the Exit Counsellor?

In one way I'm hesitating to give you how things happened for us because each case is different but here goes:

* 26 Sept 2003 - Girlfriend enters Landmark Forum

* Early Oct 2003 - She breaks up with me and dates a guy she did the Forum with

* Mid Oct 2003 - My appeal for her to leave LE and the guy. She insists we were never a couple, (an attempt on her part to re-write or re-create history with a new meaning. This new meaning to our relationship persisted through to the end of 2004, early 2005).

* 1 Nov 2003 - She enters LE Advanced Course. Rings me on the 2nd day telling me she has left the guy and promises she will never see him again. (This was part of an Advanced Course exercise - she had a coach by her side while she was phoning me). She however does see the guy occassionally right up to March 2005 though it was innocent. He had moved on but she still "loved" him.

* 8 Nov 2003 - She asks me to help her get out of Landmark

* Mid Nov 2003 - Enrols in LE SELP Course through pressure and against her will.

* 5 Dec 2003 - Commits to leaving LE and asks me to write letter to LE to stop them bagering her

(at this point all she realises is that she did not like the presure of LE but is still completely brainwashed exibiting all standard LE behaviours)

* 23 Feb 2004 - I pass to her a document written by a local Uniting CHurch Minister explaining how the philosophy of Landmark is about "being God", creating all possibilities. This document made her realise that the philosophy of Landmark was counter to her religious beliefs. (I have this doc in MS Word format). Over a course of weeks I passed to her more documents - Singers 6 Conditions and the Lipton Model. By this stage she is anti Landmark but unaware she is brainwashed and still acting in accordance with Landmark behaviour and linguistics.

* Feb 2004 to Sept 2004 - Although during this time she realises Landmark is bad, she resists notions that she is brainwashed.

* Oct 2004 - I passed to her this document, the one you requested:
Pathology as "Personal Growth": A Participant-Observation Study of Lifespring Training
by Janice Haaken and Richard Adams
PSYCHIATRY, Vol 46, August 1983[/color:db07bacdba]

[perso.wanadoo.fr]

This document upset her deeply as she recongnised 95% of the Lifespring techniques were used on her in Landmark. She now realises she was brainwashed but is still unable to pinpoint her behaviour and thought processes as being LE induced.

Nov 2004 to Jan 2005 - Still in denial about her behavour and resisting my sugestions to re-learn about reality and to recognise the faulty constructs of LE.

* 26 Jan 2005 - Turning point - seeks help from the Church with me. Denial defence mechanisms are gone

* Feb 2005 to June 2005 - Progressive improvements, LE linguistics diminish, ability to reason increases, moral and former religious beliefs are reconsolidated.

* 5 July 2005 - She falls in love with me again. She is 99% recovered. The occassional LE word shows up. However, she does not feel safe to revisit LE teaching to full debunk residual brainwashing. I figure she is stil traumatised by the Forum and Advanced Course back in Sept - Nov 2003.

WARNING - your road map may well be different.

Oz

Through an amazing coincidence my girlfriend read this page on her own computer and confronted me, reasonably, about it. I haven't visited the counselor as we're now going to attend together. Not that Jane thinks this is worth it but she's prepared to do it for me and our relationship. Even when I spoke to the counselor on the phone he didn't think she had much of a problem as she leaves 2 years between seminars. She knows I'm still not keen. I think the session should be good for us but I won't be writing on here as I promised her I wouldn't for now.
Thanks for everyone's support.
N

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Concerned Oz
I pass to her a document written by a local Uniting CHurch Minister explaining how the philosophy of Landmark is about "being God", creating all possibilities.

Oz,

Would you be willing to e-mail me this document? I can't pm you because of my newness on the board.

I appeciate your transparent posts on many threads here. You've been through the whole process and had success. That provides some hope to go with the realism that needs to be there too. I've discussed this exact issue of who has the power to really "create" with my friend (my situation is on another thread). It didn't have much impact (I got the "blocking" technique -- smile and nod -- that others have mentioned elsewhere here), but I'd like to have it to compare notes and have something for use later when the time is right. Now I'm just concentrating on the loving/supporting piece.

Thanks for all the help you have provided on this board. You've helped me already.

-lightwolf

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