Just a thought, nutty, to add to your list:

If you didn't know her before her Landmark "conversion," you probably don't really know her. You might be surprised to find a stranger.

With a "complete personality change" is how many people describe their returning friends or loved ones who "graduate" from these "programs."

One of the most highly regarded and researched books written at the time these programs began is subtitled, "America's Epidemic of Sudden Personality Change."

If you want to read Conway and Seigelman's "Snapping," find an earlier edition with the parts about "est" included. My copy lists it on the cover, with the Hare Krishna, Manson family, and Children of God, among others. They considered Werner Erhard's "est" to be in the same league as far as many of the techniques used to seduce, indoctrinate, and "transform."



Ellen

That is a good point which I take on board Elena. I imagine the real girl is slightly less confident and not so forceful of opinion but the intelligence that I love must still be there. She is still in touch with many people from her youth and is on good terms with her family. She tells me which of her friends are Landmarkians and it's really only 2 plus she sometimes speaks to the person who recruited her. She is on a seminar course at the moment which will finish before Christmas. She did the ILP two years ago but has refused to lead a seminar as she can't commit the time, she doesn't do 'volunteering' either. Once this couse has finished she plans to stop, I hope she still feels that way after the final session. I really appreciate people's input on this forum and as events unfold I will continue to use this as sounding board. I will continue to check out any further advice that crops up along the way
Thank you

Nutty - I got my girlfriend out and the following helped.

My difference is I knew her before she went in.

There are two keys to switching on her reasoning processes.

First Key:
1. Pass to her Singer's 6 Conditions of Thought Reform and the Lipton Model.

2. Pass to her the study on Lifespring done by a Sociologist and Freudian Psychologist.

You can get links to all these resources if you search on my name in this board or the corresponding sections in the RR database.

The beauty of these documents is that they don't mention Landmark so her Landmark infused Ego may not create defence mechanisms, (denial), as these documents are generic but specific enough for her to recognise patterns and techniques used in Landmark.

Second key:
If you manage to get somewhere with the first key and you know what her belief systems were before she got involved in Landmark, you can illustrate theologically and philisophically how landmark ideology is non compatible. Ie: Landmark contradicts basic Jewish/Christian and Buddhist doctrine, (it actually contradicts most reasonable philosophies and belief systems).

This is a tough mission you are embarking on.

Hope this helps,
Oz

Oz, thank you for your advice.
I was already gathering the right kind of documents but I'm not sure how to get them in front of her without a conflict. I do have a route in though.
How bad was your girlfriend? How long did it take you to make her think properly again? Any extra information would be great.
Mine really doesn't seem that bad, she likes to think things through and is actually sceptical about some aspects of LE. She is still a Christian too.
I know I've got a tough task ahead but I feel like I have more chance than some of the poor guys on here did.
OK, I'm speaking to an exit counselor today to get an extended strategy together. I have the Singer document but if I can't work out how to get the psychological analysis of the site I might ask for your help again.
Cheers Oz
N

Quote
nutty
. She is still a Christian too.

Look at the Book of Job in the Bible. It deals with Victimization vs Empowerment. The conclusion from the Book of Job is in clear contradiction with the philosophy of Landmark (empowerment - taking full responsibility for EVERYTHING). God said Job was "not responsible" for all the misery he had gone through. Say that to a Landmark leader!

Maybe if she reads through, she will start to realize Landmark is in conflict with her Christian faith, and that might help.

Nice idea Midonov (is it Mike?) I think I have a way to use that one. I am so grateful for everyone's support on here. I, like you, will continue to fight the fight after this episode is over. Hopefully I can help other people as much as you are helping me. For now as I start to use my routes in to regenerating critical reasoning in this area I will be sure to feedback on what worked and what didn't
Thank you
N

Hi Nutty,

You are wise to carefully investigate all this.
Mistakes that I'd made:

1) I did not recognize, until too late, how much of his statements were internalized cult-script.

2) I made connections for him. (wrong!)

3) As I'd learned afterwards, the thing to do is slowly ask questions, appear interested and get her to talk w/ you. Then very very gently ask her questions that will cause her to think and question this paradigm. You have to do this very carefully, as if you are too direct, she will become defensive and alientate herself from you.

I think if I'd done things properly, then I could've succeeded w/ my ex-partner. My cult understanding came after an emotionally excrutitating break up... 'smoke damage'.

Even w/o attending the LGAT yourself, you will still be affected from the 2nd hand effects, mixed messages, etc of the devotee. The smoke damage is as definable as a fog, but it is real. Just a word of caution for you.

May be helpful:

[www.culteducation.com]

[www.culteducation.com]

Good luck!
t

Thanks Toni, I feel like I'm doing everything right just now. I do recognise a lot of her Landmark terms but I don't understand what you mean by smoke damage. Looking at this site everyday keeps me pretty safe because the whole prospect of mind control scares me, my mind's my best feature.
She tells me about landmark a lot but hasn't given me the hard sell for a few weeks. What soft sell tactics should I be wary of? A few people have mentioned this.
Thanks for your help
N

Hi N:

The "smoke damage" comes when any normal-type relationships issues are twisted against you, and your opinion is invalidated by the cult script.

You're not to that part of the relationship yet. Hopefully, you'll miss it.

Good luck! :D

Quote
nutty
Thanks Toni, I feel like I'm doing everything right just now. I do recognise a lot of her Landmark terms but I don't understand what you mean by smoke damage. Looking at this site everyday keeps me pretty safe because the whole prospect of mind control scares me, my mind's my best feature.
She tells me about landmark a lot but hasn't given me the hard sell for a few weeks. What soft sell tactics should I be wary of? A few people have mentioned this.
Thanks for your help
N

Though Landmark trains and utilizes both hard and soft sales techniques, they know the soft ones are always preferable, as with anything other sales job. They take more skill and finesse and work better when the "mark" or "prospect" thinks he is in control or it was his own idea to attend. It's about seduction, remember.

She might attempt to lure you in by appearing so happy and excited and enthusiastic you'll be curious about it. She might look into your eyes for extended periods of time. She might probe for vulnerabilities she can use later as leverage. She will probably always try to look her best and appear supremely confident in whatever she says, as this is part of basic sales training, smile-and-a-shoeshine stuff. Werner Erhard was a salesman. Long term Landmarkers groom and prepare and rehearse as though they were going on stage. Mostly, it's about acting. Acting as though they care about you. Acting in the way most likely to get whatever it is that they want, which is their measure of success - that is, how good they are at getting other people to do, think, and believe as they want them to for their own benefit. In other words, manipulation. Landmark's is a narcissistic view that other people only exist as "supporting cast," props, or resource. A Landmarker may likely believe that you are only a projection or reflection of his own mind, and when that reflection displeases him, the best thing to do is dispose of it.


Ellen